The Wasteland of Liturgy

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How about the word “Holy” meaning set apart…? That makes more sense than “escape”…
 
Well, you just said it was reasonable, so I think it’s the only worthy advice.
 
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“Set apart” from sin, okay.

I guess I am still not seeing how a dull or bumbling Mass is sinful, as opposed to being merely uninspired. If the priest saying it is not making his best effort, then maybe a sin for him, but if he is doing what he thinks is his best and the person in the pew just doesn’t like it, not seeing the sin.
 
I agree. Vatican II was a great gift to the Church through the Holy Spirit. The problem for the liturgy (which is what this thread is about) is concomitant with Vatican II, and is primarily related to the other social and cultural changes occurring over the past 50 years… all of the challenges facing the Church stem from this.

I am simply using the changes which have occurred in the Mass since I was a boy as a comparison. Apparently, the changes made never paid attention to the boundaries so necessary to maintaining the core of the tradition. It should not have to be an either/or situation - either we get a stultified traditional Mass, or we get some free-for-all do what makes you feel good Mass.

The Canon of the Mass is very much the same today as it was… with some minor changes (the kiss of peace became the sign of peace when we all shake hands and pass our colds around!). But we no longer kneel at the altar (when I was an altar boy, you would accompany the priest with a paten to catch any crumbs of the host or drops of consecrated wine accidentally falling from the communicant’s mouth). I don’t take issue with such things. The problems are systemic, and although they are not abuses, they are entrenched into today’s liturgy.
 
I agree fully. I didn’t call uninspiring liturgies sinful. (I don’t think I did…)

To put it succinctly:
the Mass is supposed to be Holy (set apart). We are called to be Holy, and not of the world. When the Mass incorporates novelties, contains abuses, etc… “the world” has crept in. So, I’m glad to be uninspired by that kind of Mass.
 
Well, good. Perhaps you can list for me the great things that have come about since VII. I’d be happy to start another thread topic.
 
Mr_Freeze said:
Well, good. Perhaps you can list for me the great things that have come about since VII. I’d be happy to start another thread topic.
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having the Mass all in the local language is a great thing. I remember the Latin Mass. Talk about mind numbingly dull and boring. At least with the English I can now fully be involved mentally. Even after 4 years of Latin I still prefer the Mass in English.
 
YOU may not…but WE is a bit arrogant, don’t you think?
 
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Not when it is the Traditional teaching, no…
Where did you learn it?

BTW… yes we celebrate. But we don’t celebrate the sacrificial aspect.
 
Well, yes. You were a child (unless you are really old now). Of course it was dull, and not involved mentally. You have kids? They are not involved mentally in the Mass. Maybe Maria Goretti and Joan of Arc were, but…
 
Mr_Freeze - You are spot on with this. “Pray that my sacrifice and yours may become acceptable to God…” We offer Mass(the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass), in participation with the Priest. Where this “celebrate” came from is strange. My grandparents, even after the Mass had been reformed, would say “I’m/we are going to hear Mass”. This was a vestige (from before my time) when the communicants made no vocal participation.
 
I am of course talking about the reverence of the ceremony of the Mass which can be influenced by the prescriptions of Holy Mother Church, not subjective feelings of the Mass goers.
 
Love is willing the best for another, and working toward it, expecting no reciprocity. A pure and selfless love.

God may at times give us consolations, but we should never seek them…because this is - well - self-seeking.

Whether we get a consolation or not doesn’t “constitute” or “not constitute” love…it’s our intention going into it that makes our love pure or self-seeking, or mixed.

When I tell some people who don’t understand this notion of a pure love - or have never heard of it, or who cynically dismiss it - that we should be “exhausted” at the end of each Mass, they say that I am crazy.

But for the people who do understand what I mean, they simply nod in agreement.

We should give our whole selves…our whole heart, mind, soul and strength, at every Mass.
 
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I agree with you, vsedriver. I was just a boy but the Latin was droning. As altar boys, we were taught what to say, hardly knowing what we said when we spoke it. “Et cum spiritu tuo…” I remember the pews responding as well… a few voices (mostly women) would say the “Et cum spiritu tuo”, but most were silent despite it being (I suppose) a dialogue Mass.
 
regarding “uninspiring Masses”

What were the marvelous words from St John of the Cross?

Where there is no love, put love, and you will draw out love.
 
I guess I lost myself somewhere between the folk tunes during communion, and the cinder blocks peeking out from behind the banner of St. Francis.
 
Again, uninspiring is the not the word I would primarily use. It is purely secondary, and only adds to the lack of reverence, which is the primary issue.
 
Mr_Freeze said:
Well, yes. You were a child (unless you are really old now). Of course it was dull, and not involved mentally. You have kids? They are not involved mentally in the Mass. Maybe Maria Goretti and Joan of Arc were, but
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Well, I didn’t become involved until it switched to English. I was in my 20s. My kids are adults now too so still involved but they never knew the Latin version. But they have attended Mass in other languages when they travelled overseas.

But I have everything that was in the Latin Mass in my current Mass including incense, bells, etc.
 
Is it good to think of the Mass, or approach the Mass as a remedy for our souls and faith? Or, does the Lord intend to allow us to be bored or annoyed with the Mass for our own good? Remember…we have no control over the novelties or abuses.
 
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