Theistic Evolution?

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emotel

I want to thank you for your time, energy, and love.

You are a generous individual.
I would say also that he’s a rare individual who can engage in disagreements on this topic without an attitude of bitterness, rancor, arrogance, nastyness, etc., etc. that we’ve seen so often.

Thanks for that, emotel. You make your points far more attractive to consider that way. That is to your credit. 👍
 
Sad how conjecture is called science. All that is being said here is that man is self-created and self-replicating, like a salt crystal. Nowhere is the supposed sequence of events credible. Where did the coded information in DNA or RNA come from? Did they invent themselves?

Statements about evolution like this dehumanize man and are just examples of humanist dogma. “Man invents himself.” Now, man is obviously regarded as a self-creating bag of chemicals whose only purpose is to reproduce successfully. You’re saying your genes made you and control you, aside from occasional bits of environmental (name removed by moderator)ut.

Sad.

Peace,
Ed
 
Sad how conjecture is called science.
A topical scientific “conjecture” is that global warming is a consequence of human avtivity and that maybe, just maybe, we should pay attention to that.

Then there’s the conjecture that Bird-Flu may be able to cross the species barrier and wipe out half of the human race. That would be a vindication of Darwinian theory that no evolutionay scientist would want to see.
All that is being said here is that man is self-created and self-replicating, like a salt crystal.
Self-replicating - yes. Self creating - no.
Nowhere is the supposed sequence of events credible. Where did the coded information in DNA or RNA come from? Did they invent themselves?
I can answer that question. In fact, I already have in our discussion about how the human immune system acquires information about disease organisms and protects us from them.
Statements about evolution like this dehumanize man and are just examples of humanist dogma. “Man invents himself.”
I have never heard a humanist say that? I would certainly not say it. You bear false witness. 🙂
Now, man is obviously regarded as a self-creating bag of chemicals whose only purpose is to reproduce successfully. You’re saying your genes made you and control you, aside from occasional bits of environmental (name removed by moderator)ut.
There seems to be disquiet is your Soul Ed. I talk here of bog-standard science most of which the Church accepts. Are you saying that the church is wrong to do that?

Emotel.
 
Thanks for the photos of whales with “legs”. To me it looks more like a tiny protruding bone that could be any number of things. I noticed some debate on that site about whether they could be called “legs”. In any case, I’m not convinced by that particular example. Although I realize that “some people” are.
 
I talk here of bog-standard science most of which the Church accepts.
I believe you asserted that there was no evidence for the existence of God. That may be your bog-standard science, but it’s not of the kind that the Church can accept.
 
I have never heard a humanist say that? I would certainly not say it. You bear false witness. 🙂
"According to [the humanist] Jean-Paul Sartre, man invents himself, he designs his own ‘essence’ …

Quoted in Victor Frankel’s Man’s Search for Meaning, p 100.

The text can be found entitled “Man Makes Himself” by Jean Paul Sartre.
 
Thanks for the photos of whales with “legs”. To me it looks more like a tiny protruding bone that could be any number of things. I noticed some debate on that site about whether they could be called “legs”. In any case, I’m not convinced by that particular example. Although I realize that “some people” are.
We are now able to decode the informstion in DNA and see what are called HOX genes. This has led to an increased understanding of how organisms develop. The genomes of the Whale and the Hippo have been compared and this provides strong evidence of common ancestry.
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reggieM:
believe you asserted that there was no evidence for the existence of God. That may be your bog-standard science, but it’s not of the kind that the Church can accept.
Gosh! Are you saying that there **IS **scientific evidence that God exists?

If so then please say what it is?

Emotel.
 
"According to [the humanist] Jean-Paul Sartre, man invents himself, he designs his own ‘essence’ …

Quoted in Victor Frankel’s Man’s Search for Meaning, p 100.

The text can be found entitled “Man Makes Himself” by Jean Paul Sartre.
OK so consider this.

Man discovered fire. He could then keep warm, use buring branches to ward of predators and cook food. The cooking made the food easier to digest and it killed disease organisms.

It follows that this discovery fundamentally altered the environment in which humans reproduced reproducers. That means it affected the subsequent evolution of the human race.

Does that mean that man made himself?

Emotel.
 
We are now able to decode the informstion in DNA and see what are called HOX genes. This has led to an increased understanding of how organisms develop. The genomes of the Whale and the Hippo have been compared and this provides strong evidence of common ancestry.

Gosh! Are you saying that there **IS **scientific evidence that God exists?

If so then please say what it is?

Emotel.
If DNA is a buidling block of life why is anyone surprised that we all share them?
 
If DNA is a buidling block of life why is anyone surprised that we all share them?
Well, I was surprised when, in my distant youth, I discovered that the vast majority of lifeforms on Earth use, not only DNA, but also the same genetic code. I knew that, in principle, there were untold billions of different codes that could have been used.

The notion of common ancestry delivers obvious explanatory power here and I found myself wondering why God would design life so the it looked as though it had evolved rather than been created.

I found that very surprising.

Emotel.
 
Well, I was surprised when, in my distant youth, I discovered that the vast majority of lifeforms on Earth use, not only DNA, but also the same genetic code. I knew that, in principle, there were untold billions of different codes that could have been used.

The notion of common ancestry delivers obvious explanatory power here and I found myself wondering why God would design life so the it looked as though it had evolved rather than been created.

I found that very surprising.

Emotel.
Here we go again. Why did He create life dependent on water?
We are all descended from hydrogen.🙂
 
Hello emotel,
You are here promoting atheism. Here’s how I know:

biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/e36_2/darwin_influence.htm

Ed
Why look there? If you want to know what I am promoting then simply ask me and I will tell you.

Hmmm… maybe I’ll tell you anyway.

I am promoting the notion that the truth is vitally important and that we should seek it with honesty and high integeity.

If religion can offer a high integrity pathway to the truth then I will walk that path. However, simply stating belief that it does in not sufficient for me. Science impresses me with the explanatory power it provides backed up by evidence. It also has a powerful error detection and correction mechanism that religion lacks.

Emotel.
 
We are all descended from hydrogen.🙂
I’m pleased to see that your cosmology is up to the mark. Hydrogen is simply a proton plus an electron. The higher elements are manufactured in the stars where neutrons are added.

Emotel.🙂
 
I’m pleased to see that your cosmology is up to the mark. Hydrogen is simply a proton plus an electron. The higher elements are manufactured in the stars where neutrons are added.

Emotel.🙂
No hydrogen, no life. No hydrogen, no stars, no higher elements. HMMMMMMM!:hmmm: We are all descended from hydrogen. I think it’s a pretty good conclusion given the raw data.
 
Why look there? If you want to know what I am promoting then simply ask me and I will tell you.

Hmmm… maybe I’ll tell you anyway.

I am promoting the notion that the truth is vitally important and that we should seek it with honesty and high integeity.

If religion can offer a high integrity pathway to the truth then I will walk that path. However, simply stating belief that it does in not sufficient for me. Science impresses me with the explanatory power it provides backed up by evidence. It also has a powerful error detection and correction mechanism that religion lacks.

Emotel.
Religion contains real information, but you do not consider it so. It is the position of the Catholic Church that science and faith are complementary. What you define as truth is limited. This is not meant as a criticism of your position from a factual standpoint. It is meant to point out that the Church has valid information. If you do not wish to consider this information, that is your choice. However, as some complain that religious believers are annoying due to their prostelytizing the faith, you are attempting to use this forum for a similar purpose. Your constant insistence that your facts makes some of our beliefs untrue is an incomplete argument because, from the Catholic perspective, it lacks vital information.

Catholics will not be making decisions based on your factual assertions since we have aditional, complementary information. So it is not a case of ignoring any facts, but as Pope John Paul II brought up, the facts do not ground the dignity of man. The fact of the matter is that this dignity comes from God and purely mechanistic ideas do not include it.

God bless,
Ed
 
Doesn’t having ATIA imply an interpretive process on the part of that which has access? Otherwise there is no utility to having it.
Yes ATIA (Access To Information About) does imply that the information is acquired and then used in some way.

Consider the Gull on the rock. A cat approaches and it likes to eat Gull. If the Gull doesn’t mind being eaten then that is what happens, the Gull eating cat population thrives and the Gull population dwindles.

If the Gull objects to being the cat’s dinner then it will try to escape by flying away. The cat is lean and hungry. It moves fast and can leap into the air. Gulls with a low Power/Weight Ratio are slow to take off and are caught by the cat. Better equipped Gulls live to escape another day and breed baby gulls with similar capabilities.

The baby Gulls are similar but not identical. Some babies are not as good at escaping as their parents and some are better. This generates a bias because the cats catch more of the slower gulls so the beneficial traits increase in frequency in the Gull population.

The Gulls continue to improve so the cats go hungry and the slow cats starve leaving only the ones fast enough to catch gulls. Baby cats are born that are better than their parents at catching gulls. So an “Arms Race” develops between predator and prey.

After a few million years of this the genomes of gull and cat are “Historically informed” about the environment in which reproducers are reproduced.

This is the process of Natural Selection identified by Darwin. Organisms’ abilities to survive are constantly tested against the environment. This results in adaptation to that environment.
a priori:
Who is the author or what is the source of the information in ATIA?
If you are asking “Who is the Author of the laws of physics and the material content of the Universe” then science has to say that it doesn’t know. If religious people say that they do know then I ask "How can you know something (Rather than just believe you know) that science doesn’t know)?

Given the existence of the laws of physics and the Earth in orbit around the sun, Evolution by Natural Selection is clearly able to cause replicating organisms to accumulate information about the environment and cause those organism to become historically informed and well adapted to it. The environments have corresponding “Fitness Landscapes” and Natural Selection directs the evolution of breeding populations towards local peaks in those landscapes.

Natural Selection is ***NOT ***a “Random Process” is it a ***DIRECTED ***process.
a priori:
It seems that chance doesn’t make sense to anyone.
Indeed so.
a priori:
But many people just have too much at stake to allow themselves the objective possibility that God might exist and that He is informing the process of natural selection.
Well that’s not my position and even Richard Dawkins would not go that far.

However, I see no evidence that God, Allah, Satan or Aliens are informing Natural Selection as it proceeds. I see “Nature, red-raw in tooth and claw” and that means that Satan must be the top suspect for this horrific way of accumulating the mere 3 billion base pairs in human DNA. A God would surely just create that in an instant without 4 billion years of horrific Dog-eat-Dog and Cat-eat-Gull carnage.
a priori:
To accomplish this, one has to build up NS as its own creative entity, rendering God unnecessary.
Yes I agree with that.
a priori:
This reminds me of the Reagan administration calling ketchup a vegetable during the debate over the funding of school programs.

One can pump all the cosmic steroids they want into NS but it will never bulk up to the status of sole creative force in the evolution of life. IMHO. (But then again, I’ve already stipulated my epistemological credentials.)
In that you state a belief and not an explanation. Evolutionary Theory delivers enormous explanatory power that is backed up by evidence. If it can be shown to be wrong then science and scientists would not object to that. They would be very interested in the argument.
a priori:
Fair enough. Where did it come from? Remember, using words derived from any time or space reference is cheating.🙂
Science doesn’t know where the Universe came from and I cannot know what science doesn’t know. So I don’t know where it came from.

Emotel.
 
However, I see no evidence that God, Allah, Satan or Aliens are informing Natural Selection as it proceeds. I see “Nature, red-raw in tooth and claw” and that means that Satan must be the top suspect for this horrific way of accumulating the mere 3 billion base pairs in human DNA. A God would surely just create that in an instant without 4 billion years of horrific Dog-eat-Dog and Cat-eat-Gull carnage.
Interesting point. The Bible does say the following…
God did not make death, nor does He rejoice in the destruction of the living. For He fashioned all things that they might have being; and the creatures of the world are wholesome. And there is not a destructive drug among them nor any domain of the nether world on earth, for justice is undying. For God formed man to be imperishable; the image of His own nature He made him. But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it.
Wisdom 1:13-15 &; 2:23-24
This might be part of the “cosmic vengeance” you brought up before. Interestingly, disease also seems to play a part in evolutionary trends too. I suspect that incidents like this have probably played a part in the evolution of life on Earth before. And it is not outside the realm of God’s Providence to allow bad things to bring about good things too.
 
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