Theistic Evolution?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Postmodern
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
God is not the author of confusion…God has told us as much as He wanted about Origin of Life…Most of us believe that there are variations within like species, i.e., size, color, shape, etc., and also most of believe if a certain kind of bird, whale, etc., becomes extinct that nothing will evolve from nothing…We have less kind of birds, whales, etc., today than when God created everything…Another thought about Origin of Life, if evolution actually is the way God has created everything from the beginning, how come everything didn’t change at the same time into the same thing…ErnieG:) 🙂
 
I would like to try to have this conversation without personal insults or attacks on the moral quality of the person so I apologize if I’ve offered any.
Let’s clear this up sooner rather than later.

No one here has ever come close to offending me and you certainly haven’t.

If my remark about bearing false witness offended you then let’s examine that in more detail.

You said:
don’t think it makes sense at all, myself.
You are of course entitled to your view and I defend rather than object to that principle. I just see a distinct possibility that Darwinian Theory doesn’t make sense to you because you don’t understand it.

If you do understand it and have found something that renders it devoid of all sense then I would be very interested indeed in that .

You then said:
Personally, I think the evolutionary mythology should be set aside before one approaches philosophy and theology in a reasonable manner.
Again, you are entitled to the personal view that Darwinian Theory is “Evolutionary Mythology” and your call for it to be set aside. If “Mythology” it is then that call is a reasonable one. If however, evolutionary theory is very good science, then you misrepresent it and your call for it to be swept aside is not justified.

I then responded with powerful evidence that Darwinian theory is indeed very good science:
40.png
emotel:
Since the essence of Darwin’s great idea remains a cornerstone of modern evolutionary science 150 years after he published his work, it has survived more than the whole of 20th Century science.
40.png
reggieM:
To state that I’m guilty of bearing false witness because I question the value of Darwinian theory seems to be saying that my opinions are sinful.
I made no such statement.

I said:
40.png
Emotel:
That’s quite an impressive qualification which probably means that it is your understanding that is at fault rather than the theory. If that is the case you should refrain from bearing false witness and look to improving your understanding.
The point is that if you promote the idea that Darwinian theory is a mythology and doesn’t make sense simply because you do not understand it then that is reprehensible. You bear false witness from a position of ignorance.
For myself, I cannot see that Darwinian theory is correct or true. For that, you are saying that I’m committing a sin of false witness (and am therefore deserving of whatever punishment you feel sin deserves)?
No there’s a crucially important “If” in my statement. You are under no obligation to understand Darwinian theory or to study the mountains of evidence for it. However, you are not entitled to misrepresent it to others if you do not understand it.
For you, Darwinian theory is obviously correct. For me, belief in God is supported by obvious evidence. It should be enough that this is a difference of opinion and leave it at that.
When two scientists discover that they differ on important issues they don’t agree to differ and walk away - they examine each others case in more detail. That’s my approach here.

I sense that you don’t understand Darwinian theory and I would be very pleased to talk to you about it. If you do understand it and can show that it is completely wrong then I would find that very, very interesting. I’m also keen to know what “obvious evidence” you see for God when I see none.

If this is a no-go area for you then OK we can avoid it.

I’ll respond to the rest of your post and any future ones with both interest and pleasure.

Emotel.
 
Hi Ernie,
God is not the author of confusion…God has told us as much as He wanted about Origin of Life…Most of us believe that there are variations within like species, i.e., size, color, shape, etc., and also most of believe if a certain kind of bird, whale, etc., becomes extinct that nothing will evolve from nothing…
OK so that’s what you believe. Science is not based on “belief” it is based on “evidence” and "conclusions. It presents a model of the evolution of life that delivers enormous explanatory power.
We have less kind of birds, whales, etc., today than when God created everything…Another thought about Origin of Life, if evolution actually is the way God has created everything from the beginning, how come everything didn’t change at the same time into the same thing…ErnieG:) 🙂
If God is as powerful as he is believed to be then he can do whatever he wishes. Science presents a highly plausible scenario depicting the evolution of life and God doesn’t figure in that.

Emotel.
 
Hi Ernie,

OK so that’s what you believe. Science is not based on “belief” it is based on “evidence” and "conclusions. It presents a model of the evolution of life that delivers enormous explanatory power.

If God is as powerful as he is believed to be then he can do whatever he wishes. Science presents a highly plausible scenario depicting the evolution of life and God doesn’t figure in that.

Emotel.
Then this comes down to a worldview choice. One has to be true.
 
If one option is highly convincing and the other one is not, then there is no choice for um… a man of conscience. 🙂
Right - A man of conscience must believe Revelation over the data conclusions of man.
 
Here’s an example of what I’d call Darwinian Mythology:
In North America the black bear was seen by Hearne swimming for hours with widely open mouth, thus catching, like a whale, insects in the water. Even in so extreme a case as this, if the supply of insects were constant, and if better adapted competitors did not already exist in the country, I can see no difficulty in a race of bears being rendered, by natural selection, more and more aquatic in their structure and habits, with larger and larger mouths, till a creature was produced as monstrous as a whale.
I believe he is saying that the scientific evidence shows that bears open their mouth “widely” and they eat insects so they (a “race” of bears) therefore could be “rendered” into a creature like a whale.

Personally, I do not find that scientific or factual evidence but rather conjecture and story-telling.

So, I do not accept such things as having any real value.
 
Right - A man of conscience must believe Revelation over the data conclusions of man.
But why? When belief that revelation comes from a God is but a belief of man that is devoid of data? It isn’t even a “conclusion”.

A man of conscience would surely see that?
 
:
Here’s an example of what I’d call Darwinian Mythology:
I believe he is saying that the scientific evidence shows that bears open their mouth “widely” and they eat insects so they (a “race” of bears) therefore could be “rendered” into a creature like a whale.

Personally, I do not find that scientific or factual evidence but rather conjecture and story-telling.

So, I do not accept such things as having any real value.
OK I see your point there. Maybe it’s in the category known as “Just So” stories so named after Rudyard Kipling’s delightful children’s stories. The cartoon version of “Jungle Book” is one of my all time favourite films. … “I’m the king of the swinger’s oh - a jungle VIP…”

Delusions of grandeur perhaps 🙂 On my part as well as the Orang-utan star!🙂

Just so stories are put to the test by the scientific method and if they are found wanting they are eliminated from the main stream. There is no comparable mechanism in religion.

So back to the science.

The scientific method proceeds via four vitally important stages:
  1. Conjecture
This taps into the inspirational human ability to be able to “Think out of the box”. Anything goes, Let it all hang out.
  1. Hypothesis
This is where we sober up a bit and look for at least some evidence that supports our wild conjectural notions. Some ideas that seemed really crazy “the morning after” are still with us yet because it was possible to find evidence that supports them.
  1. Theory
This is the “Heavy weight “ stage where testable predictions are expected and then um… tested - to destruction if that is the fate that they deserve. Mr. Darwin’s theory survived a whole century of that and the century in question was No. 20. The one in which the scientific method was applied with much greater rigour than any other in the history of the Earth.
  1. Certainty.
Science hasn’t got to any of that yet.

So.

What would your reaction be if a Whale was born with legs?

Emotel.
 
Most people who have had much to do with the creation/intelligent design vs. evolution debate would agree that both have to be made as a matter of faith…Emotel for one and I for another will never be able to prove either concept, but we both can have mutual respect for each other’s thoughts…The problem comes when the public education system forces only evolution theories and attempts to remove any suggestions that God is our creator…ErnieG
 
But why? When belief that revelation comes from a God is but a belief of man that is devoid of data? It isn’t even a “conclusion”.

A man of conscience would surely see that?
We have plenty of data and experiences. Many of us have daily contact through our faith. We have Revelation, Tradition, the Bible and accumulated wisdom to guide the way.
 
Most people who have had much to do with the creation/intelligent design vs. evolution debate would agree that both have to be made as a matter of faith…Emotel for one and I for another will never be able to prove either concept, but we both can have mutual respect for each other’s thoughts…The problem comes when the public education system forces only evolution theories and attempts to remove any suggestions that God is our creator…ErnieG
Respect is something that every human individual should receive. They have the profound right to individual freedom. But there is a subtly here.

I, of course, respect a person’s right to their views and, as I get to know people here, that is augmented by the dimension of friendship.

But, in this philosophy section we seek the truth. Consequently, if a friend proclaims a falsehood we have a problem. Do we accept and respect what they say because we defend their right to say it or do we oppose it because we think that it is wrong?

I trust that my friends here will understand my position when I express my view that incorrect views should be challenged with some force and that this force should be directed at the argument and not at the person proclaiming it.

Emotel
 
🙂 This is for Emotel…Between a creationist and an evolutionist, where is the falsehood you referred to in your last response? What have you personally observed in the last 25 billion years that gives proof that whales never had feet…Changes in like species is accepted by both creationist/intelligent design and evolutionist…I would respectfully request that you explain what you mean by falsehood…Thank You…ErnieG
 
Cumulative Natural Selection provides that pathway by directing the evolution of a breeding population towards local peaks in the fitness landscape in which reproducers are reproduced.
You make some good points.

But you are ascribing the attribute of prescience to a mere process. If you suggest that it was all natural selection, then natural selection has to “know” the destination in order to bring about the “directed” change you suggest. Direction is a process that implies foreknowledge. Natural selection is a pathway by which some force (including the possibility of pure chance) brought about the development of higher life forms.

I would argue that there is a high probability that no daylight exists between the two options of chance and some form of prescient higher Being. You are herniating natural selection by expecting it to carry the load of “direction”.

A process can’t initiate itself without preexisting constituents. But that would require something coming from nothing. That is, the REAL Nothing, devoid of time and space itself. The particle that exploded at the Big Bang must have come from the real Nothing. But then again, you cannot have “from” without time or space. Highly inconvenient I would say.😉

We may be hung up on what Natural Selection is and isn’t.
 
Most people who have had much to do with the creation/intelligent design vs. evolution debate would agree that both have to be made as a matter of faith…
Not Me.

When I see a new scientific pronouncement I do not accept it as part of scientific “dogma”. I want to hear the arguments and understand the evidence. Even then, I don’t “believe” in the science. I just assign a credibility level and look to the peer reviews for additional perspectives.

Take “cold fusion” for example. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if that was true! I work in the Nuclear Power Industry and I was very sceptical. Science came to the rescue and demonstrated that the results could not be repeated. Sad really but we cannot afford to ignore such feedback from reality.

By the same token, I do not “believe” in evolutionary theory. But I am convinced that it can sustain extraordinary levels of explanatory power regarding the origin of life on Earth.🙂 Consequently, it seems to me that it is the best model we have of how we came to be.

Emotel.
 
What would your reaction be if a Whale was born with legs?
I would want to see that creature and learn about it.

If a bear one day gave birth to a whale, then I would have to say that Darwin thought that could happen.

I think an additonal point of that writing by Darwin is that some people might think that his book would not offer imaginative stories as if they are science.
 
We have plenty of data and experiences. Many of us have daily contact through our faith. We have Revelation, Tradition, the Bible and accumulated wisdom to guide the way.
I have no knowledge of any “daily contact through faith” can you provide an example?

What do you mean by “Revelation”?

I understand “Tradition” and “Bible” but they are the works of mere mortals. As it the belief that they are not.🙂

“Accumulated wisdom”, as distinct from “Tradition” has something going for it but what is the error correction method that parallels the scientific method?

Emotel.
 
Since the essence of Darwin’s great idea remains a cornerstone of modern evolutionary science 150 years after he published his work, it has survived more than the whole of 20th Century science. That’s quite an impressive qualification which probably means that it is your understanding that is at fault rather than the theory. If that is the case you should refrain from bearing false witness and look to improving your understanding.
Again, I’m sorry that I don’t understand what you mean by “bearing false witness”. I offered my opinion about Darwinian theory. We can’t pretend that I am the only person who questions or doubts the claims of Darwinism. I would hope that I am free to agree with other scientists who do not accept Darwinian evolution. Again, I cannot see how they are “bearing false witness” for offering their arguments against this theory. You’re adding some kind of moral element (I think?) to this – again, I don’t understand what you’re saying.

I could quote a scientist who denies that evolution is a cornerstone of biology. I think I should be free to agree with the opinions offered here:

(Quoted from Darwin Strikes Back, Thomas Woodward, (179-181)

Philip Skell, an emeritus professor at Penn State University and member of the National Academy of Science offered this in “The Science” (August 29, 2005):

Darwin’s theory of evolution offers a sweeping explanation of the history of life, from the earliest microscopic organisms billions of years ago to all the plants and animals around us today. Much of the evidence that might have established the theory on an unshakable empirical foundation, however, remains lost in the distant past. For instance, Darwin hoped we would discover transitional precursors to the animal forms that appear abruptly in the Cambrian strata. Since then we have found many ancient fossils—even exquisitely preserved soft-bodied creatures—but none are credible ancestors to the Cambrian animals.

Despite this and other difficulties, the modern form of Darwin’s theory has been raised to its present high status because it’s said to be the cornerstone of modern experimental biology. But is that correct? “While the great majority of biologists would probably agree with Theodosius Dobzhansky’s dictum that ‘nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution,’ most can conduct their work quite happily without particular reference to evolutionary ideas,” A. S. Wilkins, editor of the journal BioEssays, wrote in 2000. “Evolution would appear to be the indispensable unifying idea and, at the same time, a highly superfluous one.”

Skell reports on his informal survey of seventy eminent researchers who explore the biology of the living world. He asked “if they would have done their work differently if they had thought Darwin’s theory was wrong. The responses were all the same: No.” He adds, “From my conversations with leading researchers it had become clear that modern experimental biology gains its strength from the availability of new instruments and methodologies, not from an immersion in historical biology.”
A number of scientists wrote letters, arguing that Skell had overlooked aspects of the usefulness of evolutionary theory. Philip
Skell was permitted to respond to his critics:

My essay about Darwinism and modern experimental biology has stirred up a lively discussion, but the responses still provide no evidence that evolutionary theory is the cornerstone of experimental biology. Comparative physiology and comparative genomics have certainly been fruitful, but comparative biology originated before Darwin and owes nothing to his theory. Before the publication of Origin of Species in 1859, comparative biology focused mainly on morphology because physiology and biochemistry were in their infancy and genomics lay in the future; but the extension of a comparative approach to these subdisciplines depended on the development of new methodologies and instruments, not on evolutionary theory and immersion in historical biology.

One letter mentions directed molecular evolution as a technique to discover antibodies, enzymes, and drugs. Like comparative biology, this has certainly been fruitful, but it is not an application of Darwinian evolution—it is the modern molecular equivalent of classical breeding. Long before Darwin, breeders used artificial selection to develop improved strains of crops and livestock. Darwin extrapolated this in an attempt to explain the origin of new species, but he did not invent the process of artificial selection itself.

It is noteworthy that not one of these critics has detailed an example where Darwin’s Grand Paradigm Theory guided researchers to their goals. In fact, most innovations are not guided by grand paradigms but by far more modest, testable hypotheses. Recognizing this, neither medical schools nor pharmaceutical firms maintain divisions of evolutionary science. The fabulous advances in experimental biology over the past century have had a core dependence on the development of new methodologies and instruments, not on intensive immersion in historical biology and Darwin’s theory, which attempted to historicize the meager documentation.

Evolution is not an observable characteristic of living organisms. What modern experimental biologists study are the mechanisms by which living organisms maintain their stability, without evolving. Organisms oscillate about a median state; and if they deviate significantly from that state, they die. It has been research on these mechanisms of stability, not research guided by Darwin’s theory, which has produced the major fruits of modern biology and medicine. And so I ask again: Why do we invoke Darwin?
 
Some of us would call it a miracle.
Sadly yes you would.

However, the evolutionary explanation is that the genes for the development of legs are still resident in whale DNA as evidence of their land based mammal ancestors. Occassionally these genes get turned on again and a whale is born with legs.

Only the “miracle” of genetics is involved here and the evolutionary model of life on Eath is correspondingly enriched.

Emotel.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top