Their Hollow Inheritance

[Freshman88]

I was merely pointing out a ‘category problem’. We as a ‘people’ were devastated (multiply) by the Romans, you are the heirs of the Romans who defeated other Romans.

We as a ‘people’ were also devastated (multiply) by the Romans.

We are the heirs of those who have preserved the faith and who have also passed the faith on. Whether they were Roman or not does not change anything.

 

[Swan]

This does not diminish the fact that Pagans persecuted Christians and despite facing oppressing these Christians were eventually able to convert their former pagan oppressors. I fail to see how their citizenship has any bearing on this whatsoever.

This makes no sense. My ancestors were indeed later converts, how does this change anything?

The minute Christianity was legal the Christians turned the tables and started persecuting the pagans. Persecution is NEVER a good thing. It amazes me when one persecuted group suddenly thinks they have the right to persecute a different group. All in the name of the Prince of Peace. I think Jesus would have a real hard time with such practices.

 

[Freshman88]

The minute Christianity was legal the Christians turned the tables and started persecuting the pagans. Persecution is NEVER a good thing. It amazes me when one persecuted group suddenly thinks they have the right to persecute a different group. All in the name of the Prince of Peace. I think Jesus would have a real hard time with such practices.

No one here is endorsing persecution.

In any case, the ‘minute’ Christianity was legal, the Christians did not turn the tables. Constantine was very careful not to upset the Pagans too much. Also, there was a later emperor who despite being after Constantine, returned to Paganism and revived Christian persecution (albeit in a much more tamed manner).

 

[Swan]

I think you got that URL from something I’d posted in one of the Jewish threads.

That website is intended as an informational site for uneducated JEWS who might be interested in converting to Christianity. It has no bearing for Gentiles at all.

Jews do not try to convert Gentiles to Judaism, though we welcome them if they seek us out.

And do you really think it is Christian to refer to the website founders as “freaks”?

Maybe Christian missionaries need to learn something: if you don’t want to take the risk that your religious beliefs will be dissected and proven erroneous, maybe you should not try to proselytize Jews? Because any reputable rabbi can easily show why Jews do not need to convert to Christianity.

If Christians never tried to convert Jews, we would never create websites like the one you link to. We do it ONLY to SHOW WHY we do not accept Christian belief.

This woman is correct. Those of you who want to convert the Jews need to chill out. Talk about un-Christian! I can’t believe these remarks were even posted. No one, inlcuding you who are so eager to cast stones, likes to have their faith attacked. Show others the same respect you expect. And, as far as I am aware it is the teaching of the RC that the Jews are not to be “converted”, buta re to be left alone.

No one likes to have their faith attacked.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

This woman is correct. Those of you who want to convert the Jews need to chill out. Talk about un-Christian!

Interesting. It is now considered un-Christian to attempt to do what Jesus sent the apostles to do - convert the Jews?

In Novusordoville, the very mission of the Church is now considered “un-Christian”.

 

[Freshman88]

Those of you who want to convert the Jews need to chill out.

Why?

Talk about un-Christian!

On the contrary, evangelization is a tenant of Christianity.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

So tell me, what did the Jews do in about the year AD 30 to deserve such a severe punishment from God - a punishment that has lasted for almost 2000 years, which is about- 1/3 of the time that man has existed on earth (according to the Jewish calendar)?

In your opinion, what was the cause of this?

Most Jewish rabbis agree it was because Jews hated other Jews for no good reason…


The second Temple was destroyed because of one reason: baseless hatred (sinat chinam).

Example, wanting to destroy Jesus just because he did the godly thing and healed some guy:

Matthew 12:13-14 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

This woman is correct. Those of you who want to convert the Jews need to chill out. Talk about un-Christian! I can’t believe these remarks were even posted. No one, inlcuding you who are so eager to cast stones, likes to have their faith attacked. Show others the same respect you expect. And, as far as I am aware it is the teaching of the RC that the Jews are not to be “converted”, buta re to be left alone.

No one likes to have their faith attacked.

:hypno:

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY creature.

 

[Freshman88]

Most Jewish rabbis agree it was because Jews hated other Jews for no good reason…


The second Temple was destroyed because of one reason: baseless hatred (sinat chinam).

Example, wanting to destroy Jesus just because he did the godly thing and healed some guy:

Matthew 12:13-14 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

Or could it be because Christ had died for our sins making the ritual of atonement obsolete.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Or could it be because Christ had died for our sins making the ritual of atonement obsolete.

That would be no reason to destroy the Temple though, it could still a place of learning Torah and teaching.

But it is punishment and sign that most Jews no longer adequately teach and learn the Kingdom of God, followers of Jesus do.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[Freshman88]

That would be no reason to destroy the Temple though, it could still a place of learning Torah and teaching.

But it is punishment and sign that most Jews no longer adequately teach and learn the Kingdom of God, followers of Jesus do.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

We’re specifically talking about this ribbon and not the destruction of the temple. What was pointed out was that it was interesting that this ribbon stopped changing colour around the time of Jesus crucifixion.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

We’re specifically talking about this ribbon and not the destruction of the temple. What was pointed out was that it was interesting that this ribbon stopped changing colour around the time of Jesus crucifixion.

Yep, forty years of wandering in sin from 30-70 AD.

 

[Freshman88]

Yep, forty years of wandering in sin from 30-70 AD.

Very interesting.

 

[Kaninchen]

We as a ‘people’ were also devastated (multiply) by the Romans.

Perhaps, before you talk of such things, you should check out just what happened with the Revolt of AD70 and the Bar Kokhba revolt (132–135). If you can come up with the equivalent in the persecution of the Christians, please do so.

We are the heirs of those who have preserved the faith and who have also passed the faith on. Whether they were Roman or not does not change anything.

We will just have to agree to disagree or just disagree.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Carol’sDaughter,

I have a question for you. What have the Jews done to deserve such a severe chastisement from God? What do I mean? The Jewish religions of the old Testimate has not existed, in practice, for almost 2000 years. In AD 70, the Jewish Temple was destroyed, never to be built again. In addition, God allowed the Priestly lineage to be lost, which means they could not practice the old Law if they wanted to.

I once spoke to a very well informed Jew. When I asked him these questions, and more, he responded by saying that the Jews do realize that something happened in about the year AD30 that caused God to punish them. Wasn’t it in about the year 30 that the scarlet thread stopped turning white?

So tell me, what did the Jews do in about the year AD 30 to deserve such a severe punishment from God - a punishment that has lasted for almost 2000 years, which is about- 1/3 of the time that man has existed on earth (according to the Jewish calendar)?

In your opinion, what was the cause of this?

My people have had MANY punishments over time, dating back to pre-Christian days.

The reason for these punishments are to be found in the Torah, specifically deut. 28 and Lev 26.

But this is between God and the Jewish people. God uses Gentile nations as instruments of His wrath, to either bless or punish the Jewish people.

The Talmud says that God will punish the Gentiles who oppress the Jewish people, when they take DELIGHT in being used as an instrument of Divine wrath.

The fact that the Jewish people remains, 3500 years later, after many other ancient peoples were wiped out (some with more members than we had), is proof of the existence of God, and that His Covenant with us will never be eliminated.

 

[Freshman88]

Perhaps, before you talk of such things, you should check out just what happened with the Revolt of AD70 and the Bar Kokhba revolt (132–135). If you can come up with the equivalent in the persecution of the Christians, please do so.

Now we’re beginning to get into a pissing match.

I’m currently working on my undergrad at a prominent secular university and this semester I am taking a Classics course which has focused a lot its time on the late Roman empire and specifically the nature of Christian persecutions. If anything is certain with regards to the nature of Christian persecutions it is that the number and the degree to which Christians suffered is largely disputed and uncertain.

In any case, if the Jews did suffer more, that does not change the fact the Christians also suffered brutally at the hands of the Romans on several occasions. If it pleases you that I say that the Jews suffered more, so be it*, it does not change the fact that despite facing persecution we overcame our persecutors and even converted them.

(*It is too hard to determine anyway. First of all the accuracy of the sources is not wholly trustworthy. Secondly, even if we could be certain, we are still left with the debate of what exactly constitutes suffering and which forms of suffering are more severe.)

 

[Freshman88]

The fact that the Jewish people remains, 3500 years later, after many other ancient peoples were wiped out (some with more members than we had), is proof of the existence of God, and that His Covenant with us will never be eliminated.

So I guess the history of the Indian civilization and the Hindu religion is proof that their religion is authentic.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

So I guess the history of the Indian civilization and the Hindu religion is proof that their religion is authentic.

Did they have a holy book that FORETOLD most events in their history before they happened? Did they have a holy book that FORETOLD they would never be annihilated completely?

Those of you who are Catholic might want to check out a book entitled THE ANGUISH OF THE JEWS by Father Edw Flannery, a Catholic priest. In the book he details the history of antisemitism, esp. at the hands of his own church.

One thing I always found so amusing about Christianity (historical Catholicism as well as the more traditional forms of Protestantism) is that they coveted the “Chosen People” status so much, they tried to claim it as their own (Augustine’s replacement theology and the Protestant “New Israel”)! Even the Muslims make that claim.

As for the idea that Jesus was sent by God to die as a sacrifice for sin (chas ve’sholom), that is easily shown to be false by the story of Abraham and Isaac.

God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac as a sin offering. At the very last moment, He sent an angel to stop him, informing him that it was only a TEST.

And to further drive home the point that God does NOT require human sacrifice, Abraham was told to take the ram caught in the nearby thicket and sacrifice that INSTEAD.

The idea of a god dying for the sins of humans, or a god becoming human (and vice versa) comes from ancient paganism. When Paul saw that the Jews for the most part were having no part of his new religion, he took it to the pagan Gentiles, recognizing that they would be more likely to accept his new religion since it bore such similarity to what they were familiar with.

 

[Freshman88]

Did they have a holy book that FORETOLD most events in their history before they happened? Did they have a holy book that FORETOLD they would never be annihilated completely?

I guess I didn’t delete my post fast enough. In any case, I’m willing to bet that Jews are not unique in this regard.

One thing I always found so amusing about Christianity (historica Catholicism as well as the more traditional forms of Protestantism) is that they coveted the “Chosen People” status so much, they tried to claim it as their own (“New Israel”)! Even the Muslims make that claim.

Chosen People = People Chosen by God. Why is it so amusing that faiths have believed that they have been chosen by God?

As for New Israel, I should hardly think that you find it amusing because it has some interesting implications for the old Israel.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

I guess I didn’t delete my post fast enough. In any case, I’m willing to bet that Jews are not unique in this regard.

Chosen People = People Chosen by God. Why is it so amusing that faiths have believed that they have been chosen by God?

As for New Israel, I should hardly think that you find it amusing because it has some interesting implications for the old Israel.

My point was that both Christians and Muslims historically have been so envious of the Jewish people because we were given the status by God of the chosen people, that they have tried desperately to steal it for themselves.

This is because Christians and Muslims do not truly understand what it MEANS to be the am segulah (chosen people.)

It does NOT mean we are better than nonJews. It means we were given a very sacred, yet terrifying mission, one that for the most part (apart from the very Orthodox), we have failed to live up to, hence the punishments throughout our history.

With the blessings promised for keeping the Torah also comes punishments for breaking it. Few Gentiles and even fewer (non-religious) Jews realize this.

It has nothing to with superiority and everything to do with mission.