The words of Luther himself regarding the Papacy

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LordHaveMercy said:
Would you please share the words from Dante? I’m very intrigued by what you are saying.
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Dante’s Inferno has been known for its biting attacks against the church, which most people have come to believe is a direct reflection on Dante’s values. In Canto XIX, Dante puts one pope, Pope Nicholas III, in hell and announces the arrival of two others, Pope Boniface VIII and Pope Celestine V. These attacks are very bold statements for Dante to make, so Dante must have had some burning desire fueled by a some concrete reasons to condemn these popes. Dante does focus the most on Pope Nicholas III, but Dante mentions two other critical Popes to show the interconnectivity between the Popes. Dante’s attacks on the church are based on political and religious problems that the Popes have committed during the turbulent Florentine times. The characters and interactions in this Canto illustrate how ambition, especially political ambition by the church and ecclesiastical members, leads to sin.
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bu.digication.com/finalportfoliothree/Final_Paper_3_Popes_in_Hell_Political_Ambition_is_
 
FollowChrist34 said:
bu.digication.com/finalportfoliothree/Final_Paper_3_Popes_in_Hell_Political_Ambition_is_
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Thanks for sharing. I love The Divine Commedy, so I always enjoy reading commentaries. The article you post goes on to say:
Charles Davis claims in The Cambridge Companion to Dante that “Dante…thought that both empire and papacy were essential to the work of salvation, but only by keeping their functions radically distinct could their effective collaboration be preserved.” (262)
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It seems Dante’s poem criticizes men who held the office of the Papacy for sins they committed publicly. I’m not sure of a way to interpret Dante’s words as attacking the Papacy itself.

Luther, however, is referring to multiple (perhaps all?) popes and not to a singular man:
They embellish** themselves** with the names of Christ, St. Peter, and the church, even though **they **are full of all the worst devils in hell-full, full, and so full that they can do nothing but vomit, throw, and blow out devils! You will say that this is true when you read the histories of how they have treated the emperors. …
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Until now we had to believe that the pope was the head of the church, the most holy, the savior of all Christendom. Now we see that he, with his Roman cardinals, is nothing but a desperate scoundrel, the enemy of God and man, the destroyer of Christendom, and Satan’s bodily dwelling, who, through him, only harms both church and state, like a werewolf, and mocks and laughs up his sleeve when he hears that such hurts God or man more of this later.
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I don’t think it’s honest to equate Dante’s treatment of publicly known sins committed by specific past Popes and Luther’s blanket statements about the Papacy.
 
LordHaveMercy said:
I don’t think it’s honest to equte Dante’s treatment of publicly known sins committed by specific past Popes and Luther’s blanket statements about the Papacy.
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I do.
🙂
(seriously I don’t think there is that much of a difference - both are decrying corruption in the Church - corruption which is factual; the Catholic Church itself has acknowledged this with respect to the situation at the time of the Reformation, and at Dante’s time)
 
LordHaveMercy said:
Thanks for sharing. I love The Divine Commedy, so I always enjoy reading commentaries. The article you post goes on to say:

It seems Dante’s poem criticizes men who held the office of the Papacy for sins they committed publicly. I’m not sure of a way to interpret Dante’s words as attacking the Papacy itself.

Luther, however, is referring to multiple (perhaps all?) popes and not to a singular man:

I don’t think it’s honest to equate Dante’s treatment of publicly known sins committed by specific past Popes and Luther’s blanket statements about the Papacy.
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The Papacy was instituted by Christ Himself. It is not something that men are free to disregard on their way to salvation. Pope Boniface VIII issued the Papal bull Unam Sanctam which infallibly decalered that submission to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation. Luther flat out refused submission to the Roman Pontiff thereby making him a schismatic(in addition to his heresies).
 
quantum_star22 said:
The Papacy was instituted by Christ Himself. It is not something that men are free to disregard on their way to salvation. Pope Boniface VIII issued the Papal bull Unam Sanctam which infallibly decalered that submission to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation. Luther flat out refused submission to the Roman Pontiff thereby making him a schismatic(in addition to his heresies).
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This post in my view is shameful to the Catholic Church and I am very confident, irony of ironies, Pope Francis would back me up on that 100%.
 
catch-22
noun
noun: catch-22; plural noun: catch-22s
Code: 
a dilemma or difficult circumstance from which there is no escape because of mutually conflicting or dependent conditions.
"a catch-22 situation"
synonyms:	dilemma, quandary, vicious circle; More
:tiphat:
 
FollowChrist34 said:
This post in my view is shameful to the Catholic Church and I am very confident, irony of ironies, Pope Francis would back me up on that 100%.
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What is shameful about it exactly other than perhaps the statement about Unam Sanctam’s infallibility?
 
No surprise that Rorate published another hit piece against the leadership of the Church.

I do wish they would get back to picking fights with other bloggers, which is really what they do best, so that we could all get back to completely ignoring them.

:coffeeread:

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
No surprise that Rorate published another hit piece against the leadership of the Church.

I do wish they would get back to picking fights with other bloggers, which is really what they do best, so that we could all get back to completely ignoring them.

:coffeeread:

-Tim-
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When you say hit piece against the leadership of the Church are you referring to Martin Luther’s words?
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Fighting the “good” fight…(?)

Trolling for the WBC?

Who knows.
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In any case it is old old O L D news.
It’s like reminding your black sheep brother how stupid he was 30 years ago.
There’s no point other than lighting a fire to watch people dance around it.
 
clem456 said:
In any case it is old old O L D news.
It’s like reminding your black sheep brother how stupid he was 30 years ago.
There’s no point other than lighting a fire to watch people dance around it.
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That’s the spirit!
(pun intended)

:heaven:
 
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