The way people dress to Mass

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Indyann said:
Can’t get much more “traditional” than the Vatican.
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There is no ‘the Vatican’ really in this general sense, thousands of people work there each in different positions enforcing and promoting different things according to their authority and desires. 🙂

Yes you can be, the modesty and witness to tradition of the City-State, etc. there, and how it is enforced varies, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse, as history tells us.
 
Indyann said:
As I said, the Holy Father said something to the effect that there is no need for labels in Catholicism. He said “Christian is my first name and Catholic is my second”. “No need to add anything else”. I am paraphrasing here.

If everyone would follow the dress code at the Vatican, there would be no problem. I do not think that pants are prohibited nor or veils mandatory.

Can’t get much more “traditional” than the Vatican.
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Well, the Pope makes use of the word Anglican to describe the ordinariate he established for them. Then there’s labels like Jesuits, Francians, etc.

Given the definition I believe applies to traditionals, then the SSPX and FSSP would be more traditional than the Vatican.
 
Shin said:
There is no ‘the Vatican’ really in this general sense, thousands of people work there each in different positions enforcing and promoting different things according to their authority and desires. 🙂

Yes you can be, the modesty and witness to tradition of the City-State, etc. there, and how it is enforced varies, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse, as history tells us.
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I do think that most reasonable people would realize that I was speaking of the Churches of Vatican City, not the City-State.
 
OurLadyPerpHelp said:
Well, the Pope makes use of the word Anglican to describe the ordinariate he established for them. Then there’s labels like Jesuits, Francians, etc.

Given the definition I believe applies to traditionals, then the SSPX and FSSP would be more traditional than the Vatican.
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sspx, not in full communion

fssp, as traditional as the Vatican
 
catharina said:
When some suggest that a nice suit and tie, a good dress with good footwear
will be the proper attire, I’m saying that not all poor people can manage that.

I can’t, for one.

I dress modestly and cleanly - and that’s it.
If you can do better, hurray for you.
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I found second hand stores a great resource.
 
catharina said:
sspx, not in full communion

fssp, as traditional as the Vatican
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If the definition of traditional Catholic for our purposes is people who attend the Latin Mass then the Vatican is not as traditional as the SSPX and FSSP. I’m aware of the SSPX’s status; that wasn’t the question or parameters.
 
catharina said:
Wish more folks would recognize that some Catholics are POOR.
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I know more poor Catholics than rich ones. They have proper church attire. It’s usually only one outfit but they got it. 🙂 They are a beautiful example to the more wealthier church-goers who bring their children straight from soccer practice.
 
OurLadyPerpHelp said:
If the definition of traditional Catholic for our purposes is people who attend the Latin Mass then the Vatican is not as traditional as the SSPX and FSSP. I’m aware of the SSPX’s status; that wasn’t the question or parameters.
Click to expand...
Can’t pretend that your definition is mine. It’s not.
In every way, for me, the Vatican leads us in matters of tradition.

Any other view seems to be sophistry.
 
lil_flower_luv said:
I know more poor Catholics than rich ones. They have proper church attire. It’s usually only one outfit but they got it. 🙂 They are a beautiful example to the more wealthier church-goers who bring their children straight from soccer practice.
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yuck - straight from soccer practice?
 
catharina said:
Can’t pretend that your definition is mine. It’s not.
In every way, for me, the Vatican leads us in matters of tradition.

Any other view seems to be sophistry.
Click to expand...
Sophistry? Really?

What is your definition of traditional Catholicism and traditional Mass attire?

Would you like to run an experiment? How about in conversation with our fellow Catholics this week, we ask them who a traditional Catholic is? I would like to know because I have been lead to believe it is a group of people who prefer the Latin Mass and most of the pre-Second Vatican Council culture, calendar, etc.

Try googling “traditional catholic” and see what comes up.
 
lil_flower_luv said:
Indeed.
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Seen it and worse.

I also can think of several luxury cars whose doors open and kids in ratty jeans, football jerseys, ball caps, jump out of. Sitting in the pews playing video games prior to Mass.

I don’t think anyone, traditional or not, wants to ban the poor from Mass for any excuse. I suspect the dress code is a matter of modesty and respect to Jesus and our fellow Catholics. If someone makes an effort in this manner I’m pretty sure no one will object. From my experience it isn’t the poor folks who need a lesson in manners and respect, its the other end of the spectrum.
 
OurLadyPerpHelp said:
Sophistry? Really?

What is your definition of traditional Catholicism and traditional Mass attire?

Would you like to run an experiment? How about in conversation with our fellow Catholics this week, we ask them who a traditional Catholic is? I would like to know because I have been lead to believe it is a group of people who prefer the Latin Mass and most of the pre-Second Vatican Council culture, calendar, etc.

Try googling “traditional catholic” and see what comes up.
Click to expand...
If I imagined I would learn truth from google, maybe I’d follow your suggestion.

As it is, I can’t imagine any faithful Catholic who pretends that he or she
is “more traditional” than the Vatican. Tradition comes to us from the Vatican!
 
OurLadyPerpHelp said:
Recently I discovered how little I know about the Roman rite.
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If you have a Latin Missal the following could be very helpful. Saint Francis de Sales, Doctor of the Church, newadvent.org/cathen/06220a.htm, wrote a beautiful treatise entitled "Method of Hearing Mass in Union with the Sacred Passion of Jesus Christ. Through each passage of the Latin Rite, Saint Francis traces Our Lord’s Passion. After reading this you can see why the Tridentine Rite (Traditional Latin Mass) is so revered. One can not follow Our Lord’s Passion in such magnificent clarity in the New Order Mass (Novos Ordo Missae). This is merely an outline.
Code: 
    Method of Hearing Mass IN UNION WITH THE SACRED PASSION OF JESUS CHRIST (By St. Francis de Sales) Based on the Tridentine Rite
When the Priest goes to the Foot of the Altar
Jesus enters the garden

At the Beginning of Mass
Prayer of Jesus in the garden

At the Confiteor
Jesus prostrated in the garden

The Priest kisses the Altar
Judas betrays Jesus with a kiss

The Priest goes to the Epistle side.
Jesus is dragged to prison

At the Introit
Jesus receives a blow

At the Kyrie Eleison
Jesus is thrice denied by Peter

At the Dominus Vobiscum
Jesus looks at Peter and touches his heart

At the Epistle
Jesus is conducted to the house of Pilate

At the Munda Cor Meum
Jesus is led to Herod

At the Gospel
Jesus is mocked as a fool and sent back to Pilate

The Priest uncovers the Chalice
Jesus is stripped of His garments

At the Offertory
Jesus is scourged

The Priest offers the Chalice
Jesus is crowned with thorns

The Priest washes his fingers
Pilate washes his hands

At the Orate Fratres
Pilate says to the Jews: “Behold the Man”

At the Preface
Jesus is condemned to death

At the Momento for the living
Jesus carries His Cross

At the Communicantes
Veronica wipes with a linen cloth the Face of Jesus

Blessing of the Bread and Wine
Jesus is nailed to the Cross

At the Elevation of the Host
The Cross of Jesus is elevated between Heaven and earth.

At the Elevation of the Chalice
The Blood of Jesus flows from His wounds.

At the Momento for the Dead
Jesus prays for all men

At the Nobis Quoque Peccatoribus
The conversion of the thief (St.Dismas)

At the Pater Noster
The seven words of Christ

At the Division of the Host
Jesus expires on the Cross

The Priest puts a particle of the Host into the Chalice
The Soul of Jesus descends in Limbo

At the Agnus Dei
The conversion of sinners

At the Communion
Jesus is buried

At the Ablution
Jesus is embalmed

After the Communion
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ

At the Dominus Vobiscum
Jesus appears to His disciples

At the Postcommunion
Jesus converses for forty days with His disciples

The last Dominus Vobiscum
Jesus ascends into Heaven

At the Priest’s Blessing
The descent of the Holy Ghost

Thanksgiving after Mass
 
catharina said:
If I imagined I would learn truth from google, maybe I’d follow your suggestion.

As it is, I can’t imagine any faithful Catholic who pretends that he or she
is “more traditional” than the Vatican. Tradition comes to us from the Vatican!
Click to expand...
Catharina, I’m enjoying chatting with you and hope we aren’t getting to lagerheads.

If you define the Vatican as traditional Catholicism, then how do you describe people that attend the Latin Mass, follow the old calendar, etc.

When I think of the term I think of people at the Latin Mass. I don’t believe the say the Latin Mass at the Vatican, not regularly anyway, so then all I’m saying is the traditional orders would be more traditional than there. This isn’t a “whose holier than the pope” angle

Here’s a dictionary definition of traditional: thefreedictionary.com/traditional

On matters of morals, sure the Vatican/Church is traditional. However, in liturgical matters, the Vatican has recently given us a new Mass, order of Sacraments, Rosary, hymn books church architecture, etc. So liturgically speaking the traditional orders are more traditional - that’s why they are called so.

Anyway, I’ve exhausted my energy on this subject. We’re both free to define the word how we choose although I do see the value in having established definitions for words.
 
Nostradennis said:
If you have a Latin Missal the following could be very helpful. Saint Francis de Sales, Doctor of the Church, newadvent.org/cathen/06220a.htm, wrote a beautiful treatise entitled "Method of Hearing Mass in Union with the Sacred Passion of Jesus Christ. Through each passage of the Latin Rite, Saint Francis traces Our Lord’s Passion. After reading this you can see why the Tridentine Rite (Traditional Latin Mass) is so revered. One can not follow Our Lord’s Passion in such magnificent clarity in the New Order Mass (Novos Ordo Missae). This is merely an outline.
Code: 
    Method of Hearing Mass IN UNION WITH THE SACRED PASSION OF JESUS CHRIST (By St. Francis de Sales) Based on the Tridentine Rite
When the Priest goes to the Foot of the Altar
Jesus enters the garden

At the Beginning of Mass
Prayer of Jesus in the garden

At the Confiteor
Jesus prostrated in the garden

The Priest kisses the Altar
Judas betrays Jesus with a kiss

The Priest goes to the Epistle side.
Jesus is dragged to prison

At the Introit
Jesus receives a blow

At the Kyrie Eleison
Jesus is thrice denied by Peter

At the Dominus Vobiscum
Jesus looks at Peter and touches his heart

At the Epistle
Jesus is conducted to the house of Pilate

At the Munda Cor Meum
Jesus is led to Herod

At the Gospel
Jesus is mocked as a fool and sent back to Pilate

The Priest uncovers the Chalice
Jesus is stripped of His garments

At the Offertory
Jesus is scourged

The Priest offers the Chalice
Jesus is crowned with thorns

The Priest washes his fingers
Pilate washes his hands

At the Orate Fratres
Pilate says to the Jews: “Behold the Man”

At the Preface
Jesus is condemned to death

At the Momento for the living
Jesus carries His Cross

At the Communicantes
Veronica wipes with a linen cloth the Face of Jesus

Blessing of the Bread and Wine
Jesus is nailed to the Cross

At the Elevation of the Host
The Cross of Jesus is elevated between Heaven and earth.

At the Elevation of the Chalice
The Blood of Jesus flows from His wounds.

At the Momento for the Dead
Jesus prays for all men

At the Nobis Quoque Peccatoribus
The conversion of the thief (St.Dismas)

At the Pater Noster
The seven words of Christ

At the Division of the Host
Jesus expires on the Cross

The Priest puts a particle of the Host into the Chalice
The Soul of Jesus descends in Limbo

At the Agnus Dei
The conversion of sinners

At the Communion
Jesus is buried

At the Ablution
Jesus is embalmed

After the Communion
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ

At the Dominus Vobiscum
Jesus appears to His disciples

At the Postcommunion
Jesus converses for forty days with His disciples

The last Dominus Vobiscum
Jesus ascends into Heaven

At the Priest’s Blessing
The descent of the Holy Ghost

Thanksgiving after Mass
Click to expand...
Wow! That is beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

See, that’s why I signed up here.
 
OurLadyPerpHelp said:
Catharina, I’m enjoying chatting with you and hope we aren’t getting to lagerheads.

If you define the Vatican as traditional Catholicism, then how do you describe people that attend the Latin Mass, follow the old calendar, etc.

When I think of the term I think of people at the Latin Mass. I don’t believe the say the Latin Mass at the Vatican, not regularly anyway, so then all I’m saying is the traditional orders would be more traditional than there. This isn’t a “whose holier than the pope” angle

Here’s a dictionary definition of traditional: thefreedictionary.com/traditional

On matters of morals, sure the Vatican/Church is traditional. However, in liturgical matters, the Vatican has recently given us a new Mass, order of Sacraments, Rosary, hymn books church architecture, etc. So liturgically speaking the traditional orders are more traditional - that’s why they are called so.

Anyway, I’ve exhausted my energy on this subject. We’re both free to define the word how we choose although I do see the value in having established definitions for words.
Click to expand...
google and thefreedictionary hold no weight with me.
(to put it mildly.)

If you want to pretend that traditionally-inclined Catholics
outweigh the holy substance of the Faith preserved by Vatican, that’s you.
 
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