The war for souls

[mikekle]

In the bible, it says not many people will make it to heaven, this has been bothering me alot lately, as I know Satan and God are in a type of war for humans souls, and I find it odd the bible even mentions this.

So, hypothetically, when all is said and done, at the end times, Satan will have ‘won’ more souls than God has, meaning the larger percentage of humans chose to follow Satan instead of God…This just sounds strange to me, as it says in the end God will defeat Satan, but if look at it terms of numbers of souls, Satan will have won, since he was able to corrupt the majority of people.

This is strange in itself, but if you go deeper, I find it disturbing Satan even has this power to gain souls, just like God does, after all, Satan is/was just an Angel(he is NOT a God, but seems to possess the same powers over people that God does), but it seems to me, once he fell and went against God, He was suddenly given much more power than he had originally, it also begs the question, if Satan and third of the angels he corrupted fell, is it possible for more angels to do the same? What would happen if another angel decided to do the same thing Satan did now? Would that angel also be given power of influence of humans, would he also be given the ability to gain souls for himself too?

 

[Mary_Ellen]

No, the angels have all made their choice - for or against God. I can’t explain it as well as Aquinas but as I understand it once their minds were made up it’s a permanent choice - they don’t change their minds. It’s not that they can’t - it’s that they don’t because of the way they reason with their minds.

 

[JerryZ]

Satan cannot win for the simple reason that he even though a powerful spirit is non the less a CREATED being.

He did not create himself he owes his existence to GOD.

Yes he is in a kind of warfare against GOD pretty much like the atheists are also on the same camp.
It’s a hopeless cause “theirs”

Peace

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Satan cannot win for the simple reason that he even though a powerful spirit is non the less a CREATED being.

He did not create himself he owes his existence to GOD.

Yes he is in a kind of warfare against GOD pretty much like the atheists are also on the same camp.
It’s a hopeless cause “theirs”

Peace

I think the first part of the OPs question is really good though.

If we go by numbers of souls damned vs saved, it would appear Satan has the upperhand in winning over more souls, because his way is so easy. But in a way, is this not in some way a win, even if hes just a created being? In fact in some morbid way that is more “impressive” that a lower being can possess so much power in damning souls.

 

[MPat]

I think the first part of the OPs question is really good though.

If we go by numbers of souls damned vs saved, it would appear Satan has the upperhand in winning over more souls, because his way is so easy. But in a way, is this not in some way a win, even if hes just a created being? In fact in some morbid way that is more “impressive” that a lower being can possess so much power in damning souls.

Well, how do we decide who won in other cases…?

For example, Kieseritzky captured more pieces than Anderssen in the “Immortal Game”. Does it mean that he won? Or “won in some way”…? No, for in the end it is checkmate that decides the victory in chess.

Or, for another example, during WW2 Soviet causalities were higher than Wehrmach causalities. Does it mean that defendants at Nuremberg Trials were busy congratulating each other with a victory…? No, Germany still had to surrender unconditionally and many of those defendants ended up with a death penalty.

And likewise, burning in hell is not much of a victory, even if one has a big company…

Finally, perhaps it should be mentioned that some theologians seem to interpret those Bible verses differently…

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Well, how do we decide who won in other cases…?

For example, Kieseritzky captured more pieces than Anderssen in the “Immortal Game”. Does it mean that he won? Or “won in some way”…? No, for in the end it is checkmate that decides the victory in chess.

Or, for another example, during WW2 Soviet causalities were higher than Wehrmach causalities. Does it mean that defendants at Nuremberg Trials were busy congratulating each other with a victory…? No, Germany still had to surrender unconditionally and many of those defendants ended up with a death penalty.

And likewise, burning in hell is not much of a victory, even if one has a big company…

Finally, perhaps it should be mentioned that some theologians seem to interpret those Bible verses differently…

The analogies seem a little off. Id compare Satan and his minions as more suicide bombers. A suicide bombers goal is to kill as many as possible, even if he dies with them. If that is his goal and he accomplishes it, then he succeeded.

 

[Nita]

The analogies seem a little off. Id compare Satan and his minions as more suicide bombers. A suicide bombers goal is to kill as many as possible, even if he dies with them. If that is his goal and he accomplishes it, then he succeeded.

“Winning” one or more bombing missions does not equal winning the war. And I think that is part of what MPat was showing thru the analogies. Winning a particular battle is only a short term goal, meant to serve the primary goal of winning the war. God wins the war.

I liked her analogies.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

I have been considering this lately as well. But really do you really think anyone in hell will be more miserable than satan? Another way to look at it this: when demons in hell torment souls they inadvertently serve God’s justice. Even when satan wins he still loses. And God died on a tree. Even when God “loses” he still wins.

 

[Nita]

In the bible, it says not many people will make it to heaven, this has been bothering me alot lately,

Are you referring to the following Scripture passage:Mt. 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. If so, I suggest you consider that it’s not the gate we “enter by” but** the gate we exit by **(where we are when we exist this world - die) that determines our eternal destiny. There are probably many of us here on CAF who at one time or another entered the wide gate because it was easier, but later repented and chose to switch to the narrow gate. I think there probably are very few that enter the narrow gate and never leave that path - never commit a mortal sin after Baptism.

As to what Scripture says about how many are in heaven, here is what God showed St. John, (90’s AD) in a vision of heaven:
Rev. 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!”

this has been bothering me alot lately

When you start to get bothered, read again the above passage from Rev. 7:9-10. Ponder it; memorize it.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

“Winning” one or more bombing missions does not equal winning the war. And I think that is part of what MPat was showing thru the analogies. Winning a particular battle is only a short term goal, meant to serve the primary goal of winning the war. God wins the war.

I liked her analogies.

At the end of time, there will be more souls lost than saved. Jesus says that. Isnt that what satan wants, to damn as many souls as possible?

Jesus thirsts for souls to be saved, and yet satan is snatching the majority from Him.

 

[Nita]

At the end of time, there will be more souls lost than saved. Jesus says that. Isnt that what satan wants, to damn as many souls as possible?

Jesus thirsts for souls to be saved, and yet satan is snatching the majority from Him.

Where does Jesus say there will be more souls lost than saved? If you’re basing that solely on the words of Our Lord in Mt. 7:13-14, please see my response in the previous post #9.

There is a similar passage at the start of Luke 13:23 -30:13:23 And some one said to him,** “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” **And he said to them, 13:24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 13:25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, I do not know where you come from.’ 13:26 Then you will begin to say, We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 13:27 But he will say, I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 13:28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out. 13:29 And men will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of God. 13:30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.” Notice how Jesus does not give a direct answer — He does not say “Yes.” The answer He gives regarding exclusion from heaven (thru the parable) is directed towards the Jews, and He then speaks of gentiles ("men from east and west, …) being saved.

Yes, satan hates us and would like to see us damned. But Satan’s rebellion/war was with God - to unseat God, so to speak, and become God. He lost his war.

 

[Nita]

So, hypothetically, when all is said and done, at the end times, Satan will have ‘won’ more souls than God has, meaning the larger percentage of humans chose to follow Satan instead of God…This just sounds strange to me, as it says in the end God will defeat Satan, but if look at it terms of numbers of souls, Satan will have won, since he was able to corrupt the majority of people.

Satan does not corrupt our soul. God has not granted him the power to take over our will, and he can do only as much as God allows him to do. He can tempt us to choose what is corrupt, but it is only we, ourselves, who can corrupt our souls by choosing to do what is corrupt.

Satan is already defeated. It is up to us to choose to follow God’s will (rather than our own when it desires something contrary to God’s will) so we do not end up defeated like Satan.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

I also see it as God owning a business, Satan tried to take it over and God fires him for it.

Then Satan opens his own business and steals all of Gods customers.

Sounds like hes winning, but then God comes with a bulldozer and levels satans business and then remodels His own to be bigger and better? Is that more of how to look at it?

 

[steve_b]

Where does Jesus say there will be more souls lost than saved? If you’re basing that solely on the words of Our Lord in Mt. 7:13-14, please see my response in the previous post #9.

There is a similar passage at the start of Luke 13:23 -30:
13:23 And some one said to him,** “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” **And he said to them, 13:24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 13:25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, I do not know where you come from.’ 13:26 Then you will begin to say, We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 13:27 But he will say, I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 13:28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out. 13:29 And men will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of God. 13:30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”
Notice how Jesus does not give a direct answer — He does not say “Yes.” The answer He gives regarding exclusion from heaven (thru the parable) is directed towards the Jews, and He then speaks of gentiles ("men from east and west, …) being saved.

Yes, satan hates us and would like to see us damned. But Satan’s rebellion/war was with God - to unseat God, so to speak, and become God. He lost his war.

I think the analogy Jesus uses is clear. Few are on the road to heaven, many are on the road to perdition.

That doesn’t mean Jesus doesn’t “win”. His work that He did was meant for everyone. However He forces no one onto the narrow or wide road. We choose that. It’s like the OT proposition

**Dt 30:**19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life…

Now on the surface that seems like a no-brainer proposition and choice. Does anyone really have to be coaxed into picking life and blessings over death and curses? One would think It takes a fool to choose death and curses. But people do choose wrongly. Even after multiple warnings to avoid mortal sin Galatians 5:19-21 people still commit them inspite of dire consequences

There’s no reason to create hell and scare people of it, if it’s only Satan and his demons that it is meant for… God can’t lie, and He doesn’t scare people that they won’t inherit heaven if they die in mortal sin if that isn’t really true…

 

[Nita]

…
There’s no reason to create hell and scare people of it, if it’s only Satan and his demons that it is meant for… God can’t lie, and He doesn’t scare people that they won’t inherit heaven if they die in mortal sin if that isn’t really true…

I certainly did not mean to imply that only Satan and the fallen angels are in hell and that no humans go there.

Jesus says few enter the narrow gate, but He never explicitly says there are few in heaven. The gate is not the same thing as heaven. In regards to what Scripture does say about how many are in heaven, I’ll refer you to the Revelation passage that I cited:Rev. 7:9 After this I looked, and behold,** a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues**, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, Do you consider that a great multitude should be understood as only a few?

 

[BOSS10L]

Satan cannot win for the simple reason that he even though a powerful spirit is non the less a CREATED being.

He did not create himself he owes his existence to GOD.

Yes he is in a kind of warfare against GOD pretty much like the atheists are also on the same camp.
It’s a hopeless cause “theirs”

Peace

We atheists can’t have a war with something that doesn’t exist. For the billionth time, (true) atheists aren’t on the side of evil/Satan/etc. We don’t believe in anything supernatural: good, evil, or otherwise.

And if, by some crazy stretch there does happen to be a higher power, I would tend to think that it would look much more favorably on atheists who care for their fellow humans than those believers who do nothing but spew hate.

Peace be upon you. We may have different ideologies, but we are still brothers.

 

[BOSS10L]

I also see it as God owning a business, Satan tried to take it over and God fires him for it.

Then Satan opens his own business and steals all of Gods customers.

Sounds like hes winning, but then God comes with a bulldozer and levels satans business and then remodels His own to be bigger and better? Is that more of how to look at it?

I think a deeper question would be: why would an all knowing, all loving, all good God put his children in such a situation in the first place? For a supreme being, he certainly has far too many petty human traits. YMMV.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

I think a deeper question would be: why would an all knowing, all loving, all good God put his children in such a situation in the first place? For a supreme being, he certainly has far too many petty human traits. YMMV.

I asked the same question in another thread earlier today. Im still trying to understand myself.

 

[steve_b]

I certainly did not mean to imply that only Satan and the fallen angels are in hell and that no humans go there.

Jesus says few enter the narrow gate, but He never explicitly says there are few in heaven. The gate is not the same thing as heaven. In regards to what Scripture does say about how many are in heaven, I’ll refer you to the Revelation passage that I cited:

What do you think the narrow gate provides entrance to?
N:

Rev. 7:9 After this I looked, and behold,** a great multitude **which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Do you consider that a great multitude should be understood as only a few?

Over millions maybe billions of years, a few people (comparitatively speaking) in each generation who find the narrow gate, add up to quite a multitude after all that time.

However, those are great in numbers who find the wide gate…to perdition, how many do you think THAT adds up to? …

 

[fred_conty]

I think a deeper question would be: why would an all knowing, all loving, all good God put his children in such a situation in the first place? For a supreme being, he certainly has far too many petty human traits. YMMV.

Boss10L,
Interesting comments. Especially about atheists being so generous with their fellow man. That comment tells me that you really aren’t atheistic in belief. For it dosen’t follow logically. Because given that there is no divine being, why would someone not just steal, lie, cheat, murder, for their own gain now because there is nothing after death. To me it just dosen’t make good reasoning. So if someone says to me they are atheistic in belief and yet I see them as good toward others, then they are not really being honest with themselves.
Even St. Paul says something like that when he says, if Christ had not arisen, then our faith is indeed for nothing. And I think St. Paul would say also that if there is no God, then indeed what good we do toward others is indeed for nothing. So I believe that atheists are extreemly few tho there may be a number who profess that they are, but they aren’t in their heart which is pudding’s proof.

And the other comment: “why would an all knowing, all loving, all good God put his children in such a situation in the first place?” I believe we put ourselves there, that is when we don’t follow God’s loving instructions. For if God truely didn’t care, he would not even mess with us but just let us sink in our own natural way. I read everyday about murder(s) in the daily newspaper in our city. God(Jesus) tells us to love one another, even our enemies, and he even goes further by hanging on a crucifix for three hours to show us what love is and how much he does care for us. Yet, who still does the murdering? Just think how great and wonderful our world would be if everyone watched out for everyone else. That is what Jesus advocates. And that is what he himself did. I believe what has happened to our worldly neighborhood is that it has become a getto the same way every other getto is made, by ignoring our loving God, Jesus, and obeying the devil’s command, do it to others before they do it to you.

Just some thoughts.
May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.