The word "Mormon" is a turn off.

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Paul - you need to wake up. If you can’t see Satan’s signature in the following Moroni-Smith dialog then you are in grave danger. Smith through the imagined or demonic manifestation of Moroni makes himself into the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil for heavens sake! This man through complicity with a demon makes himself the deliverer of the Forbidden Fruit to mankind to replay the same old “you can be just like God if you do what I tell you” message that Adam and Eve fell for.

Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.

Come on Paul, WAKE UP! Moroni makes Joseph Smith, by NAME a new incarnation of the forbidden fruit! Look at the words staring you right in the face.

He called me by** name**, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; **and that my name should be had for good and evil **among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.

James
Hi James

Again your argument has, in my opinion, stretched the limits of reasonability in following this line of creative interpretation. The tree of good and evil has come and gone, the fruit was tasted the knowledge gained. You have seized on a few words “good and evil” which in this case informs Joseph that he , as he clarifies, would be characterized by some as evil (perhaps you, for example) and good by others (me, for example).

This, in my opinion, is a style of interpretation which has been followed by others who offer an “apples and oranges” comparison to make their point. For example, some might suggest that Momons are evil because a similar sounding word in the Chinese language means evil. Having said that, if you, in your heart of hearts think that your thesis is a reasonable one, what else can I say but, fair enough, but I disagree with the logic employed to make your case.

Paul
 
For example, some might suggest that Momons are evil because a similar sounding word in the Chinese language means evil.
Really? If you don’t mind me double-checking, is that word Momons or Mormons?
 
Role playing?

Did I say there is not a priesthood?

I gave you what JS said came from Moroni, in the form of an angel, which was re: a high priest.

Which didn’t need to be “restored” as Christ fulfilled the prophesy of the OT. Not an angel.

Your priesthood tangent is just you, and a false belief that God’s Church, the Catholic Church, has no priesthood authority.

Your church has a false priesthood, that is arrogant enough to postulate was needed because Christ, our high priest, the fulfillment of the OT prophecy that your moroni is expounding, didn’t happen!

nonsense.

How is it a tangent, you brought it up by quoting “38 And again, he quoted the fifth verse thus: Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.”, then posting a lengthy piece on the topic. As I read you quote, the word is “Priesthood” not high priest. I also agreed with you saying, “I agree with you that Jesus is our high priest who has fulfilled the law so that there will be no other high priest that will offer up sacrifices to God for sins.” What I suggest to you is that there is an order of priesthood, I think we agree on this point. Where we disagree, is around who has that authority, you believe the Catholics do, I believe LDS do.

Your last bit about the “false priesthood, and the fulfillment of OT prophecy (I assume you’re talking about Jesus) not happening", I have not idea what you are talking about. It is hard for me to untangle what you are trying to say unless you show me what you are talking about (Like the actual verse you are interpreting).

Paul
 
“Momons”? Sounds like the name of a confectionary, Mmmmm, Mooomooons, I’m getting hungry just saying it.🙂

Paul
Right. Just as i thought. Nothing in that statement of yours was true.
 
Right. Just as i thought. Nothing in that statement of yours was true.
I tried to take your remark about my missing a key stroke good naturedly, obliviously I didn’t comprehending that you were serious about your comment. By the way, I would be interested in knowing how your remark above fits with my apparent failed attempt at humour. You have a good evening.

Paul
 
How can non-mormons quote mormon liturature to prove a case against mormonism? I read all the time here that when catholics are being read catholic liturature by a non catholic- the reply is always that the person either does not understand it, its out of context, or its not being interpreted correctly.
 
How can non-mormons quote mormon liturature to prove a case against mormonism? I read all the time here that when catholics are being read catholic liturature by a non catholic- the reply is always that the person either does not understand it, its out of context, or its not being interpreted correctly.
I think its a valid principal to show irrationality and deception by using the evidence and teaching to damn itself through blatant contradiction and revision or signs of deception and cover-up.

We have all those things in Mormon doctrines that have been repeatedly revised, doctored and "fixed’ when it was obvious that Joseph Smith’s teachings and doctrines did not even reconcile with the the words in the Book of Mormon.

James
 
How can non-mormons quote mormon liturature to prove a case against mormonism? I read all the time here that when catholics are being read catholic liturature by a non catholic- the reply is always that the person either does not understand it, its out of context, or its not being interpreted correctly.
I don’t view either approach as “wrong”. It is discussion.

Mormons will generally not take anything outside of their own “official” literature as religiously authoritative. “Official”, being determined by every individual. So when discussing Mormonism with a Mormon, you really have no choice but to use Mormon religious writings.
 
I tried to take your remark about my missing a key stroke good naturedly, obliviously I didn’t comprehending that you were serious about your comment. By the way, I would be interested in knowing how your remark above fits with my apparent failed attempt at humour. You have a good evening.

Paul
You made a claim in post #62 that there is a similar sounding word (Mormon?) in the Chinese language meant evil. Well, what is that word in Chinese? I seriously would like to know. Don’t think just because you are halfway round the world from me, means nobody from East Asian region reads your posts.
 
You made a claim in post #62 that there is a similar sounding word (Mormon?) in the Chinese language meant evil. Well, what is that word in Chinese? I seriously would like to know. Don’t think just because you are halfway round the world from me, means nobody from East Asian region reads your posts.
With some productive Googling queries I came up with this:

The word ‘Mormon’ does not sound good in Chinese. (Muo men vs. Muo guei, which means ‘Devil.’) The official name of the Church in Chinese was recently changed from ‘Last days’ to ‘later-period days’ because it is a more acceptable term here." Tthe Book of Mormon has been re-translated into Chinese, and that the new translation now corrects problems with the old translation of the word “Mormon:” it is now “translated Muo Er Men rather than Muo Men. This is good because it now looks like a transliteration of an English word rather than a term with meaning itself.”

More here: China and the Church

and
Looking Through the Gates of Hell: Examining a Curious Linguistic Claim

The truth is revealed in examination of the name of the Mormon church when spelled out in Chinese characters. “In Chinese, ‘Mormon’ means ‘gates of hell,’” reports Ed Decker in his popular exposè, The God Makers.1

First, the actual name of the Church is not even “Mormon” (popular though that nickname may be). Rather, it is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” In Chinese, this is rendered as:

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/chname.gif

In Mandarin (the majority, or “official” dialect in the People’s Republic of China and in Taiwan), this is pronounced Yesu Jidu Moshi Shengtu Jiaohui. Literally, taking the characters two at a time (these are all two-character words), “Jesus Christ Last-days Saint Church.”

Second, even looking at the nickname, “Mormon,” it is rendered into Chinese thus:

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/chnick.gif

Pronounced Momen Jiao, these three characters are very plain to understand. The first two characters, mo and men were simply chosen to represent the sounds of the English word “Mormon,” and have no actual meaning other than to allow transliteration of this proper noun into Chinese. The last one, jiao (short for jiaohui) simply means (in this context) “church,” and is the suffix found at the end of nearly every Christian denomination, from Catholics (Tianzhu Jiao) to Presbyterians (Zhanglao Jiao), and even such faiths as Judaism (Youtai Jiao), Taoism (Dao Jiao) and Islam (Hui Jiao).

The individual characters themselves do have meanings, and it’s not too difficult to see how the middle character, men, visually suggests a “door” or “gate,” and indeed if it were standing as a word by itself that would in fact be its meaning. However, it is not standing alone, but is merely the second syllable of another word. Hence, it doesn’t mean “gate” in this context any more than the English words “brotherhood” and “neighborhood” refer to varieties of head coverings, whatever the word “hood” may mean in other contexts. In fact, the character men is found in many other Chinese words, including “lightswitch” (dianmen).

The Devil, You Say?
The heart of the controversy, then, lies with the initial character, mo. How does one get the idea that this means “hell” or “Satan,” leading to the “hell’s gate” or “Satan’s gate” accusation? The most likely character in Chinese to have this connotation is:5

etc.

James
 
With some productive Googling queries I came up with this:
Me thinks Paul G was being sarcastic then, as I am certain he doesn’t believe a word that comes from Ed Decker. And even as a nasty ex-anti-mormon™, I find Decker’s material to be sensationalized.
 
I’m not a gambling person I don’t know about Catholics, but the LDS church is a great place for women with families, or anyone else who is looking for a spiritual home to learn and practice the Christian way of life as taught by the saviour. Of course we have things that are culturally different from the norm (no drinking, coffee or tea) and an initiated only worship in our temples, and that is not everyone’s cup of tea, so to speak, those that join and don’t like leave, but many stay because in the confusion of the greater North American culture they find it a haven not the “satins seat” as many try to portray our faith. If you want to go back in the past to prove your point for the present, I think all congregations of the faithful have behaved in ways that would not be expectable at present don’t you think.

Paul
LDS represents an organization of those who worship a different god. LDS teaches such a different, non-biblical concept of the Eternal Father and His only begotten Son, that what we have are two different religions. Christ was, is, and always will be the fulness of God’s revelation to man. All who followed, claiming new concepts, (ascension to godhood, celestial marriage, life on other planets, etc.) are prophesied as false. LDS beliefs are incompatible with all of Christianity, both Protestant and Catholic. It is a new, never before seen or mentioned concept.

I note, with particular attention, that there is not one shred of physical evidence to support LDS beliefs. God, the Father and Creator of all matter, has always used matter as evidence of His works. Zero exists in LDS. Thus, I absolutely believe that being Mormon does require great faith, because you absolutely have to believe the word of one man. Believing one man’s words, as well as all of the modified teachings of his successors, is required to embrace Mormonism.

I sought the truth, and found it. It traces in a direct and unbroken line, to Christ.
 
The word mormon brings to mind people who value family, and who have been very helpful to those hit by disasters. Why not focus on good things, because there will always be differences of beliefs out there.
 
The word mormon brings to mind people who value family
I can tell you for a fact that the only family that is valued is the Mormon family. If you happen to be non-LDS you are treated like dirt! (Been there.)

And don’t let them “pull the wool over your eyes”, if any aid is given, it is with strings (perhaps its given only to LDS, perhaps people must work for it, or perhaps they expect free good PR–like they did in the floods out by me earlier this year where their one time “aid” came with media reports for them but not for others who were in it for the long run.
 
In keeping with the current thread recognition that Mormon’s are people too (:D) we need to be ever mindful that the Catholic Church teaches that all men are created in God’s image and as such are entitled to the dignity in their human person-hood irrespective of their beliefs and weak human nature.

That said, I have personally never really met a Mormon I did not like on an ethical, moral, lawful and polite social interaction basis.

The tension is in recognizing that ostensibly “nice” people are out there confusing a lot of people about religious matters that have eternal consequences. My opinion is that God will chastise and curse all false faiths and cause them to reveal themselves as corrupt and false through their lack of fruit or by bad fruit.

There are some statistics out there that show Mormonism growing rapidly but on a total numbers basis 13,000,000 or so believers is hardy large enough (.61%) to propose a serious threat to Christianity at over 2.1 billion. Further, systemically speaking Mormonism does not scale. In its short time on earth it has already fractured into 3 major competing sects and about 9 smaller sects and I believe up to 100 total sects. This means that Mormonism suffers from the same lack of central authority and control as does Protestantism. So we can expect Mormons to fracture rapidly. Most importantly this trend does not bode well for yielding good fruit nor giving credibility to its claim to be the corrected version of what God wanted man to know. :rolleyes:

James
 
With some productive Googling queries I came up with this:

The word ‘Mormon’ does not sound good in Chinese. (Muo men vs. Muo guei, which means ‘Devil.’) The official name of the Church in Chinese was recently changed from ‘Last days’ to ‘later-period days’ because it is a more acceptable term here." Tthe Book of Mormon has been re-translated into Chinese, and that the new translation now corrects problems with the old translation of the word “Mormon:” it is now “translated Muo Er Men rather than Muo Men. This is good because it now looks like a transliteration of an English word rather than a term with meaning itself.”

More here: China and the Church

and
Looking Through the Gates of Hell: Examining a Curious Linguistic Claim

The truth is revealed in examination of the name of the Mormon church when spelled out in Chinese characters. “In Chinese, ‘Mormon’ means ‘gates of hell,’” reports Ed Decker in his popular exposè, The God Makers.1

First, the actual name of the Church is not even “Mormon” (popular though that nickname may be). Rather, it is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” In Chinese, this is rendered as:

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/chname.gif

In Mandarin (the majority, or “official” dialect in the People’s Republic of China and in Taiwan), this is pronounced Yesu Jidu Moshi Shengtu Jiaohui. Literally, taking the characters two at a time (these are all two-character words), “Jesus Christ Last-days Saint Church.”

Second, even looking at the nickname, “Mormon,” it is rendered into Chinese thus:

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/chnick.gif

Pronounced Momen Jiao, these three characters are very plain to understand. The first two characters, mo and men were simply chosen to represent the sounds of the English word “Mormon,” and have no actual meaning other than to allow transliteration of this proper noun into Chinese. The last one, jiao (short for jiaohui) simply means (in this context) “church,” and is the suffix found at the end of nearly every Christian denomination, from Catholics (Tianzhu Jiao) to Presbyterians (Zhanglao Jiao), and even such faiths as Judaism (Youtai Jiao), Taoism (Dao Jiao) and Islam (Hui Jiao).

The individual characters themselves do have meanings, and it’s not too difficult to see how the middle character, men, visually suggests a “door” or “gate,” and indeed if it were standing as a word by itself that would in fact be its meaning. However, it is not standing alone, but is merely the second syllable of another word. Hence, it doesn’t mean “gate” in this context any more than the English words “brotherhood” and “neighborhood” refer to varieties of head coverings, whatever the word “hood” may mean in other contexts. In fact, the character men is found in many other Chinese words, including “lightswitch” (dianmen).

The Devil, You Say?
The heart of the controversy, then, lies with the initial character, mo. How does one get the idea that this means “hell” or “Satan,” leading to the “hell’s gate” or “Satan’s gate” accusation? The most likely character in Chinese to have this connotation is:5

etc.

James
Having served my mission in Taiwan, I know all about this. There are many Chinese characters that have the same sound. There are several that are pronounced “muo”. The one used for “muo men” means virtue. There is another muo that means evil. When Protestants write muo men, they use the character for evil. It drives the LDS crazy. 🙂

The translation of the characters they used for “last days” meant “doomsday”. People were leery about joining a doomsday church. They were wise to (finally) change it.
 
You made a claim in post #62 that there is a similar sounding word (Mormon?) in the Chinese language meant evil. Well, what is that word in Chinese? I seriously would like to know. Don’t think just because you are halfway round the world from me, means nobody from East Asian region reads your posts.
Ok, I see what your talking about, as Rebecca observed I was referencing a comment by Ed Decker from his Book “The God Makers”, and using it as an example to support my point. So as you are hinting in you comment, and strictly speaking, there is no such word which means evil in of itself with the sound mormon, only the transliterated words to create the sound approximating the sound mormon.

CentralFLJames posted a good explanation of how the Chinese sounds were manipulated by Decker. It appears by your response that you know something of the language, so I will use another example. The word sounded “wo” means I, but when you add the suffix sounding “men” (interestingly enough the same “gate” character as in the Decker example) you get “women” which means “we”. Using this as the same example a radical feminist could say, “You see, the Chinese word which sounds like women means we. So that means underneath, women and men are all female in nature”. This example, I believe is the same kind of stretch of interpretation and a misrepresentation of the issue.

Your monon friend (still sounds tasty) 🙂

Paul
 
The word mormon brings to mind people who value family, and who have been very helpful to those hit by disasters. Why not focus on good things, because there will always be differences of beliefs out there.
What if I found a church based on homicidal rage, but we do charity on the weekends? Is that also good?
 
This example, I believe is the same kind of stretch of interpretation and a misrepresentation of the issue.

Your monon friend (still sounds tasty) 🙂

Paul
Thank you CentralFLJames and you too Paul G for clearing that up. Yes, i do agree that people can stretch the actual meaning of foreign languages, such as in this case. All too often to maim someone they do not like or agree with. In any case, my apologies if my remarks were rather harsh.
 
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