The will of wicked refuse for eternity?

[John_Martin]

The wicked in hell has a defective desire for a"temporal" happiness,

Actually we all, in the Church, confess when we have sought temporal happiness, missing the mark. And in contrition we declare our true source of happiness as our LORD, and that we will not look away from him again.
There is no such thing as generally wicked nor generally good.

 

[Magnanimity]

Not AN eternal jump, but jumps many times during an eternity of fearing the heat. Not infinite distance but an eternal continuation.

Oh, I see what you’re envisioning now. This is a helpful image—perhaps even plausible.

Via a defective understanding of good. The fire does not equal divine Love to the defective understanding, to the mind of the flesh that seeks to call good anything away from self giving.

Yeah, this is where I get lost on this issue. According to St Thomas Aquinas (and I quite agree with him) all goodness emanates from the divine as it’s source. God is the Good toward which we are oriented. Also according to him, being and goodness are convertible. I also agree with that. It makes a ton of sense to me.

If St Thomas is correct here, I just don’t follow the logic of defective understanding. We all can admit errors among ourselves when it comes to apprehending and doing the good. I got that much. But when folks try to explain what a human will be and will be doing in a place like the Augustinian Hell, it seems clear to me that the vision people typically give is one of God being absent. If so, then the Good is absent. Then toward what does a human will orient itself?

On your scenario here, the divine isn’t exactly absent. The divine love/fire is ever present but folks merely recede from it over the unending vastness of future time. But that isn’t what humans do. People aim at various goods (even the “wicked” do this), though those goods are often enough mixed together with varying privations as well.

As Karl Rahner says regarding the possibility of constantly refusing God, it “is not…of equal right and stature in relation to a ‘yes’ to God. For every ‘no’ always derives the life it has from a ‘yes’ because the ‘no’ always becomes intelligible only in light of the ‘yes,’ and not vice versa,” (Foundations of Christian Faith, p. 102).

All these no’s to God/Goodness are often with an admixture of yes’s for humans are ever oriented toward the good. As St Thomas says repeatedly, humans are made for beatitude. If that is at the core of what it is to be human, then how could that/when could that cease? It is an incoherent concept.

 

[Magnanimity]

There is no such thing as generally wicked nor generally good.

Sure there are. Generally good is what you are right this very moment if you’re living as best you can a life filled with God’s grace. If you aren’t yet a saint, you’re “generally good.” And contrition isn’t exclusive to Catholics or even Christians—to feel remorse for one’s wrongdoings and to seek forgiveness and reconciliation is a human orientation—no religious commitments required. Those commitments certainly help such a person because of their mature structures, but they aren’t necessary for contrition leading to a desire for reconciliation and being made whole again. All of that is just human stuff.

 

[Magnanimity]

God at no point in eternity ever desires a moment of misery for the dammed.

I 100% agree!! Very well said.

because the obstinacy is eternal.

But this is where you lose me. Unendingly obstinate? A negation enduring everlastingly into the future? A negation of the Good? As I say, I don’t see that that is a human activity. Human wills simply don’t operate this way. They aim at some good(s).

 

[Finn]

Agreed, there’s a certain circularity of logic to that proof. What do you think about the idea that having a body is a prerequisite for a changeable will and therefore repentance and redemption, per Sylvester of Ferrara via Garrigou-Larange?

"Although the soul in the first instant of separation from the body has a view, an apprehension, intellectually immutable, and although it commences at that moment to be obstinate either in evil or in good, nevertheless at this same time it no longer has a possibility of merit or demerit, whatever others say on the matter, because merit or demerit belongs not to the soul alone, but to the man, the viator, the traveler, the man who still lives.

But in the first instant of separation man no longer exists, hence he can no longer merit. Whence then comes obstinacy in evil? It is caused, initially by the changeable apprehension of such and such an end, during the time when the soul is still united to the body. It is caused definitively by the unchangeable apprehension of the soul from that moment on when it is separated from the body. The same truth holds good for immutable fixation in good." (Life Everlasting)

 

[mythbuster1]

How long will you persist in this blasphemy? Why do you give false comfort to sinners? Why do you contradict the command, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling?” Have you no fear of God? I tell you, the one who is convinced he cannot be damned surely will be damned. Do not presume upon the mercy of God, nor treat His threats of judgment as idle. Do you not recall Ananias and Sapphira, who were struck dead because they made a false Confession? Or Nadab and Abihu, who were consumed by fire because they presumed to offer profane fire before the Lord? Were not Dathan and Abiram swallowed by the earth, together with all their band, going down alive into the netherworld?

 

[mythbuster1]

What is it written of the wicked in the Day of the Lord? “They shall say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us. Save us from the wrath of God.’” Again, it is written, “They blasphemed God on account of their pains.” They flee from God on account of their sins, and they hate Him for being Just. All the joys of Heaven cannot outweigh their terror at the presence of God.

 

[TK421]

But this is where you lose me. Unendingly obstinate? A negation enduring everlastingly into the future? A negation of the Good? As I say, I don’t see that that is a human activity. Human wills simply don’t operate this way. They aim at some good(s).

If you are correct, then that indeed means there is nobody in hell.

However, I don’t believe you are. There were already angels in hell before physical time began, and they possess rational souls the same as human beings. Permanent rejection of Good because of a disordered ego is real. Evil is real. God and his attributes are insufferable to them.

 

[Magnanimity]

What do you think about the idea that having a body is a prerequisite for a changeable will and therefore repentance and redemption, per Sylvester of Ferrara via Garrigou-Larange?

First, let me say that I have read Garrigou-Lagrange a little on the matter of predestination. I very much admire him as a Thomist–he was surely instrumental in the 20th century revival of Thomism. Also, I agree with Aristotle and Aquinas that humans are soul-body unities. That is, I am my body. And, I am my soul (mind). So, for a human to be a disembodied spirit is to persist in an unnatural state. This unnatural state would presumably affect powers of perception (and possibly of assimilating testimony).

But, I don’t see in the quote you give here that G-L has given an argument for accepting his position. Maybe I’m missing it, but is he giving reasons for accepting his position of the immutability of the soul upon death? He states his position. He talks about inability for the disembodied spirit to accrue merit or demerit, but G-L does not believe that humans are saved on that basis anyway. Being a good Thomist, he believes that salvation is entirely up to God (room is left for secondary causation/participation), but it’s ultimately up to God.

I suppose I’m not seeing an argument opposing the view that memory, reason and introspection would not be possible for the human in that unnatural disembodied state. If you find such an argument here or in other writings, please present it. Thanks!

 

[Magnanimity]

then that indeed means there is nobody in hell.

Maybe. But, we are not obliged to believe that any humans are currently in Hell. The church has never practiced what might be called reverse-canonization and thereby formally declared that such and such a human was in Hell. That practice doesn’t exist.

already angels in hell before physical time began,

Again, maybe. The devil and his angels somewhat freely interact with humans here on earth and have been doing so from the beginning of time, it seems. So, I’m not sure what it would mean to say that they are “in Hell” currently. But perhaps this has to do with their occupying a realm of time different from ours-sempiternity, according to Aquinas.

Evil is real.

Sure, but what is evil? How do you understand it? The greatest minds of the church have seemed to affirm a position that it is “missing the mark” (sin). Or, evil is a “privation of the good.” Evil does not seem to be a thing-in-itself. It does not seem to have any ontological status on its own. So, it does not seem to be a thing toward which a human will could indefinitely be oriented. Rather, evil seems to be a lack/a disorder of some kind with an admixture of some good(s).

Permanent rejection of Good because of a disordered ego is real.

How would you know this? I would argue that every single person in your life that you are in any way connected to regularly behaves in ways which are seeking some good(s), even if there is also a privation/disorder in the acts they do. If you disagree, can you give an example contrary to this (besides a psychopath or imbecile)?

God and his attributes are insufferable to them.

Correct, which is where this is all headed–the new heavens and the new earth.

 

[Magnanimity]

“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than with two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life crippled than with two feet to be thrown into Gehenna. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna, where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’" - Mark 9

Your hand and your foot and your eye have all caused you to sin repeatedly over the course of your life. This is true for all of us–there’s no sense in denying it. My only question to you is, what did you do with your hand, foot and eye when you removed them from your body? Did you preserve them in brine? Were they disposed of in some ritual? If you’re not comfortable answering, that’s ok… I was just curious.

 

[Vico]

…
Maybe. But, we are not obliged to believe that any humans are currently in Hell. The church has never practiced what might be called reverse-canonization and thereby formally declared that such and such …

The Catholic Magisterium teaches that there are souls in hell now and will be for all eternity.

St. Pope John Paul II, wrote of those in hell in, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, p. 185 :

Can God, who has loved man so much, permit the man who rejects Him to be condemned to eternal torment? And yet, the words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). Who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement…”

Fourth Lateran Council (1215 A.D.) calls attention to some of those living in AD 1215 would be in hell.

Indeed, having suffered and died on the wood of the cross for the salvation of the human race, he descended to the underworld, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. He descended in the soul, rose in the flesh, and ascended in both. He will come at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, (quae nunc gestant – which they are now bearing or wearing) so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad; for the latter perpetual punishment with the devil, for the former eternal glory with Christ.

Catechism

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. …

 

[Magnanimity]

The Catholic Magisterium teaches that there are souls in hell now and will be for all eternity.

Again, the magisterium has not ever practiced reverse-canonization. Not once. Unless you’d like to remind us of who the church has said is definitely in Hell currently. Judas? Genghis Khan? Hitler? Mao…? Which person precisely? That is, the church has affirmed that Mother Theresa is for sure in Heaven. So, I know that. Who has the church said is for sure in Hell? Which person?

Fourth Lateran Council (1215 A.D.) calls attention to some of those living in AD 1215 would be in hell.

Indeed, having suffered and died on the wood of the cross for the salvation of the human race, he descended to the underworld, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. He descended in the soul, rose in the flesh, and ascended in both. He will come at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, ( quae nunc gestant – which they are now bearing or wearing) so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad; for the latter perpetual punishment with the devil, for the former eternal glory with Christ.

I’ve covered this ground before. I know that someone on staff at C.A. teaches that this passage, which is clearly referring to a future judgment-event, teaches that folks are currently in Hell. Every verb in the passage is in the future tense: “He will come…all of them will rise…” Future tense.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

The Catholic Magisterium teaches that there are souls in hell now and will be for all eternity.

Again, the magisterium has not ever practiced reverse-canonization. Not once. Unless you’d like to remind us of who the church has said is definitely in Hell currently. Judas? Genghis Khan? Hitler? Mao…? Which person precisely? That is, the church has affirmed that Mother Theresa is for sure in Heaven. So, I know that. Who has the church said is for sure in Hell? Which person?

Fourth Lateran Council (1215 A.D.) calls attention to some of those living in AD 1215 would be in hell.

Indeed, having suffered and died on the wood of the cross for the salvation of the human race, he descended to the underworld, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. He descended in the soul, rose in the flesh, and ascended in both. He will come at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, ( quae nunc gestant – which they are now bearing or wearing) so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad; for the latter perpetual punishment with the devil, for the former eternal glory with Christ.

I’ve covered this ground before. I know that someone on staff at C.A. teaches that this passage, which is clearly referring to a future judgment-event, teaches that folks are currently in Hell. Every verb in the passage is in the future tense: “He will come…all of them will rise…” Future tense.

What do you mean maybe?

No reverse canonization because it teaches that we do not determine the specific individuals that are in hell now. It must have been divinely revealed to be certain of a particular person’s state of salvation.

Catechism

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

No, there is reference to all, including specifically to some current people, which will rise in the future.

 

[Bre6785]

Let’s play this out in real life okay.

A man who kills a person, because he enjoys doing this sort of thing, promises himself he will not do it again. He knows it is wrong, he’s sorry, and he doesn’t want to get caught. However, he finds himself in a situation where he just cannot help himself. So he ends up doing it again. This time he gets caught. Do you think the judge will take into account his remorse, because he really is sorry, or will he get life imprisonment because justice has to be served?

All mortal sin is mortal for a reason. You choose to do your own will, to do something evil. Rather than accepting the grace to choose Gods will and do good.
Have you ever heard the saying “you will die the way you lived”
This is why it is so important to deny self in little matters such as sleeping without a pillow, or putting sugar in your coffee, or drinking warm water when you want ice cold. You arent being “holier than thou”, little by little you are disciplining your will. And when bigger matters come along, you control your will, your will doesn’t control you.
Also, God knows your heart. He knows if given the chance weather you would do it again or not.

1Cor 9:27
I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.

 

[Latin]

…

Do you believe Mythbuster1 the following teachings of the Catholic Church?
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.

It is grace of Christ that delivers us (Rom.7:25); and makes us co-heirs with Him (Rom.8:17).
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
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It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
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All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi.
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
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He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

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311 For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. ( De fide. )

CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”

2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. …”
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God bless

 

[oliver109]

I don’t think you can compare the case of the murderer to God condemning the priest in my scenario above to Hell. For a start murderers are locked up for a long time even if they are sorry for what they have done because the authorities want to keep the public safe and it is still likely that the murderer may murder again even if they were a nice person. you mention “dying the way one lived” I think that contradicts what Aquinas said when he talked about people being saved after a life of sin and others being condemned after a life of goodness but sinful acts in their last moments. I personally have chosen to sin mortally, I then ask for forgiveness, confess and hope God will give me more chances, will he?

 

[Bre6785]

don’t think you can compare the case of the murderer to God condemning the priest in my scenario above to Hell

A mortal sin is a mortal sin… do you think the word mortal is used to scare us? No, it’s used because it literally mortally wounds your soul.
That’s why I used a murderer as another example. Even using the Lord’s name in vain is akin to murder.

 

[oliver109]

A mortal sin can still be forgiven, it does wound your soul but it does not kill it.

 

[John_Martin]

A mortal sin can still be forgiven, it does wound your soul but it does not kill it.

Well, it puts you out of communion with Jesus, who is life, and if you are not with “I AM THE LIFE”, then who are you with? (hint: opposite of LIFE)
Remember the mortal sin of the “Prodigal Son”, off in the far country? What did his father tell his servants? ('this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ ). And what did he tell the Elder Son? ('this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; and he was lost and is found.’)
A mortal sin KILLS you, but the Son can raise to life the dead: “I AM the Resurrection and the Life.”

We do not carry a bag full of “stay alive” cards due to racking up a count of good works to barter with God to say he owes us eternal life. When you commit a Mortal Sin, you are the prodigal son and you have just spent all your good works on this missing of the mark, this sin. Nothing to show for yourself anymore; you just blew the whole bankroll.