The Westminster Confession of Faith and Baptismal Regeneration

[PRmerger]

If you believe, you are forgiven. Eph 1:7FF.

I don’t think so, Tomy.

Check out the following verses.

Even the demons believe, Tomy, and tremble.

Belief is clearly not enough.

And God first forgives us, so that we can give others forgiveness. Otherwise He demands us to give what He has not given us.

Indeed. Very Catholic, this.

I think you are expressing a works-based forgiveness rather than one based on grace.

How so? Our works achieve nothing except through their union with the atoning death of Christ.

But a works-based forgiveness of its own accord? No.

 

[PRmerger]

And where does that perseverance come from? From God.

Amen!

He is the author and the perfecter of our faith.

Indeed.

He finishes what He starts, and He does not lose any of the sheep the Father has given Him.

True, true.

But we, of course, wander off. We say no. God respects that. He will, like a gentleman lover, never force Himself upon us.

We fail. We fail from first to last.

:sad_yes:

Our salvation is not our own, not our own work, not a wage to be paid but a gift that is given.

Our salvation comes when we say yes, before the Eternal Throne of Heaven.

No one is saved until she dies, Tomy.

Redemption occurred when Christ paid for our sins with His death on Calvary. And that was a gift given to us, all of whom deserved nothing.

Those who wind up in heaven are those who were predestined from before the creation of the world to do so. They will, by the grace of God, persevere. No one else will or can.

So we go back to the concept of a God who creates some who are predestined to hell. This is your view, yes? God creates some souls who for eternity will suffer the flames of hell, and they can do nothing in this life to change this, yes?

Is that a correct articulation of your theology?

 

[PRmerger]

He is OUR Father, OUR Beloved, etc., yes. But I, individually, am not the bride of Christ. I am a member of His body. . A marriage is between two equals - for me to be married to Him would be an unequal yoking, and would make Him a polygamist. Like all metaphors, this one has its limits.

I think this rejection of yourself as a bride is borne out of a lack of the Eucharistic and nuptial union we Catholics have. We are privileged to enter into the magnificent and profound One Flesh Union with our Beloved at each and every Mass.

Since you don’t have that, it limits your ability to see yourself as a bride.

Nuptial imagery from the Scriptures, as well as from the great saints of the Church (see St. John of the Cross, St Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Lisieux), informs our relationship with God in a way too sublime to digest here.

 

[Per_Crucem]

And where does that perseverance come from? From God. He is the author and the perfecter of our faith. He finishes what He starts, and He does not lose any of the sheep the Father has given Him.

How do you know you’re one of those?

 

[Tomyris]

So we go back to the concept of a God who creates some who are predestined to hell. This is your view, yes? God creates some souls who for eternity will suffer the flames of hell, and they can do nothing in this life to change this, yes?

Is that a correct articulation of your theology?

We’ve been over that ground before. Are you familiar with St. Thomas Aquinas’ view on these matters?

 

[Tomyris]

I think this rejection of yourself as a bride is borne out of a lack of the Eucharistic and nuptial union we Catholics have. We are privileged to enter into the magnificent and profound One Flesh Union with our Beloved at each and every Mass.

Since you don’t have that, it limits your ability to see yourself as a bride.

Nuptial imagery from the Scriptures, as well as from the great saints of the Church (see St. John of the Cross, St Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Lisieux), informs our relationship with God in a way too sublime to digest here.

Hmmmm…It’s Catholics and Orthodox who have rejected the idea, to me, that I can consider myself Christ’s bride. Can you cite the Catechism to advance your position here?

 

[Tomyris]

How do you know you’re one of those?

Do you ever hear God speak? Or does He only speak through the Magisterium?

 

[JonNC]

The bottom line (in case you don’t want to wade through my turgid prose above) is that Protestants (including folks who believe everything the WCF teaches) generally deny believing in baptismal regeneration–even Lutherans do, and their view is much closer even than the WCF’s. I think they are working with a caricature of what the Catholic Church teaches–something like “baptism magically saves people and faith is unnecessary.” But people’s rhetorical choices are significant. (If you want more details, wade through the aforesaid turgid prose!)

Edwin

Edwin,
Could you please clarify? When you say “even Lutherans do”, do you mean deny baptismal regeneration?

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

We’ve been over that ground before. Are you familiar with St. Thomas Aquinas’ view on these matters?

Yes, I am.

What, specifically are you referring to?

 

[PRmerger]

Hmmmm…It’s Catholics and Orthodox who have rejected the idea, to me, that I can consider myself Christ’s bride. Can you cite the Catechism to advance your position here?

The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist. The Lord referred to himself as the “bridegroom.” T**he Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride “betrothed” to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him. **The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb. “Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her.” He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body CCC796

 

[PRmerger]

Hmmmm…It’s Catholics and Orthodox who have rejected the idea, to me, that I can consider myself Christ’s bride. Can you cite the Catechism to advance your position here?

The entire Christian life bears the mark of the spousal love of Christ and the Church. Already Baptism, the entry into the People of God, is a nuptial mystery; it is so to speak the nuptial bath. which precedes the wedding feast, the Eucharist.–CCC1617

 

[PRmerger]

The entire Christian life bears the mark of the spousal love of Christ and the Church. Already Baptism, the entry into the People of God, is a nuptial mystery; it is so to speak the nuptial bath. which precedes the wedding feast, the Eucharist.–CCC1617

Christ has entered this history and remains in it as the Bridegroom who “has given himself”. “To give” means “to become a sincere gift” in the most complete and radical way: “Greater love has no man than this” (Jn 15:13). According to this conception, all human beings - both women and men - are called through the Church, to be the “Bride” of Christ, the Redeemer of the world. In this way “being the bride”, and thus the “feminine” element, becomes a symbol of all that is “human”, according to the words of Paul: “There is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:28).–Mulieris Dignitatem

 

[Tomyris]

Yes, I am.

What, specifically are you referring to?

STA on Predestination

Are you a Thomist?

Most, if not all, of Thomas’ views on predestination sound very close to Reformed theology, specifically Calvin’s own statements, including reprobation. Reprobation is NOT a Calvinist invention.

 

[Tomyris]

The… body CCC796

The .–CCC1617

Christ has …Mulieris Dignitatem

Thank you. Very sublime and elegantly written.

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you. Very sublime and elegantly written.

They are, indeed, magnificently written and eloquent and elegant!

 

[PRmerger]

STA on Predestination

Are you a Thomist?

Yes, I am, where he is consonant with Catholic teaching.

Most, if not all, of Thomas’ views on predestination sound very close to Reformed theology, specifically Calvin’s own statements, including reprobation. Reprobation is NOT a Calvinist invention.

I think that there is much of Reformed theology which gels quite nicely with Catholicism.

 

[Tomyris]

Yes, I am, where he is consonant with Catholic teaching.

Perhaps you would care to elaborate…

 

[PRmerger]

Perhaps you would care to elaborate…

Well, for example:

This, (bold mine)

Originally posted by the Angelic Doctor: The preparation of the human will for good is twofold: the first, whereby it is prepared to operate rightly and to enjoy God; and this preparation of the will cannot take place without the habitual gift of grace, which is the principle of meritorious works, as stated above (Article 5). There is a second way in which the human will may be taken to be prepared for the gift of habitual grace itself. Now in order that man prepare himself to receive this gift, it is not necessary to presuppose any further habitual gift in the soul, otherwise we should go on to infinity. But we must presuppose a gratuitous gift of God, Who moves the soul inwardly or inspires the good wish. For in these two ways do we need the Divine assistance, as stated above (2,3). Now that we need the help of God to move us, is manifest. For since every agent acts for an end, every cause must direct is effect to its end, and hence since the order of ends is according to the order of agents or movers, man must be directed to the last end by the motion of the first mover, and to the proximate end by the motion of any of the subordinate movers; as the spirit of the soldier is bent towards seeking the victory by the motion of the leader of the army–and towards following the standard of a regiment by the motion of the standard-bearer. And thus since God is the First Mover, simply, it is by His motion that everything seeks to be likened to God in its own way. Hence Dionysius says (Div. Nom. iv) that “God turns all to Himself.” **But He directs righteous men to Himself as to a special end, which they seek, and to which they wish to cling, **according to Psalm 72:28, “it is good for Me to adhere to my God.” And that they are “turned” to God can only spring from God’s having “turned” them. Now to prepare oneself for grace is, as it were, to be turned to God; just as, whoever has his eyes turned away from the light of the sun, prepares himself to receive the sun’s light, by turning his eyes towards the sun. Hence it is clear that man cannot prepare himself to receive the light of grace except by the gratuitous help of God moving him inwardly.

Reply to Objection 1. Man’s turning to God is by free-will; and thus man is bidden to turn himself to God. But free-will can only be turned to God, when God turns it, according to Jeremiah 31:18: “Convert me and I shall be converted, for Thou art the Lord, my God”; and Lamentations 5:21: “Convert us, O Lord, to Thee, and we shall be converted.”

Reply to Objection 2. Man can do nothing unless moved by God, according to John 15:5: “Without Me, you can do nothing.” Hence when a man is said to do what is in him to do, this is said to be in his power according as he is moved by God.

Reply to Objection 3. This objection regards habitual grace, for which some preparation is required, since every form requires a disposition in that which is to be its subject. But in order that man should be moved by God, no further motion is presupposed since God is the First Mover. Hence we need not go to infinity.

Reply to Objection 4. It is the part of man to prepare his soul, since he does this by his free-will. And yet he does not do this without the help of God moving him, and drawing him to Himself, as was said above.

I say:

 

[PRmerger]

Perhaps you would care to elaborate…

This,

Originally posted by the Angelic Doctor: Nothing is handed down in the canonical Scriptures concerning the sanctification of the Blessed Mary as to her being sanctified in the womb;

I say, respectfully, “No.”

But then I say to this,

From the pen of the Angelic Doctor again: We must therefore confess simply that the Blessed Virgin committed no actual sin, neither mortal nor venial; so that what is written (Cant 4:7) is fulfilled: ‘Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee,’ etc. “

 

[Contarini]

Edwin,
Could you please clarify? When you say “even Lutherans do”, do you mean deny baptismal regeneration?

Jon

Jon,

I am open to correction here. I have definitely run into Lutheran statements denying that “baptismal regeneration” is a good description of the Lutheran position. I thought it was rather like “consubstantiation” (i.e., something that looks to outsiders like a good description of the Lutheran position but which at least some Lutherans find objectionable).

Edwin