Theistic Evolutionary Theory...this may be the key to ushering in the era of Messiah!?

[DennisTate]

I would so love for my daughter to be exposed to the idea that perhaps God evolved and is ultimately a Scientist/Inventor composed of fundamental energy.

Did God Evolve?
I actually do believe in evolution but I think that anybody who would dogmatically limit evolution to our four dimensional space time continuum lacks basic mathematical aptitude.

Back in the 1990’s I read several articles on GUT and string theory. Later on I read Stephen Hawking’s Universe. in his chapter The Anthropic Principle he speculated that perhaps there were an infinite number of unsuccessful universes out there somewhere in which was no life due to the fact that electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force were not properly tuned for life as we know it. It seems obvious to me that another possibility is that the first intelligent life form might be composed of energy. Probably a fundamental energy such as SuperForce or Super Energetic Matter which may be the common denominator for all four forces active in our fourth space time dimensional continuum.

13.72 billion years is roughly equal to ZERO time when compared with eternity. If fundamental energy would always have existed, as I assume Dr. Hawking seems to believe due to his suspicion of their having been an infinite number of unsuccessful universes and probably Big Bang + Grand Collapses, then if evolutionary theory could be expanded to have occurred within infinite time as opposed to limiting abiogenesis and evolution to abouit 4.5 billion years than you increase the probability of evolution being possible by essentially an infinite factor! I do believe in evolution occurring, but I suspect that perhaps 99% of evolution probably occurred before our Big Bang which was probably planned and choreographed by the Life Form/life forms that would probably be composed of fundamental energy.

Is evolution more probable to have occurred within 13 billion years or within eternity?

I must admit that these ideas about invisible higher space time dimensions sure does remind me of what many people who have a brush with death report.

near-death.com/ritch.html

Jesus gives him a tour of four different dimensions in the
afterlife. They both fly toward a large city on Earth where they notice
a group of assembly-line workers at work. He witnesses the spirit of a woman trying desperately to obtain a cigarette from the workers who are oblivious to her presence. This woman died severely addicted to cigarettes.

In a house, Jesus shows him the spirit of a boy following a living teenage
girl and begging for forgiveness while the girl is completely unaware of the boy’s presence. Jesus tells George that the boy committed suicide and is “chained to every consequence of his act.”

Jesus shows George a bar filled with sailors who are heavily drinking.
Spirits try desperately and in vain to get a drink or to control the sailors’ alcoholic behavior. These spirits are from humans who die severely alcoholic.

He is horrified as he observes a drunken sailor pass out and an alcoholic spirit jump into the body of the sailor. Jesus takes him to a new dimension away from Earth and shows him a kind of “receiving station” where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of their beliefs. These are spirits who believe they must sleep after death until Jesus returns.(George Ritchie)

 

[Barbkw]

“…perhaps God evolved and is ultimately a Scientist/Inventor composed of fundamental energy.”

That God was an intelligent scientist once upon a time, long long ago? Glorified Wizard of Oz.

Kinda like the naked Blue Man on Watchmen, who could split himself three ways to satisfy everyone?

 

[Nine_Two]

This is directly contrary to the claim of both scripture and Holy Tradition that God is unchanging,

That said I didn’t vote because neither of the two “anti” options in this poll reflect my opinion. Religion and Science are completely compatible, nor is it an improvement over philosophical evolution.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Not sure how to reply to the poll as I’m not particularly offended, but I’m pretty sure the idea is wrong.

In traditional Christianity, and Catholicism in particular, God is believed to be immutable (unchanging and unchangeable) as well as omnipotent. The idea that God was somehow improving as he built stuff suggests that at one point he was less than perfect at it, which doesn’t work with the idea of an omnipotence etc.

“That the Divine nature is essentially immutable, or incapable of any internal change, is an obvious corollary from Divine infinity. Changeableness implies the capacity for increase or diminution of perfection, that is, it implies finiteness and imperfection. But God is infinitely perfect and is necessarily what He is.”

newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

If you want to think of evolution in a way that does not exclude God, you can think of it as a very complicated pool shot. The pocketing of specific balls is an intended goal, and is done by God, but rather than picking them up and dropping them in directly, He lets balls hit balls that hit balls that knock balls where He wants them to go.

 

[LongJourney]

This is a blasphemous idea. Man’s perception of God changes, as human thought evolves. An objectively evolving God is a Mormonish idea.

 

[Apollos]

…you increase the probability of evolution being possible by essentially an infinite factor!

If that were true, then anything that can occur has already occurred, which is obviously false.

And the past cannot be infinitely long because … well, here we are.

 

[Barbkw]

P.S. “…the key to ushering in the era of Messiah!?”

That happening almost 2,000 years ago, and Jesus is the key.

And, Stephen Hawking, has successfully “thunk” creation of the universe outside the realm of Divinity.

 

[JHow]

Evolution is change over time. God is extra-temporal. Hence, He did not evolve.

 

[SteveVH]

I would so love for my daughter to be exposed to the idea that perhaps God evolved and is ultimately a Scientist/Inventor composed of fundamental energy.

Did God Evolve?
I actually do believe in evolution but I think that anybody who would dogmatically limit evolution to our four dimensional space time continuum lacks basic mathematical aptitude.

Back in the 1990’s I read several articles on GUT and string theory. Later on I read Stephen Hawking’s Universe. in his chapter The Anthropic Principle he speculated that perhaps there were an infinite number of unsuccessful universes out there somewhere in which was no life due to the fact that electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force were not properly tuned for life as we know it. It seems obvious to me that another possibility is that the first intelligent life form might be composed of energy. Probably a fundamental energy such as SuperForce or Super Energetic Matter which may be the common denominator for all four forces active in our fourth space time dimensional continuum.

13.72 billion years is roughly equal to ZERO time when compared with eternity. If fundamental energy would always have existed, as I assume Dr. Hawking seems to believe due to his suspicion of their having been an infinite number of unsuccessful universes and probably Big Bang + Grand Collapses, then if evolutionary theory could be expanded to have occurred within infinite time as opposed to limiting abiogenesis and evolution to abouit 4.5 billion years than you increase the probability of evolution being possible by essentially an infinite factor! I do believe in evolution occurring, but I suspect that perhaps 99% of evolution probably occurred before our Big Bang which was probably planned and choreographed by the Life Form/life forms that would probably be composed of fundamental energy.

Is evolution more probable to have occurred within 13 billion years or within eternity?

I must admit that these ideas about invisible higher space time dimensions sure does remind me of what many people who have a brush with death report.

near-death.com/ritch.html

We don’t have to guess anymore. God has revealed Himself completely in the person of Jesus Christ. He has revealed Himself as the uncaused cause, the alpha and the omega. He is the Creator of all things, even scientists.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Are you offended by the idea of God evolving?

not offended but…the idea of God evolving?
The mind reels. What will they think of next?

 

[xixxvmcm85]

I’d like a little more specificity with your question before I vote. It appeared to me at first that you were asking whether the idea of God evolving (i.e. being an evolved being) is palatable, but then upon reading your details it seems you’re asking if the idea of God utilizing evolution to create (while still possibly being the same yesterday, today, and forever) is compatible with our individual beliefs.

I have starkly different answers for each so some clarification is in order.

Thanks.

 

[Charlotte408]

Well, okay, I came here because I believe in ‘Theistic Evolution’, but, I’ve never heard of it in the way the OP says, ‘God is evolving’, what I know Theistic Evolution to be is:

Theistic evolution and evolutionary creationism are similar concepts that assert that classical religious teachings about God are compatible with the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. In short, theistic evolutionists believe that there is a God, that God is the creator of the material universe and (by consequence) all life within, and that biological evolution is simply a natural process within that creation. Evolution, according to this view, is simply a tool that God employed to develop human life.

Am I okay by church teachings to believe this? Cause I do… I don’t want to be heretic or anything…so if this is out of line lemme know…

It just seems like its either ‘science’ or ‘creationism’ and its some sort of false dichotomy. Why can’t it be both?

 

[edward_george]

God would not evolve. God is pure being–he simply is. To evolve implies potentiality, and there is no potentiality in God. This is a nice, novel idea, but it doesn’t gel with basic theology at all.

-ACEGC

 

[campeador]

Poorly worded poll…

 

[DennisTate]

This is directly contrary to the claim of both scripture and Holy Tradition that God is unchanging,

That said I didn’t vote because neither of the two “anti” options in this poll reflect my opinion. Religion and Science are completely compatible, nor is it an improvement over philosophical evolution.

I truly appreciate your replying to the topic though and I am both surprised and in many ways somewhat encouraged by the response which is so different than what I got back when I put this idea over on atheistic debate groups!

I have came to the conclusion that the near death experience accounts ultimately fit perfectly with II Corinthians 12:2-4 but obviously many Catholics are not in agreement with this idea.

near-death.com/experiences/storm02.html

Next, they wanted to talk about my life. To my surprise my life played out before me, maybe six or eight feet in front of me, from beginning to end. The life review was very much in their control, and they showed me my life, but not from my point of view. I saw me in my life and this whole thing was a lesson, even though I didn’t know it at the time. They were trying to teach me something, but I didn’t know it was a teaching experience, because I didn’t know that I would be coming back.

We just watched my life from beginning to the end. Some things they slowed down on, and zoomed in on and other things they went right through. My life was shown in a way that I had never thought of before. All of the things that I had worked to achieve, the recognition that I had worked for, in elementary school, in high school, in college, and in my career, they meant nothing in this setting.

To my thinking this sure fits with Baruch 6:6

 

[DennisTate]

drbo.org/chapter/30006.htm

[6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls.

drbo.org/chapter/54012.htm

I know a man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth), [4] That he was caught up into paradise, and heard secret words, which it is not granted to man to utter.

 

[DennisTate]

If that were true, then anything that can occur has already occurred, which is obviously false.

And the past cannot be infinitely long because … well, here we are.

But Apollos, why were the thoughts of God toward King David essentially without limit?

Psalm 138:

Thy eyes did see my imperfect being, and in thy book all shall be written: days shall be formed, and no one in them. [17] But to me thy friends, O God, are made exceedingly honourable: their principality is exceedingly strengthened. [18] I will number them, and they shall be multiplied above the sand: I rose up and am still with thee

Could it be that God has allowed us humans essentially infinite freedom of choice so whatever King David did profoundly affected the future?

Could the prophet Elijah have at the minimum delayed the Assyrian conquest of the northern ten tribes if he had NOT ran away to Mt. Horeb but instead had confronted Queen Jezebel and her armies such as he later did in II Kings 1?

 

[DennisTate]

Doesn’t it seem rather obvious that the prophet Elijah WAS NOT where God had wanted him to be at this moment?

drbo.org/chapter/11019.htm

[9] And when he was come thither, he abode in a cave: and behold the word of the Lord came unto him, and he said to him: What dost thou here, Elias?

 

[DennisTate]

If that were true, then anything that can occur has already occurred, which is obviously false.

And the past cannot be infinitely long because … well, here we are.

I worded this in this way in order to try to make a point to a skeptic. I am comparing high probability with low probability by increasing the factor of time. This type of statement comes across very differently to a deeply religious person than it would be viewed by Dr. Richard Dawkins or somebody with a similar view of the world to him.

Here are some quotation on GUT and String Theory that I believe we religious people could use to convince skeptics of the possible reality to the NDE accounts which I believe is a truly good step in the right direction!?

“It was not until 1920 that the idea of linking electromagnetism and
gravity resurfaced. At that time a new theory of gravitation had been proposed by Albert Einstein (1879-1955), called the general theory of relativity. It was a replacement of Newton’s theory, which had stood unchallenged since 1687. Inspired by Einstein’s work, a young German mathematician named Theodore Kaluza was seized by a curious idea. The theory of relativity links space an time together to form a four-dimensional space-time continuum. What would happen, mused Kaluza, if general relativity were formulated in five rather than four dimensions? This is what Kaluza did, and to everyone’s astonishment it was discovered that five-dimensional gravity obeys the same laws as
four-dimensional gravity as well as Maxwell’s laws for the electromagnetic field. In other words, gravitation and electromagnetism are automatically unified in five dimensions, where electromagnetism is merely a component of gravity!”

The only drawback of the theory concerns the extra dimension. Why
don’t we see it? An ingenious answer was provided by Oskar Klein. A
hosepipe viewed from afar looks like a wiggly line, i.e. one- dimensional.
However, on closer inspection it can be seen as a narrow tube. It is, in fact,
two-dimensional, and what was taken to be a point on the line is actually a
little circle going around the tube. In the same way, reasoned Klein, what we normally regard as a point in three dimensional space could in reality be a little circle going around a fourth space dimension. Thus Kaluza’s extra
dimension might well exist, but be impossible to detect because it is closed
(circular) and rolled up to a very small circumference. In spite of
these bizarre overtones, it seems probable that in future a “theory of everything” will make use of the idea of unseen higher dimensions."
…

“Although nature manifests four distinct forces, physicists believe that
each may be part of a smaller number of more primitive forces. At high energy, the electromagnetic and weak forces appear to merge into a single “electroweak” force. Some “grand unified theories” suggest that a further amalgamation takes place between the electroweak and strong forces at as yet unattained energies. The most ambitious unification schemes envisage an amalgamation of all four forces into a single “superforce” at ultra-high levels of energy. ( A Theory of Everything” Volume 21 of "The World of
Science)

 

[Apollos]

But Apollos…

Well if you want to get precise, the number of grains of sand is finite, and is less than the next finite number. But I don’t see what this has to do with unlikely events becoming inevitable given enough time.