The Way - Fundamentalism

[chief30]

Hello again everyone!

I have a fundamentalist coworker that claims:

• His church is a follower of The Way (the true early church)
• Ignatius of Antioch says the word Catholic decades after Jesus had passed so the early church was not Catholic

Other claims continue about the authenticity of the Church and it being corrupt. I have asked “Is Jesus a liar because he said that Hell will not prevail against the Church.” After a few seconds he said "Yes, in a way Jesus is lying because the Church is corrupt.

I’m running my head into a brick wall here. Any ideas?

 

[pablope]

Hello again everyone!

I have a fundamentalist coworker that claims:

• His church is a follower of The Way (the true early church)
• Ignatius of Antioch says the word Catholic decades after Jesus had passed so the early church was not Catholic

Other claims continue about the authenticity of the Church and it being corrupt. I have asked “Is Jesus a liar because he said that Hell will not prevail against the Church.” After a few seconds he said "Yes, in a way Jesus is lying because the Church is corrupt.

I’m running my head into a brick wall here. Any ideas?

If Jesus is a liar…then Jesus is not God…so who is your friend really following?

If Jesus is a liar…then all, everything written in the Bible is a lie…the Way is a lie too…as an consequence of the Jesus being a liar…then we all have been deceived…including your friend.

And how does your friend knows that the church he belongs to now is not corrupted either?

 

[chief30]

Exactly! Hopefully you understand my frustration. There seems to be nothing I can say logically that he immediately has some wild rebuttal to.

 

[Ignatius]

Hello again everyone!

I have a fundamentalist coworker that claims:

• His church is a follower of The Way (the true early church)
• Ignatius of Antioch says the word Catholic decades after Jesus had passed so the early church was not Catholic

Other claims continue about the authenticity of the Church and it being corrupt. I have asked “Is Jesus a liar because he said that Hell will not prevail against the Church.” After a few seconds he said "Yes, in a way Jesus is lying because the Church is corrupt.

I’m running my head into a brick wall here. Any ideas?

It’s pretty easy to sort out which is the Church that Jesus founded.
Discerning the Church which Christ founded.

There are a few things we know about His true church:

1. It was built by Jesus Christ himself (Matt 16:18) which means that His church must be about 2000 years old. This fact alone eliminates the vast majority of denominations.
2. Jesus only built ONE church (Matt 16:18) hence there is only one.
3. The Church which Jesus Christ founded is the one to whom He revealed and which declared and decreed which books are to be contained in the New Testament.
4. Jesus handed His Authority to His Apostles (Mat 28:16-20), therefore His Church must be able to trace it’s chief pastors back in a line of succession to The Apostles.

All of the rest denominations were founded by men 1600 years or more after Jesus ascended to heaven.
Do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:
If you are of the Catholic faith, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.
If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.
If you are Anabaptist, your religion was founded by Nicholas Storch and Thomas Munzer in Germany in 1521.
If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you belong to the Mennonites, your church was started in 1536 by Menno Simons in Switzerland.
If you are a Calvinist, Jon Calvin started your belief system in 1555 in Switzerland.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.
If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.
If you are Dutch Reformed, Michaelis Jones founded your church in New York in 1628.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.
If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek around 1836.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.
If you are Seventh Day Adventist, your religion was founded by Ellen Whitein 1844 in Washington, New Hampshire.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If you’re Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the Topeka, Kansas in 1901 by Charles F. Parkham
If you are Assemblies of God your church grew out of Pentecostalism in 1914 in Hot Springs, Az.
If you are a member of Four-square Gospel, your church was started by Aimee Semple McPherson in L.A. in 1917.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith founded your church in Costa Mesa, Ca, 1965
If your organization is evangelical, nondenominational, or “just Christian” your group started in the 1970s by protestants.

 

[chief30]

Hi Ignatius,

I have tried every one of these. All that follows is a non sequitur argument leading somewhere else and head shaking. Normally I have no problem talking and discussing Catholicism with others. I don’t want to give up but I feel that there is no where else to go. It’s been going on like this for years.

 

[JMJ_coder]

His church is a follower of The Way (the true early church)

What proof does he offer for this claim?

Ignatius of Antioch says the word Catholic decades after Jesus had passed so the early church was not Catholic

The word Catholic Church is derived from the Greek in Acts 9:31 (ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης / ekklesia kath olos), which translates to the church throughout all. The first extant written record we have of this phrase being applied as a title for the Church is from St. Ignatius of Antioch, but that doesn’t imply that it was coined at that time. Even if it was, so what? The word Christian wasn’t coined until sometime after Christ “had passed” and ascended into heaven (Acts 11:26). A note that this occurs even after the words that became Catholic Church occur.

Other claims continue about the authenticity of the Church and it being corrupt. I have asked “Is Jesus a liar because he said that Hell will not prevail against the Church.” After a few seconds he said "Yes, in a way Jesus is lying because the Church is corrupt.

Then the Scriptures also lies, for lying is a sin and according to Scripture Jesus never lied (Hebrews 4:15). So either the Bible is not to be trusted, in which case why is your friend following its teachings - or your friend is horribly, tragically mistaken. Hint, the answer is the latter.

 

[Church_Militant]

Sounds like your man’s elevator isn’t going all the way to the top floor.

I recently ran into a guy who I used to go to church with before coming home and our discussion was useless. He follows some breakaway preacher who separated from the local Calvary Chapel and the more we talked, the less sense he made. He has no concept of the real history of Christianity and in fact admitted that he’s never even read the Bible completely. (Ahem…there’s a hint for all of us.) When I pointed out that I had, several times, he blew it off as if it doesn’t matter, and I realized I was wasting my time.

Fundamentalists have so many splinter groups it’s like falling in a snake pit because no two come at you from the same direction.

Without reference to the historical ECF texts one is pretty much cast totally adrift without an anchor to any sort of guide as to what was handed down by the apostles.

His assertion about St. Ignatius of Antioch is wrong because St. John the evangelist penned Revelation in about 99 AD and Ignatius’ letter to Smyrna was penned in 110 AD. Barely a decade later. Not to mention that both he and Polycarp were friends and disciples of St. John and both were martyred for the faith.

Ask him for evidence and sources for his allegation of corruption and watch the a-C sources surface like pond scum, though he probably doesn’t even know that his preacher is pulling that stuff from somewhere else and so is buying into it because his pastor says it’s so.

 

[po18guy]

All fundamentalism is based on the bible. Fundamentalism could not have existed until there was a bible. Jesus did not write the a bible, or anything that we know of. The bible did not fall from heaven. The writings in the bible were not complete until 60-65 years after Jesus ascended. There were hundreds of writings, all claiming too be inspired scripture - yet they are not in the bible. How do we know that the bible has any connection to Christ? Someone had to determine which writings were scripture and which were not. As well, the first “bible” as we know it was printed in Germany in the 1400s. Even worse for your friend’s case, that first bible had seven more books of Old Testament scripture than your friend’s bible does - someone edited God’s word and removed those seven books from your friend’s bible.

Jesus left no bible. He founded a Church and left Apostles with authority over sin. That Church has existed since Christ founded it, and has tested and approved 73 books of scripture. If your friend’s fundamentalist community has apostles that trace their hands-on ordinations (from the Book of Acts) directly back to one of the twelve Apostles, or to Paul, then he is correct. Otherwise, he is merely seeking justification for his division from the original Church.

 

[Dorothy]

Hi Ignatius,

I have tried every one of these. All that follows is a non sequitur argument leading somewhere else and head shaking. Normally I have no problem talking and discussing Catholicism with others. I don’t want to give up but I feel that there is no where else to go. It’s been going on like this for years.

Please remember that you have no power to change anyone’s mind. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. Since you say that this has been going on for years, perhaps you should not discuss it with that person any longer, and just pray for him.

You mention that the discussions are going nowhere, so stop going there!

 

[steve_b]

Hello again everyone!

I have a fundamentalist coworker that claims:

• His church is a follower of The Way (the true early church)
• Ignatius of Antioch says the word Catholic decades after Jesus had passed so the early church was not Catholic

Other claims continue about the authenticity of the Church and it being corrupt. I have asked “Is Jesus a liar because he said that Hell will not prevail against the Church.” After a few seconds he said "Yes, in a way Jesus is lying because the Church is corrupt.

I’m running my head into a brick wall here. Any ideas?

Try this approach

Jesus is “the way”. Do we follow “the way”? Absolutely! Did “the way”, establish His one and only Church? Yes. Is the Church called “the way”? No. Has it ever been called “the way”? Not by any writer that I’ve seen mentioned here on these forums. If it’s there I’d be most appreciative of seeing it

• Acts 9:31 (written by Luke) So the church throughout all ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς καθ’kataὅληςholos ] Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…" iow the Church is the Kataholos Church = Catholic Church The English word catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole.
• St IgnatiusBp of Antioch, ~69 a.d. - ~107 a.d., ordained by apostles, disciple of St John the apostle, called the Church the Catholic Church of which schismatics won’t be going to heaven
• St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the “Catholic Church”
• Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote “Against Heresies” called the Church the “Catholic Church” Bk 1 Ch 10 v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, Ch 3, v 2-3]
• Cyprian~250 a.d.
• The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
• etc etc

**Augustine: **There are many other things that most justly keep me in her * bosom. . . . The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.
Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental

Keep in mind, while Ignatius wrote his letters on the way to be martyred, he wrote as he had been taught. He was made bishop ~69 a.d. by apostles and was a direct disciple of John. He wouldn’t be using terms that weren’t already in use by the apostles. Reading Ignatius, one picks up right away, he doesn’t invent.*

 

[po18guy]

Please remember that you have no power to change anyone’s mind. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. Since you say that this has been going on for years, perhaps you should not discuss it with that person any longer, and just pray for him.

You mention that the discussions are going nowhere, so stop going there!

All we can do is plant a few seeds for them to contemplate, then retire to prayer and allow the Holy Spirit, Who accomplishes all conversion, to go to work on them. Still, they retain the freedom to resist God’s graces as given by the Spirit.

 

[KennC]

Hello again everyone!

I have a fundamentalist coworker that claims:

• His church is a follower of The Way (the true early church)
• Ignatius of Antioch says the word Catholic decades after Jesus had passed so the early church was not Catholic

Other claims continue about the authenticity of the Church and it being corrupt. I have asked “Is Jesus a liar because he said that Hell will not prevail against the Church.” After a few seconds he said "Yes, in a way Jesus is lying because the Church is corrupt.

I’m running my head into a brick wall here. Any ideas?

Well the early Church sold all their property and land and give the money to the Church, to be distributed to those in need.

Has he, or anyone sold all their property yet? … if not, they’re not really following “the Way”

 

[chief30]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chief30 View Post
His church is a follower of The Way (the true early church)
What proof does he offer for this claim?

He does this by stating that he follows the Bible (typical answer where I give a typical response). Ends up going into a loop that takes us back to “Well the Bible is all I need no matter what.”

The word Catholic Church is derived from the Greek

He will not listen to any Greek arguments because there is a man at his church that **knows **Greek.

His assertion about St. Ignatius of Antioch is wrong because St. John the evangelist penned Revelation in about 99 AD and Ignatius’ letter to Smyrna was penned in 110 AD. Barely a decade later. Not to mention that both he and Polycarp were friends and disciples of St. John and both were martyred for the faith.

Yes! This always seems to stun the conversation for a second before it goes on some tangent. I think this is one thing that does get through… slightly.

Jesus left no bible. He founded a Church and left Apostles with authority over sin. That Church has existed since Christ founded it, and has tested and approved 73 books of scripture. If your friend’s fundamentalist community has apostles that trace their hands-on ordinations (from the Book of Acts) directly back to one of the twelve Apostles, or to Paul, then he is correct. Otherwise, he is merely seeking justification for his division from the original Church.

I am met with this reply, “I guess that’s one thing that the Church got right. The Bible still would be here without the Church though because God would have gave it to us regardless.”

You mention that the discussions are going nowhere, so stop going there!

I never once have brought up religion. I am always cornered and forced to defend Catholicism. I try my best.

Try this approach

I will look into this thoroughly steveb. Thank you.

All we can do is plant a few seeds for them to contemplate,

Hopefully one of these times it will work!

Has he, or anyone sold all their property yet?

I will have this ready next time it happens. Thanks!

Thanks everyone for replying. I appreciate all of the help and hope that it will help me in the future.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Well the early Church sold all their property and land and give the money to the Church, to be distributed to those in need.

Has he, or anyone sold all their property yet? … if not, they’re not really following “the Way”

Piggybacking on what you say here… the followers of the Way “devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.” Acts 2:42 Is he devoted to the breaking of the bread? A lot of fundamentalists are not, I think because they think it’s too Catholic. Are they devoted to the teaching of the Apostles— both oral and written? The Bible says there is both oral and written words so what oral teachings are they following? I’m guessing that answer would be a big fat zero because despite what he says about following “the Way”, his Church is not connected through Apostolic succession. His church was probably established somewhere in the 1900’s. But, hey, if he can provide a historical record of his pastors back to the time of Christ (as the Catholic Church can) then maybe we can explore his claim further.

PS… I’d also zone in on the argument about “the Bible is all I need”-- you can bet that the earliest Christians did NOT have Bibles. But they did have a Church. It is the same Church whose hierarchy is mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles. It is the same Church that seven letters went out to in the Revelation to John. The Way was structured and had authority– hierarchy, structure, and authority are very absent in non-denom fundamentalist churches. The earliest Christian worship was not based on a book that did not exist yet and certainly not based on one’s personal interpretation of that book. He is may think he is following the Way, but really he is only following his personal interpretation of letters which were written to a hierarchal Church whom the gates of hell have never prevailed against.

 

[HB11]

I’m loving all this info. Has anyone ever heard of the Christian Missionary Alliance Church and its origin?

 

[zz912]

• Ignatius of Antioch says the word Catholic decades after Jesus had passed so the early church was not Catholic

One thing to note about the reference that St. Ignatius makes. He VERY casually makes reference to the Catholic Church. In fact, he doesn’t explain the meaning of the term, he doesn’t reference it, he doesn’t go into detail at all.

Think a little more about this. This description of the Church, as Catholic, is so normal, widespread, and so prevalent that St. Ignatius only mentions it in passing. He has NO need to explain it to the reader AT ALL. He doesn’t even reference the Book of Acts!

What this means is that the description of “Catholic” is VERY pervasive by the turn of the century. So much so that St. Ignatius is VERY comfortable that all readers of his letter will know what he is referring to. St. Ignatius did not coin the term “Catholic Church”. And it had been in such prevalent use that it was completely widespread by the turn of the century.

 

[Goya]

Hello again everyone!

I have a fundamentalist coworker that claims:

• His church is a follower of The Way (the true early church)
• Ignatius of Antioch says the word Catholic decades after Jesus had passed so the early church was not Catholic

Other claims continue about the authenticity of the Church and it being corrupt. I have asked “Is Jesus a liar because he said that Hell will not prevail against the Church.” After a few seconds he said "Yes, in a way Jesus is lying because the Church is corrupt.

I’m running my head into a brick wall here. Any ideas?

You’re getting some great information here, to which I don’t feel I can add a whole lot, academically.

On a different level however, I would add–patience, and prayer.

Fundamentalists are a particularly stubborn lot. I know this well, from first hand experience, as my wife is fundamentalist. Do not expect to pursuade your friend of anything. They are trained (apparently) to withstand the most obvious intellectual, rational, cogent, or otherwise compelling reasoning. It seems like almost like a martyrdom thing for some of them, where the harder you push, the harder they push back. Hence pushing (imo), will likely get you no where.

Instead, just take your friend as you find him/her; field their questions as honestly and truthfully as possible; live as charitably as you can–and seek to lead them to search for the Truth on their own.

As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to the water, but you can’t make 'em drink. What’s more, if you try pushing the horse into the water, you can expect to get your teeth knocked out with a formidable back kick!

Similarly, you can [attempt to] lead your fundamentalist friend to the Truth, but if you seek to submerge their head in it, that they choke on it…you won’t be quenching their thirst of the Truth they thirst for…you will be forcing Truth up their nostrils, which will result in a natural aversion to it.

Hence my humble advice is this–wheatever you do–tread lightly…and politely. Seek to draw him/her towards Truth, rather than seeking to push him/her in to it. Seek to soften his/her soul, that the light of Truth may permeate its translucense, rather than hardening their heart, thereby rendering it opaque to the light of Truth.

Hopefully the day will come when your friend (and my wife) will be banging away on their keyboards right here on CAF, all about their faith journeys, and about how they used to be fundamentatalits, and how they came to the Truth…