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OurLadyPerpHelp
Guest
Ah…no. That’s nowhere near what I’ve been saying. How did you come up with this notion?
Maybe it’s best if we drop our conversation on this topic.
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Maybe it’s best if we drop our conversation on this topic.
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1stOrderKoC
Guest
When attending mass, you should dress in a conservative manner. The Church I attend clearly doesnt care what you wear. Our Father actually like us to wear our football jerseys during mass when the NFL season is on. Hes a Pittsburgh fan, Im a Packers fan so I had to tell him that God answered my prayers instead of his. It was quite funny. Anyways, sometimes a dress code should be enforced at mass.
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colmcille1
Guest
Hi there.
I agree. I think a person should make an effort to dress respectably and in a manner reflecting the reverential surroundings.
After all, people do not think twice about “formal dress” party invitations or any other social function where appropriate clothing is requested.
It is not enough to merely say that attendance is all that matters. We should participate fully. We should make an effort just as God asks us to do every day in order to be better servants.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
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Nostradennis
Guest
Q. 870. What is the Holy Eucharist?
A. The Holy Eucharist is the Sacrament which contains the body and blood, soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ under the appearances of bread and wine
(The Baltimore Catechism of 1891)
I am not sure what you mean by “physically”. The Holy Eucharist has Body,check, Blood,check, Soul,check and Divinity,check. Pretty much sounds like a whole person to me.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
At least such wealthy folks are still capable of fetching their own children from soccer practice and not some old, wrinkly chauffeur.I know more poor Catholics than rich ones. They have proper church attire. It’s usually only one outfit but they got it.They are a beautiful example to the more wealthier church-goers who bring their children straight from soccer practice.
Let me tell you the time I went to my youngest brother’s retreat mass (it’s a mass held after a retreat coordinated by my bro’s Catholic school right before they graduate elementary). It was a once-in-a-lifetime Mass for the little guy in our family. Our parents weren’t around since they were once again on a big business trip so it was just me and the two other already grown-up heirs to our family. Unfortunately we were all just as busy with college demands. Fortunately, we managed it but the original plan was for only one of us to go. Finally, it fell upon our sister as she had the most free time so she got all dressed up in a really stylish outfit and left our house early. Prior to that though, my younger brother actually implored me to come along with her because I was second to her in having the most free time while he was the most booked. Sadly I was working on a project at the time and wasn’t really sure if I could make it. Eventually, I was the only left in the house.
All of a sudden, I get a call from my mother telling me that it was really important for me to go. Me, my younger brother, and my younger sister were the only family now that could be there for our youngest one. So yeah, I suffered a guilt trip and decided to go. I even accompanied our housekeeper (who, in the original plan, was the one to bring our brother home after the mass as classes were canceled for him that day).
When I got there though, guess who I saw? I not only saw my sister but my other brother as well! In fact, he had even changed out of his uniform and into one of his hipster clothes. Ironically, I arrived wearing my school uniform, complete with my ID hanging around my neck.
So there we all were. My sister dressed as a fashion model. My brother dressed like boy-band member. And finally me, dressed like a student running late for one of his literature classes.
I’d bet right now many of you think all three of us were disrespectful, irreverent, and downright cheap (me specifically). However, would it really matter? We were all there for our youngest brother. That day was a day we were the closest to a complete family while our parents were gone. And all of this, it was in the presence of Our Lord found in the Mass no less.
Honestly, that mattered more to me (heck, mattered more to any of us here) than what any so-called “traditionalist” could ever throw.
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Heliotropium
Guest
Altough I personally dont see the Charismatic Renewal as anything more than a protestant form of spirituality that cannot be found being practiced among any of the Saints of the Church but thats another topic altogether.
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Heliotropium
Guest
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
I hope you dont mind but I’m going to post this in the group I started about the Mass.
God Bless
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catharina
Guest
Accepting your view would mean negating St. Paul on the same topic.
1COR 12:
4 There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit;
5 there are different forms of service but the same Lord;
6 there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone.
7 To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.
8 To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit;
10 to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.
1COR 14:
26 So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret.
28 But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others discern.
30 But if a revelation is given to another person sitting there, the first one should be silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged.
32 Indeed, the spirits of prophets are under the prophets’ control,
33 since he is not the God of disorder but of peace.
Code:
St. Paul speaks of the earliest 'early church!'
He does not say: "there shall be NO speaking in tongues ever."
On the contrary he recognizes tongues as a gift of the Holy Spirit.
Imagining that the gift of tongues is a
part of 'Protestant usage only' is inaccurate.
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paperwight66
Guest
‘Physically’ means taking up space, with the corollary that it is diminished by parts being taken away from it.
Something physical can be detected by the senses.
If referring to a living body (as opposed to a stone, for instance), it means in addition being subject to change aka ageing as time passes, and decay after death.
None of those apply to the Real Presence. It is true that the Hosts can become stale, and eventually decay, but that is the nature of foodstuffs generally.
But Jesus is not diminished by our partaking of the Blessed Sacrament - there doesn’t become less of Him in heaven.
Yes, of course, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity - the Real Presence, truly Him. But His presence is in a sacramental form in the substance of the Host. We do not eat His bones and flesh in a physical form - if we did, He would become less.
Read the encyclical Mysterium Fidei for a much better explanation than I’ve been able to give.
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StTommyMore
Guest
–St. Theresa of Avila
None of the saints have spoken of the Charismatic gifts? This quote from St. Theresa seems to indicate otherwise. Even if one does not find oneself drawn to the Charismatic Renewal it should be accepted as a valid movement within the Church and prayed for.
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crazzeto
Guest
Note
At least upon first reading this seems dangerously Lutheran in understanding. The fathers were very clear upon this point, it is fully, completely and truely Christ you consume in every sense that you can think of. Christ can never be deminished, but this is no Sacramental Union, this is not spiritual, this is very real and indeed, very phsyical.
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StTommyMore
Guest
It is not physical, but metaphysical. The substance changes, the underlying reality changes, but the accidents, which are merely physical, do not.
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catharina
Guest
Yes! Why disrespect what the Church clearly respects?
Repeating your quote:
**Our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand. i am writing about this favor so that if grants it to you, you may give him such praise and know what is taking place…It seems like gibberish, and certainly the experience is like that, for it is a joy so excessive that the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul praise our Lord.
–St. Theresa of Avila**
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Heliotropium
Guest
No Tommy none of the Saints who recieved these gifts of the Holy Spirit have acted in the the way the people of the Charismatic Renewal have acted and do act. This leads me to question if they do in fact posses these gifts of the Holy Spirit or if its just a bunch of earthly minded people exciting their senses because its the only way they can motivate themselves to strive for nobler means. This leads me to another questions which is who exactly is testing these so called Charismatics?
"Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.
Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.
It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds. “Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,” so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together “for the common good.”
***Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 799-801 ***
So where is the approval that all of these people actually posses these charims? Looks more like people taking JPII words and flying off the handle to proclaim everything they have is from the Holy Spirit! Who is testing their authenticity?
"These charisms, whether they be the more outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation for they are perfectly suited to and useful for the needs of the Church.** Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, **to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.
Lumen Gentium, par. 12
This is why I apporve of the Saints because they are not self proclaimed charismatics! No in fact when these things happened to them they did not trust them until the saught the advice and council of their leaders! I’m sure Saint Teresa of Avila would be able to tell you what her gibberish meant unlike the self proclaimed “Charismatics” of the present day. But nevertheless I do pray from them as I’m sure they pray for me.
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StTommyMore
Guest
How is it you know what is in the hearts of people you have never met? The Cahrismatic renewal in vibrant and thoroughly Catholic.No Tommy none of the Saints who recieved these gifts of the Holy Spirit have acted in the the way the people of the Charismatic Renewal have acted and do act. This leads me to question if they do in fact posses these gifts of the Holy Spirit or if its just a bunch of earthly minded people exciting their senses because its the only way they can motivate themselves to strive for nobler means. This leads me to another questions which is who exactly is testing these so called Charismatics?
"Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.
Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.
It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds. “Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,” so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together “for the common good.”
***Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 799-801 ***
So where is the approval that all of these people actually posses these charims? Looks more like people taking JPII words and flying off the handle to proclaim everything they have is from the Holy Spirit! Who is testing their authenticity?
"These charisms, whether they be the more outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation for they are perfectly suited to and useful for the needs of the Church.** Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, **to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.
Lumen Gentium, par. 12
This is why I apporve of the Saints because they are not self proclaimed charismatics! No in fact when these things happened to them they did not trust them until the saught the advice and council of their leaders! I’m sure Saint Teresa of Avila would be able to tell you what her gibberish meant unlike the self proclaimed “Charismatics” of the present day. But nevertheless I do pray from them as I’m sure they pray for me.
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Heliotropium
Guest
I dont claim to know whats in the hearts of these people and I never claimed to know or pass Judgement. I do want to know though which Church leaders have approved the authenticity of these peoples so called “charims” they posses. As a Catholic I’m not going outside of what the Church asks of me to do when it comes to people claiming to posses charism of the Holy Spirit nor is it a lack of charity on my part to ask for it. If the Church approves these individuals as having and genuinely possesing the charism of the Holy Spirit like they did with the Saints and other venerable and blessed persons throughout history then I will join in with them and be happy for them. I will also support them and what they do but tt is becuase these individuals are self proclaimed Charismatics and are not approved Charismatics by the Church is the very reason for why I do not beleive their “charisms” are authentic and therefore not of the Holy Spirit or Catholic by any means.
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StTommyMore
Guest
If you must know, the CArismatic Renewal was approved by bothe JPII and BXVI
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Heliotropium
Guest
Yes I do but the approval of a movement is not the same as the approval of the valid possesion of charisms is it Tommy? Have any of these people in the movement who speak in tongues come forth and been tested by the Church leaders? Have these individuals been approved by the Chuch as geniunley possesing these gifts? They are by the Catechism of the Catholic Church duty bound to do so! Have they though? Nope! But why not?
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catharina
Guest
I hope you don’t realize the gravity of your claims since
you are speaking AGAINST the teachings of several Popes.
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Indyann
Guest
Because this seems to me, to be way off-topic here, I will direct you to this recent thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=535308
There are many posts that explain the Charismatics beautifully.
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