The War on Women

[francisca]

Her cohabitant must take financial responsibilty for the kids, i wonder that she does not insist to bring him to financial responsibility.
I agreed to help to some extend because she is beautiful woman and she lived a life not in vain on this earth.
But I am not going to do it forever. And it’s really strange that the father is so easy ran away from his liability.
But in the case of government support i think that the family is the basis , the foundation of any country, any nation.
With regard to assistance to such mothers I believe that the government does not care for the family institution enough. If they can not tax the oligarchs then let them tax us the old bachelors, or let them find means by other means. You can not support the state not supporting a family
No country and no nation can be built without a family.

If the father of the children is still alive, then they’re his responsibility. The fact that fathers like him walk away from responsibility then women like her becomes burden for the state.

The fact that many family broken nowadays because we experience degradation in morality regarding sexual behavior. Despite it’s private nature, actually, sexual morality is in the state interest to improvefor the sake of family life. Porn and sex business is making money at the cost of general public who pay it with their marriage and broken family. Goverments receive tax income from these business should counter-campaign against porn and sex business for the sake of the people & state’s own capability to survive the future.

The future ramification with sexual immorality: broken family & the rise of the use of drugs and alcohol among young (and old) people, will affect mental health and the quality and capability of this generation to think (for now) and build the future.

I do not know what’s your relationship with this beautiful young woman, neither hers with her cohabitant, so… I can’t give any advice in this area

Nobody can prevent neither coerce any men from or to spend their money. How a man spend their money whether for their own family or for other things, men responsible fully their choices. Unlike women like her, who are in need of money, the owners of money (the men) have full freedom to choose how to spend their money. So these men are responsible fully their choices, as compared to women in similar situation like hers.

 

[vz71]

If the father of the children is still alive, then they’re his responsibility.

I thought children were the responsibility of the parents.
Both mother and father. Not just the father.

 

[Athanasiy]

I can support up to a certain time and on a certain level.
A young woman with three children is respected, because many girls of her age do not think about motherhood yet.
She left her children with her mother(that is, a grandmother) and moved to the city in search of a better life and earnings.
Good Luck. Good Luck.
Hopefully the youth and beauty will succeed.
And if any troubles- she always knows my phone.
You see today we measure life in a completely different dimension.
First is education, a well-paid job, and only then -to start a family.
By this logic, everything should go well.
But in the case of the young woman it turned out that she can not keep up with the community with its costs.
And frankly hard to believe in prospects in life if from the beginning it all went awry

 

[francisca]

I thought children were the responsibility of the parents.
Both mother and father. Not just the father.

So true.

 

[francisca]

I can support up to a certain time and on a certain level.
A young woman with three children is respected, because many girls of her age do not think about motherhood yet.
She left her children with her mother(that is, a grandmother) and moved to the city in search of a better life and earnings.
Good Luck. Good Luck.
Hopefully the youth and beauty will succeed.
And if any troubles- she always knows my phone.
You see today we measure life in a completely different dimension.
First is education, a well-paid job, and only then -to start a family.
By this logic, everything should go well.
But in the case of the young woman it turned out that she can not keep up with the community with its costs.
And frankly hard to believe in prospects in life if from the beginning it all went awry

In the end, beautiful young women married early because of social pressure too. Immaturity/ being naive combine with oversexualized culture push women like her to early child-bearing/ early-marriage without enough education, then she has to feed the family as a single mother when her man decide to walk off probably for another beautiful woman. This typical problem has no end. When men doesn’t respect women, faithfulness means nothing even in religious/ puritan culture. The reason for this is because all men born of a woman. Unability to respect women will drive the whole culture down regardless religion/ philosophical-theological definitions/ culture, because when humanity doesn’t respect women, it can’t respect it’s own essence: nowadays measure: love, marriage, loyalty to family/ wife is no more important as compared to money and power first.

 

[Athanasiy]

Women are also in large degree involved in the hyper-sexualization of culture by dressing very provocatively

 

[vz71]

 

[Midwest88]

Remember also that some people are impervious to reason.

Pretty much this.

I use to be a social “progressive” and I consider myself very in-tune with the feelings and mentality that is often times common in the pro-choice crowd. I will admit, many who are pro-choice just spew out talking points and feelings. Just look at the slogans demanding a more “equal” world.

#BlackLivesMatter
#LoveIsLove
#Equality
#Choice

To get a glimpse of the pro-choice movement and their mentality:

pinterest.com/lnrkat/pro-choice-slogans/

There are common patterns in social “progressive” speech when protesting is the words they use. “No regrets,” to “ignorant/ignorance.” Their irritation of conservative social views so they pull the "this is the 21st century … " They think that abortion and other social “progressive” issues are a no-brainer that should’ve be legalized years ago without much opposition. Now that’s hubris if not downright disrespect. Many of those that scream the loudest were never a true victim. They’re just bored and non-reflective.

Here’s my response to the “no regret” crowd.

I support then 2nd Amendment and I don’t regret it even though mass shootings have happened.
I don’t support Amnesty and the automatic citizenship to illegal immigrants. Their plight in Mexico really has no effect on whether I should support their illegal status.
I don’t support Obergefell v Hodges. I don’t feel guilt even though a family member of mine is a homosexual and that I have non-straight friends.
I don’t support abortion on demand, or even abortion. I am not phased by the “coat hanger” meme.

If they are unapologetic about their stances then I suggest to be as unapologetic about one’s “backward” stances. What we’re dealing with are downright selfish people - those that show up at rallies and hold signs with tired-old pathetic slogans. And they will admit to their selfishness, and with that at least they’re honest.

 

[Midwest88]

Both my sons delivered pizzas, and they told me the most expensive satellite TV sports packages could be found in the poor sections of town. Besides, B/C pills are available free from PP. With the introduction of politically correct victimhood as a vocation, whole new horizons were opened up. Ordinary complaining became an academic endeavor. Protests against “inequality” naturally come to be seen as a more productive activity than personal effort. Reality doesn’t conform to ideology, and when people get used to preferential treatment, equal treatment seems like discrimination. Ergo, go crying to a political group and have them paint the situation as a denial of equality and VOILA! victimhood, and the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Here’s my true story:

My mother works in the medical field and I volunteered at one of my city’s main hospitals in the social work department. One day volunteering a social worker admitted that the city’s population on the south-end of the city had an STD rate over 100%. Now, this wasn’t actually printed in the medical brochures, but was watered to a more palpable number in order to not scare the people that reside there, and to somewhat avoid heat from the suppose aggrieved. I told my mother this and asked aloud, “Why not just tell them to not have sex? To tell them to restrain?” She chuckled and said, “We can’t tell them that.” I asked why not and she had a hard time answering that question.

Dealing with sex is an absurd thing in the socially modern world. It’s encouraged by society to retrain from bad foods, to do yoga and to be active outside everyday of the week if you live in a state that has wonderful weather. We are what we eat so to speak. We have alcohol poisoning on college campuses and car deaths related to intoxication were 1/3 of the total percent of total car deaths in 2013 – society warns us about these things (calling for the banning of greek life and setting drunk driving as a crime; there are AA meetings).

Now, when it comes to sex? Totally “non-judgmental” if not quietly encouraging the act. Sex-education as young as preschool. The advocacy of 13 yr old girls having an abortion without a parent’s consent or awareness. The handing out condoms at colleges. The supposed college rape culture epidemic. Etc etc etc. Those who oppose this way to deal with sex are called prudes, bigots and backwards. They are said to have sexual hangups.

If there is one thing the modern society wants “hands and minds off” it’s sex. That’s their golden calf besides “changing the world for the better” mantra. If it wasn’t for the orgasm and “sex being one of the most amazing things in life” (as one sexually ‘liberated’ woman outs it) “progressives” wouldn’t be as high on sex as they are.

 

[francisca]

Women are also in large degree involved in the hyper-sexualization of culture by dressing very provocatively

Generally, it is women’s natural calling to attract men’s attention, especially among the young and naive women who are still looking for a husband/ partner in life. Older men who are married/ have family are not supposed to look at them, because they are married/ have family. These young & naive ones being influenced by hypersexualized culture dress a certain way in female competition to find a partner, should trigger “fatherhood instinct” among older and married men, instead of see them from sexual point of view. They should think about their own wife and be grateful for having her on their side, instead of “look around” for younger and prettier ones who are naive and just trying to go through a phase in their life. Older men should see younger women as their daughters/ the friends of their sons.

Women in sex industries: these women are being sold as commodities, they are slaves. Look at those who exploit them, and those who-- out of utter freewill-- choose to support such business by contributing/ buying the service.

The owner of the money always has more moral responsibility than those who are in need of money. Everyone needs money, who doesn’t: it is wrong to lure people with money (for example) for abuse of power (bribery case), or in this case, prostitution.

Man’s wife is his church. He supposed to love her like Christ love the church. Man’s first responsibility in life is to love his wife no matter what the excuses, because she has trusted him and give her youth to him and even has given birth to his children. Man’s responsibility is to become the example of his family, as Christ to His church.

Proverb 18
22.* He who finds a wife finds a happiness, and has won the LORD’s favor.

 

[francisca]

Here’s my true story:

My mother works in the medical field and I volunteered at one of my city’s main hospitals in the social work department. One day volunteering a social worker admitted that the city’s population on the south-end of the city had an STD rate over 100%. Now, this wasn’t actually printed in the medical brochures, but was watered to a more palpable number in order to not scare the people that reside there, and to somewhat avoid heat from the suppose aggrieved. I told my mother this and asked aloud, “Why not just tell them to not have sex? To tell them to restrain?” She chuckled and said, “We can’t tell them that.” I asked why not and she had a hard time answering that question.

Dealing with sex is an absurd thing in the socially modern world. It’s encouraged by society to retrain from bad foods, to do yoga and to be active outside everyday of the week if you live in a state that has wonderful weather. We are what we eat so to speak. We have alcohol poisoning on college campuses and car deaths related to intoxication were 1/3 of the total percent of total car deaths in 2013 – society warns us about these things (calling for the banning of greek life and setting drunk driving as a crime; there are AA meetings).

Now, when it comes to sex? Totally “non-judgmental” if not quietly encouraging the act. Sex-education as young as preschool. The advocacy of 13 yr old girls having an abortion without a parent’s consent or awareness. The handing out condoms at colleges. The supposed college rape culture epidemic. Etc etc etc. Those who oppose this way to deal with sex are called prudes, bigots and backwards. They are said to have sexual hangups.

If there is one thing the modern society wants “hands and minds off” it’s sex. That’s their golden calf besides “changing the world for the better” mantra. If it wasn’t for the orgasm and “sex being one of the most amazing things in life” (as one sexually ‘liberated’ woman outs it) “progressives” wouldn’t be as high on sex as they are.

College “rape culture” is the evidence that porn culture and family failure combined is the full force of men’s failure to become example both at home and in society, and it will give birth to worse generation of men to come.

 

[Theo520]

I recall some research that looked at why some European countries were maybe more open about sex but had lower rate of abortion etc.

The finding was that in sex ed they paired the act to be within relationships. This seemed an appropriate middle ground to what we have in the US where religion teaches it’s reserved for marriage while secular society says ‘just do it’. If secular society teaches it as an important relationship component, that’s something Religion can work with and expand upon.

Now, when it comes to sex? Totally “non-judgmental” if not quietly encouraging the act. Sex-education as young as preschool. The advocacy of 13 yr old girls having an abortion without a parent’s consent or awareness. The handing out condoms at colleges. The supposed college rape culture epidemic. Etc etc etc. Those who oppose this way to deal with sex are called prudes, bigots and backwards. They are said to have sexual hangups.

If there is one thing the modern society wants “hands and minds off” it’s sex. That’s their golden calf besides “changing the world for the better” mantra. If it wasn’t for the orgasm and “sex being one of the most amazing things in life” (as one sexually ‘liberated’ woman outs it) “progressives” wouldn’t be as high on sex as they are.

 

[Athanasiy]

Generally, it is women’s natural calling to attract men’s attention, especially among the young and naive women who are still looking for a husband/ partner in life. Older men who are married/ have family are not supposed to look at them, because they are married/ have family. These young & naive ones being influenced by hypersexualized culture dress a certain way in female competition to find a partner, should trigger “fatherhood instinct” among older and married men, instead of see them from sexual point of view. They should think about their own wife and be grateful for having her on their side, instead of “look around” for younger and prettier ones who are naive and just trying to go through a phase in their life. Older men should see younger women as their daughters/ the friends of their sons.

Women in sex industries: these women are being sold as commodities, they are slaves. Look at those who exploit them, and those who-- out of utter freewill-- choose to support such business by contributing/ buying the service.

The owner of the money always has more moral responsibility than those who are in need of money. Everyone needs money, who doesn’t: it is wrong to lure people with money (for example) for abuse of power (bribery case), or in this case, prostitution.

Man’s wife is his church. He supposed to love her like Christ love the church. Man’s first responsibility in life is to love his wife no matter what the excuses, because she has trusted him and give her youth to him and even has given birth to his children. Man’s responsibility is to become the example of his family, as Christ to His church.

Proverb 18
22.* He who finds a wife finds a happiness, and has won the LORD’s favor.

what is your opinion on iranian (or muslim) approach to female decency? or islamic dress code for girls/women?

 

[francisca]

what is your opinion on iranian (or muslim) approach to female decency? or islamic dress code for girls/women?

I have never lived in Iran, and have never been there before.

I think not only towards moslem women, but also towards all people: we shall not value a human person based on the clothes he/ she wear.

For example: if a man is wearing branded clothes, then we praise him for “being a good person” in relation to what he wear. On the contrary, for those who wear “cheap” clothes we condemn them for “being bad” in relation to what they wear. Isn’t this logic rather irrational?

More than men, women natural call is to dress themselves in order to look pretty. Women has the right to express themselves and choose their own clothes just as men do. No women deserved to be condemned for the clothes they wear. This is an offence towards womans basic right as a human being who has the right to express their feminine nature without prejudice from anyone. Women being pretty doesn’t automatically become object of sex. They’re subjects to be respected. The idea of sex object-- women dress to arouse men-- devalue women as human being.

If it is about decency, then let all the women in the community decide for themselves what is considered decent/ not decent for themselves in that community. No men should be allowed to devalue women’s dignity based on the clothes they wear.

If a woman decide she wants to wear hijab, then she should be allowed to do so. But nobody should humiliate her dignity for choosing otherwise.

 

[Athanasiy]

I have never lived in Iran, and have never been there before.

I think not only towards moslem women, but also towards all people: we shall not value a human person based on the clothes he/ she wear.

For example: if a man is wearing branded clothes, then we praise him for “being a good person” in relation to what he wear. On the contrary, for those who wear “cheap” clothes we condemn them for “being bad” in relation to what they wear. Isn’t this logic rather irrational?

More than men, women natural call is to dress themselves in order to look pretty. Women has the right to express themselves and choose their own clothes just as men do. No women deserved to be condemned for the clothes they wear. This is an offence towards womans basic right as a human being who has the right to express their feminine nature without prejudice from anyone. Women being pretty doesn’t automatically become object of sex. They’re subjects to be respected. The idea of sex object-- women dress to arouse men-- devalue women as human being.

If it is about decency, then let all the women in the community decide for themselves what is considered decent/ not decent for themselves in that community. No men should be allowed to devalue women’s dignity based on the clothes they wear.

If a woman decide she wants to wear hijab, then she should be allowed to do so. But nobody should humiliate her dignity for choosing otherwise.

so, the provocative appearance which robs the mind of man, blows away his wisdom, and can eventually bring to broken families, broken lives ( as a result of the fact that the ox went for slaughter ) these all is the result of exclusively male guilt rather than the outward appearance of a woman?

 

[francisca]

so, the provocative appearance which robs the mind of man, blows away his wisdom, and can eventually bring to broken families, broken lives ( as a result of the fact that the ox went for slaughter ) these all is the result of exclusively male guilt rather than the outward appearance of a woman?

Before I answered you in last post, I did some research about Iran women dress code, and found that the authority makes it compulsory for women to wear hijab since 1979. But recently many women post in social media their photos of themselves showing hair without hijab. Are you refering to this topic?

I need to confirm which provocative appearance are you refering to, because I also find out that there are a few moslem women dress code that I know of: (this is to synchronize our conversation)

1. sayla
2. hijab
3. al-mira
4. chador
5. niqap
6. burqua

Sayla is very loose head cover, permitting hair and neck to be seen under the head cover.
Hijab is tighter than sayla, but still permitting minimum exposure of hair & neck.
Al-mira cover hair and neck completely, but show the whole face.
Chador cover hair, neck completly, and cover the lips
Niqap cover whole head & neck except eyes
Burqua covers whole head including the eyes (eye are using meshed/ thin fabric so the woman can still see outside world through the tiny holes on the fabric)

Please correct me if I am wrong about the above.

Eventhough I lived in a moslem country before, I am not a moslem, and from where I came from, moslem women are allowed to wear non-moslem dress, moslem dress code is not compulsory. So most moslem women only wear sayla/ hijab when they go for prayers or important occasions. Some women wear al-mira too. I have seen chador & niqap one or two times (very rare), never seen any women wearing burqua in my life.

So please explain to me which appearance is considered provocative according to you? and which molsem-dress code is considered decent according to you?

 

[Athanasiy]

Sport TV channel in Iran.
How would you answer this?
goo.gl/4QiWMS

 

[francisca]

Sport TV channel in Iran.
How would you answer this?
goo.gl/4QiWMS

To tell you the truth, I was very surprised at your clarifying your remark above, you refer to womans sport outfit at sport competitions.

In the book of Genesis, it is written that our awareness of our nakedness began after Adam & Eve consumed the forbidden fruit (the fruit of knowledge of good and evil), that causes the whole universe and humanity fell into a sinful state of being.

Genesis 3
7.* Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.
10.* He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”
11.* And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

Awareness of nakedness is related to guilt and shame. Primitive tribes wear minimum clothes/ nothing and they do not feel naked/ ashamed.

If we ask the opinion of primitive tribes about these modern sport outfit, they might say these modern sport women are overdressed for such activity, because their own women do daily activity naked and their men do not see them as naked. On the contrary, we as modern people, we focus our mind on nakedness, we see women as naked regardless they are naked or not really. The latter, according to the bible, is related to our guilt and shame. Whose guilt and whose shame? The naked primitive tribe & sporty women? In my opinion, no. It’s the beholder’s own guilt and shame.

Living in the sinful nature of the world do not mean one commit sin until one does. When it happens, he/ she will most of the time blame others for their own poor choices in life. I am talking about adultery, porn, lust.

The fact that there are wide spectrum of cultural dress code among different cultures (and even within moslem culture alone, there is spectrum from sayla to burqua) shows the arbitrary nature of cultural dress code.

Dress code should be about cultural dress propriety and not about building prejudice towards people based on their dress. Example of building prejudice: we praise men who wear long trousers and long sleeves as “being a good person”, and then we condemn men who wear short-sleve & bermuda/ jeans as “being a bad person”. Dress code should not be allowed to devalue anyone’s dignity as a human person. It’s should be about cultural politeness with no relation to “being morally good or bad as a person, in relation to how they dress”, because our dress can’t decide a person’s value/ dignity.

Two aspects of dress code:

First, decency should be decided by the members of the community about what is decent/ indecent dress. If it is a gendered-dress-code, then it should be decided by the said gender and not by the opposite gender that has nothing to do & will not wear the dress.

Second, dress code standard must be reasonable. Example: if you go for sport, then you should dress according to sport activity. It is unreasonable to demand a person to dress for sport activity in a way that makes him/ her can’t do the sport activity.

Another example of dress code being reasonable: If you go to work, then you should dress according to the demand of the job.

 

[Athanasiy]

To tell you the truth, I was very surprised at your clarifying your remark above, you refer to womans sport outfit at sport competitions.

In the book of Genesis, it is written that our awareness of our nakedness began after Adam & Eve consumed the forbidden fruit (the fruit of knowledge of good and evil), that causes the whole universe and humanity fell into a sinful state of being.

Genesis 3
7.* Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.
10.* He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.”
11.* And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

Awareness of nakedness is related to guilt and shame. Primitive tribes wear minimum clothes/ nothing and they do not feel naked/ ashamed.

If we ask the opinion of primitive tribes about these modern sport outfit, they might say these modern sport women are overdressed for such activity, because their own women do daily activity naked and their men do not see them as naked. On the contrary, we as modern people, we focus our mind on nakedness, we see women as naked regardless they are naked or not really. The latter, according to the bible, is related to our guilt and shame. Whose guilt and whose shame? The naked primitive tribe & sporty women? In my opinion, no. It’s the beholder’s own guilt and shame.

Living in the sinful nature of the world do not mean one commit sin until one does. When it happens, he/ she will most of the time blame others for their own poor choices in life. I am talking about adultery, porn, lust.

The fact that there are wide spectrum of cultural dress code among different cultures (and even within moslem culture alone, there is spectrum from sayla to burqua) shows the arbitrary nature of cultural dress code.

Dress code should be about cultural dress propriety and not about building prejudice towards people based on their dress. Example of building prejudice: we praise men who wear long trousers and long sleeves as “being a good person”, and then we condemn men who wear short-sleve & bermuda/ jeans as “being a bad person”. Dress code should not be allowed to devalue anyone’s dignity as a human person. It’s should be about cultural politeness with no relation to “being morally good or bad as a person, in relation to how they dress”, because our dress can’t decide a person’s value/ dignity.

Two aspects of dress code:

First, decency should be decided by the members of the community about what is decent/ indecent dress. If it is a gendered-dress-code, then it should be decided by the said gender and not by the opposite gender that has nothing to do & will not wear the dress.

Second, dress code standard must be reasonable. Example: if you go for sport, then you should dress according to sport activity. It is unreasonable to demand a person to dress for sport activity in a way that makes him/ her can’t do the sport activity.

Another example of dress code being reasonable: If you go to work, then you should dress according to the demand of the job.

I think the dress code of traditional Mennonite communities, or evangelists of old school, or old Believers ( the Orthodox traditionalists in Eastern Europe and Asia)
it is more understandable for Christians, and I think that the understanding is similar to the understanding of Muslims on the subject.
You gave interesting examples for the arguments.
So, you believe that Scripture advices relates to a specific time and culture?

1 Timothy 2:9-10

9: I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,
10: but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

1 Peter 3:1-6

3 Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

 

[Athanasiy]

And for the charity to the mother of three children, I came to the conclusion that there are parents who neglect wisdom.
But even as bad as they are, this one can be even morally superior to me, because they brought children into this world.
Even this young father who went away from this young woman (in a reproductive sense) is morally superior to me.
I am not a sinner but I’m not a saint.
I’m just looking for my ideal and very picky.
Of course I’m not old, but still the golden youth is given to man for procreation or at least for the full life.
( As I understand , according to ancient Jewish wisdom, i think the Christian wisdom as well, because we have the same naturalistic theology, the man who lives a full life with a woman and have children is morally superior to a man who lives in some sort of virtual dreams.(sinful thoughts) It is not surprising that among the Jews there were early marriages and it was not common for a young man to walk a bachelor in young/ripe age.)
Therefore, that very young mother made me a sense of compassion and of course there is some motivation in my heart.
But still from my experience I think that for the Christian, especially in countries with economic difficulties, better to help those who are on the right path of life.
I mean, to prevent the righteous people to murmur against the Lord (because of the desperate economic difficulties) the Christian should first help to those who deserve this help.
There are certainly ungodly families who can blame only themselves for their poverty and destitution.
That is probably why the Scripture says that we should do good especially for the faithful.
Galatians 6:10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
But thanks be to God for the experience that He gives to our lives.