The Wedding of Jesus

[swariffin]

Odd, so many Mary’s close to Jesus… even his own mother Mary had a sister named Mary. By the way, I know that Julius Caesar had two sisters of the same name; his namesake and son married hellenestic cleopatra and together they had a son whose mythological attributions, endorsed by his mother (whose husband, the namesake Julius Caesar left her a widow… at which she said she was a virgin upon conception) were eerily similar to the ones surrounding Jesus. Also interesting about it is the Paul connection to them. One of Paul’s constant companions was Gaius… a name constantly used throughout Caesar bloodline (including the first one I mentioned) … and they were associated w/ family and friends in Asia as was Paul. Interesting no?

So, really, it is a favor to you all that Jesus is being given back his Jewish life with his Jewish customs during that time period. All it takes is a little effort in research to see it indeed would have been considered a transgression of the first divine commandment in the Jewish culture to not be married and particularly being a rabbi who was traveling, extremely rare (pretty much… non existent) considering his age and having constant companionship with her. So either he is married, not according to Ben… but to the customs of the Jewish people and his given position as a rabbi on the go w/ female companions, etc, and the all the strangeness surrounding it (insertions and/or denials) belongs to anyone of hellenistic mythologies; OR Jesus was a fabrication altogether OR we can start drawing up more connections (and funny how all roads lead back to Rome ) . It is part of using the Nature of Reason that if Jesus existed as a Jew, than Mary Magdalene was is his wife. There can be no other way.

So… many… Mary’s, no? Definition of the name is quite telling in my opinion.

Perhaps you can tell me how many American named John.

 

[swariffin]

No doubt why so many choose a church that tells them what to believe and how *not * to think, no?

edited for insertion of reality

Oh yes, my Church teach us to think. John Paul II said “Credo ut Intelligam, Intelligo ut Credam”. Believe to think, and think to believe.

 

[simplynoone]

Forget about Jesus, Paul and Christianity. I do believe that they have the right to exist and live peacefully. And as the OT bible stories said, if we are abide in God, we shall be prosper. If we are far away from God, we shall suffer.

Here is my as of now position on Jesus. I did not live then and I can not validate his existence and because of this, I do not worry about it other than for the sake of others. What I do see as having happened, based in Zechariah, is that it was the Word of God of that was bound, sold, betrayed, and corrupted… save for the foundation. This has been a long ongoing process, my life as long as my memory serves me, wrestling with what is the Truth considering. I could not understand the words of the foundation and this is what troubled me. It literally has been the last 8 years that I have struggled with this, leading me to, last year, chunking it all out. I spoke honestly in my heart that I was after the Truth for its sake alone no matter what. Not for rewards, if it was too scary, whatever… as long as I was not confused anymore.

This happened at the end of last February and that whole year was one of the strangest but most sure years of my life. My faith was utterly destroyed and as scary as it was, He brought me along a VERY guided and personal path to Ezekiel 16. That night was the most memorable night as I heard that voice behind the words… the Word… the same Voice that I have heard from a distance for SO many years was right there crystal clear. Then, He brought me to the one who started this thread… and I saw that he knew that Voice too. And even though this was the beginning of the past December that I found where that Voice resides, the foundation, the Tanakh, in the short amount of time, my foundation is that secure because He declares Himself in there, and for the first time ever after years of COMPLETE confusion,I can say that I am 110% positive that I am in His hand.

I never had that no matter how hard I tried with Jesus (and I never felt right about Paul). Jesus, I see confirmation NOW that there is truth spoken… but I had to spend MUCH TIME only focused on the foundation… the foundation is where all the promises are made and declared… it stands on its own because IT is where the Word of God exists and where He declares and proves Himself without needing any interpretations save what He declares Himself. Malachi, the last book, is the Seal that He left for those who were desperate enough. Malachi 3:6… He DOES not change, that was new to me. He declared Himself in there and in Malachi 4 He tells us to take a hold of a particular promise in which He proves Himself… no other gods presented to me did that. And He continues to pour it out and I do not doubt Him and where He is found.

Jesus, I have nothing against the teachings that match up with the foundation and in fact, there was a passage in there that I hold tightly too as I do hear the Voice of the Word there… John 10… the first section. It is clear. But it was not Jesus speaking and the Voice could be found at the beginning… Isaiah says He declares the end from the beginning.

So, that is where I stand in confidence; a confidence that is foreign to most of us. you do well to question. I decided that if God did not like me to question what it was I was taught, then that was not a God I wanted to know anyway, no matter the punishment for casting off the faith that kept me blind. If God truly is good, then He should encourage this to prove Himself. And He does. I wish you a memorable journey to the Truth should you jump out into the “void” of non faith and take it. Proverbs 2:1-7 will come in handy if you ever do.

 

[simplynoone]

Oh yes, my Church teach us to think. John Paul II said “Credo ut Intelligam, Intelligo ut Credam”. Believe to think, and think to believe.

As I can see, you may be one of the rare exceptions on the “thinking” aspect. I had my own personal motto… if it can be destroyed, then it is not the Truth… then I jumped to see.

 

[swariffin]

So, that is where I stand in confidence that is foreign to most of us. you do well to question. I decided that if God did not like me to question what it was I was taught, then that was not a God I wanted to know anyway, no matter the punishment for casting off the faith that kept me blind. If God truly is good, then He should encourage this to prove Himself. And He does. I wish you a memorable journey to the Truth should you jump out into the “void” of non faith and take it. Proverbs 2:1-7 will come in handy if you do.

Sorry that I cut your posting, for space efficiency reason. Thanks for sharing your story, Simplynoone. As I have said to you, May God bless you always. Surely, I trust you, and I have no reason not to believe you or Ben. You are correct, and I agree with you. We should find out/understand what we believe, in order not to come into blind faith. I do like the word of JPII, Credo ut Intelligam, Intelligo ut Credam. I believe that God does not mind for us to ask.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;95660:

swariffin;4895443:

Ben Masada;4891462:

If you said the gospel was written at 50+ AD, you are correct. If you said the gospel was written 50+ years after the Jesus was cricified, you are wrong. That means the gospel was written in years 83+ AD. You are way too far off.

And you are contradicting your own Church. Read the prefaces to the gospels in the New American version of the Bible, Saint Joseph’s edition, sponsored by the Bishops’ Committee of the Confraternity of christian Doctrine.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

My apology. You are correct. Now my question is. Why do you think Tertulus mentioned the sect of Nazarene? What is the sect of Nazarene? Precisely the follower of Jesus, correct? In your last posting you mentioned that Paul was not accepted into the sect of Nazarene. What sect of Nazarene do you have in mind if it is not the follower of Jesus?

What did Paul was preaching all around the cities surrounding the Mediteranean seas? His own teaching in contradiction with Jesus?

Yes, Paul was preaching his own gospel, and he declares that he did not receive it from any man. And that includes the Apostles of Jesus. (Gal. 1:11,12) He goes on by saying that he had not sought human advisers, or even by going up to the Apostles in Jerusalem. (Gal. 1:16,17) It means that what he used to preach had nothing to do with the Apostles of Jesus. Therefore, in contradiction to Jesus himself.

Why did he came to Peter, and Peter accepted him. Why would Peter accepted him if he disagree with Paul’s teaching?

He came to see Peter because he knew that Peter had been the one assigned to work with the Gentiles, and he was having some plans about it. (Acts 15:7) There is nothing written that Peter accepted him. Peter could not accept anyone who wished to join. That was a prerogative of James, Jesus’ brother and the head of the Nazarenes in Jerusalem. And James did accept him on a trial basis but after 15 days he was expelled out of Israel back to Tarsus where he belonged. (Acts 9:30)

Ben:

 

[LilyM]

As I can see, you may be one of the rare exceptions on the “thinking” aspect. I had my own personal motto… if it can be destroyed, then it is not the Truth… then I jumped to see.

That’s silly - you and all record of your existence can be destroyed (and therefore all claim for and belief in your existence, once all those who remember you have died). Doesn’t mean it’s untrue that you existed.

 

[Ben_Masada]

you need not warn me sir, perhaps it is you that need the warning.
There is Isaiah 53 with it’s minute description of the Suffering Servant who was despised and rejected, afflicted with pain and stripes, by whose “Stripes we are healed.” He then dies, is buried, yet is revived and suffers all this “For the affliction of my (Isaiah the Prophets) people.” All this can be best applied to one person only Yeshua of Nazareth. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 98) teaches that this chapter refers to Messiah. The Targum of Jonathan begins the passage with the words Ha Yatslakh Avdee Mashikka, “Behold my servant the Messiah shall prosper”…common sense says it must refer to Jesus.

Oh! Wonderful! You must believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is indeed the Messiah. But let me tell you a prophetic story. I agree with you. Isaiah is indeed speaking about the Messiah, but the collective Messiah and not an individual. If you read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4 you will see that Isaiah identifies that Servant with Isarael by name, so that no one needs to assume. To attribute it to Jesus, you have to assume, and assumptions butter no bread; and I hate bread without butter. Just kidding!

Yes, the Talmud (Sanhedrin 98) teaches that this chapter refers to Messiah, but not according to your Messiah, but the Jewish Messiah, who is Israel, the Jewish People. Also the Targum of Jonathan also attributes the words Ha Yatslakh Avdee Mashikka, but that’s the Jewish Messiah Israel. To understand what they say above, you must have some initiation in the concept of Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David. Why don’t you read my thread on that? It could help you.

Ben:

 

[simplynoone]

That’s silly - you and all record of your existence can be destroyed (and therefore all claim for and belief in your existence, once all those who remember you have died). Doesn’t mean it’s untrue that you existed.

Fact is that when you actually have the Truth… it does not need a Church to establish it. The Truth exists w/ or w/out YOUR acknowledgment. Lucky for me, I made haste toward that Truth before there were attempts to destroy records altogether. Meaning, claims and existence cannot destroy the absolute Truth, and attempts to do so will not negate the safety of those resting in Him. After all, He is the Creator of the very earth upon which you exist and the foundation on which your faith has falsely staked its claim. If you do not like how it has been declared, take your faith and write your own foundations. It would be pretty much the same effect for you.

Psalm 109:
29 Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.
30 I will greatly praise the LORD with my mouth; yea, I will praise him among the multitude.
31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.

 

[LilyM]

Fact is that when you actually have the Truth… it does not need a Church to establish it. The Truth exists w/ or w/out YOUR acknowledgment. Lucky for me, I made haste toward that Truth before there were attempts to destroy records altogether. Meaning, claims and existence cannot destroy the absolute Truth, and attempts to do so will not negate the safety of those resting in Him. After all, He is the Creator of the very earth upon which you exist and the foundation on which your faith has falsely staked its claim. If you do not like how it has been declared, take your faith and write your own foundations. It would be pretty much the same effect for you.

Psalm 109:
29 Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.
30 I will greatly praise the LORD with my mouth; yea, I will praise him among the multitude.
31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.

Ever hear the joke about the devoutly religious man who was caught on the roof of his house, in a flood? As the waters got higher and higher, a boat, a seaplane and a helicopter each came past, offering to help him. The man refused all, saying ‘I trust in God, He will save me!’ Finally, the waters got so high the man drowned. He got to the Pearly Gates, met God and said ‘you promised you’d save me if I trusted in you, why did you let me drown?’ God said ‘I sent you a boat, a seaplane and a helicopter, what more did you want?’

Point of the story - just as God sent ordinary means - the vehicles - to save the man’s body, so He sends us ordinary means - His ONE church and its protected and Spirit-guided teachings - to save our souls.

The man in the story proudly presumed that God would pull out a special party favour-type miraculous event to help him and ended up very wrong and very sorry. Since you proudly presume that He has pulled out some sort of miraculous special revelation to you to help you in your quest for truth, you’re likely to be just as wrong and just as sorry.

 

[simplynoone]

That’s silly - you and all record of your existence can be destroyed (and therefore all claim for and belief in your existence, once all those who remember you have died). Doesn’t mean it’s untrue that you existed.

Understood a bit better. I was not referring to existence as that is obvious. I was referring to faith. I wanted to Know and not to guess on the issue of who I am in trusting. I have done rather well for myself to throw out faith and seek after knowledge. It is not within my comprehension as to why so many are content to stay in something that is based on … well, what is it based on? Because it is not based on the foundation to which I claim. This is fact. And honestly, though I misread your post, it is quite frustrating to have so many take the authority by inserting their declaration when He was clear in His declarations. He says He is creating them now and not then so that all those claiming His Word falsely as theirs could not claim it as their gods. Brilliant. Why would you want the illusion over the Substance? Makes no sense to me.

No worries though… I have just made it very clear on this forum how it is He declared it so there was a place to reference for you all in case you should ever try to manipulate what it is He said again. He speaks quite nicely for Himself as I am sure you will all see; and some of us Love it as He declared it. His Words are perfect.

 

[LilyM]

Understood a bit better. I was not referring to existence as that is obvious. I was referring to faith. I wanted to Know and not to guess on the issue of who I am in trusting. I have done rather well for myself to throw out faith and seek after knowledge. It is not within my comprehension as to why so many are content to stay in something that is based on … well, what is it based on? Because it is not based on the foundation to which I claim. This is fact. And honestly, though I misread your post, it is quite frustrating to have so many take the authority by inserting their declaration when He was clear in His declarations. He says He is creating them now and not then so that all those claiming His Word falsely as theirs could not claim it as their gods. Brilliant. Why would you want the illusion over the Substance? Makes no sense to me.

No worries though… I have just made it very clear on this forum how it is He declared it so there was a place to reference for you all in case you should ever try to manipulate what it is He said again. He speaks quite nicely for Himself as I am sure you will all fine and some of us Love it as He declared it. His Words are perfect.

That’s the biggest load of gobbledegook I’ve ever read. Your ‘knowledge’, such as it is, is so loaded with puffed-up vanity that it’s little better than ignorance. You don’t even know that you can’t possibly know it all - at least not when it comes to the creator of all. That’s the first step along the road to REAL knowledge, and you haven’t even taken it.

He does speak for Himself - He does so by His divine Word incarnate, Jesus Christ, and by His chosen and appointed mouthpiece, the church. ‘Who hears you hears Me, who rejects you rejects Me’.

 

[Ben_Masada]

ot all love is of a sexual nature. We loved our children. We love our parents. we love our brothers and sisters. we love our friends…that does not we are having sex with them.
Jhn 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

 

[simplynoone]

Point of the story - just as God sent ordinary means - the vehicles - to save the man’s body, so He sends us ordinary means - His ONE church and its protected and Spirit-guided teachings - to save our souls.

This is fine that you believe this. Just know that HE declares otherwise and that that is not from the foundation in which you base your claims. Time to rewrite your own foundation. Ours is spoken for.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=315812&page=3

The above link will allow Him to declare to you in His Words what He has Declared.

 

[LilyM]

This is fine that you believe this. Just know that HE declares otherwise and that that is not from the foundation in which you base your claims. Time to rewrite your own foundation. Ours is spoken for.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=315812&page=3

The above link will allow Him to declare to you in His Words what He has Declared.

Clearly if you really thought my beliefs were fine you’d share them yourself, so the ‘it’s fine for you to believe’ line is bs for starters.

The problem is, with your attitude, if you’d been born in OT times, you wouldn’t have listened to Moses, or Isaiah or Jeremiah or any other of the blessed prophets who came before Jesus and whose writings you quote with such approval.

You would’ve been so wrapped up in this idea that God talks to you directly that you would’ve stopped your ears up to them just as much as you do to any of the NT writers.

So how you can quote some of them and reject even the possibility that those who follow directly on are ALSO correct is utterly beyond me.

 

[simplynoone]

He does speak for Himself.

Agreed with you, and you will be intersted in page 2 of that link as well. Have fun reading the Words as He declared them, no manipulations needed and nothing as to what you are talking about. The foundation is being set straight again in His own Words.

 

[LilyM]

Agreed with you, and you will be intersted in page 2 of that link as well. Have fun reading the Words as He declared them, no manipulations needed and nothing as to what you are talking about. The foundation is being set straight again in His own Words.

Except YOUR manipulations of the very human OT writers you rely on. All of which somehow come straight from His mouth

Whereas the ACTUAL words that HE speaks in NT times - He having come direct to earth in human form to make sure we get them as straight as our crooked carcases possibly can - words spoken through no human intermediary or prophet such as those you quote, but straight from the blessed lips of His own self incarnate - are the greater manipulations?

 

[simplynoone]

Except YOUR manipulations of the very human OT writers you rely on. All of which somehow come straight from His mouth

Whereas the ACTUAL words that HE speaks in NT times - He having come direct to earth in human form to make sure we get them as straight as our crooked carcases possibly can - words spoken through no human intermediary or prophet such as those you quote, but straight from the blessed lips of His own self incarnate - are the greater manipulations?

Right LilyM. It is honestly fine. It does get frustrating when there is no establishing of a foundation on which to discuss. This is why I have continued to ask where it is that the claims are based. But to continue to discuss here when no matter what is brought forth gets met by insults and/or “your wrongs,” it will not really serve any purpose for anyone… mostly me… as that is who I am most responsible for. You are free to believe as you choose. I respect this.

 

[LilyM]

Right LilyM. It is honestly fine. It does get frustrating when there is no establishing of a foundation on which to discuss. This is why I have continued to ask where it is that the claims are based. But to continue to discuss here when no matter what is bring forth gets met by insults and “your wrongs,” It will not really serve any purpose for anyone… mostly me… as that is who I am most responsible for. You are free to believe as you choose. I respect this.

Yes, it’s like each side is speaking a different language.

I hope you don’t find anything that I’ve said to be insulting. It’s simple logic. You DO, as you have said, believe in an objective truth, of which you are the possessor, no?

Then you can’t with any sort of honesty claim that it’s ‘fine’ for others to believe what, according to your knowledge (since you’ve claimed it as such, and as such every bit as certain as your knowledge that 2+2=5 and that fire burns, and not as faith) are fallacies, errors and/or outright lies.

You wouldn’t say that it was fine for someone to believe that 2+2 = 5, or that fire doesn’t burn, or similar facts. Your ‘knowledge’ about God, similarly, imposes on you the obligation not just to share it but to make sure everyone believes the same, because it’s truth and we know what problems come about when people take error for truth, don’t we!