Theistic evolutionism and Scripture

[Sparrows]

Is theistic evolutionism consistent with Scripture?

If you think so, please explain how this theory can be harmonized with the Genesis account of Adam and Eve, the timeline implied by the Biblical genealogies, and the unity of the human race.

Thank you for your time.

 

[teachccd]

Hi and welcome to the forum!! I hope that you find the many great people and answers that I have found here.

When we read the Creation accounts in the first two chapters of Genesis we have to remember that there were no witnesses to this event. And we have to know that all Scripture is free from error and the inspired Word of God. So then, how do we reconcile the scientific findings concerning evolution and the biblical renderings of creation?

The entire Bible is a revelation of who God is and His love and saving actions for His people. The Scriptures are written in many generes, or literary forms, to convey a truth about who God is and how we can be in union with Him for all eternity.

With that said, could God have given the beginnings of humanity all of the scientific details of how we were created? Yes, of course but that would be like having a computer programmer going into a first grade classroom and describing the intricate details of computer programming. With first graders you first start with the “smart box” and then use the words that they can understand. “This box has a brain, like ours and it can remember, like us and it can do many wonderful smart things just like we can.”

God knows that the details would be of no advantage to those who would not yet understand so He gives us what we could understand at that time. The first 11 chapters of Genesis should be considered the parables of God relating who He is and how we should respond to an Almighty God who is our creator and our Love.

The Church does not say that we cannot believe that those events actually took place but we cannot refute scientific findings in favor of the literal interpretation of Genesis. Science is discovering God and the power of what He can do. So, theistic evolution can neatly fit right into the biblical accounts. We went from the computer just being a “smart box”, which it actually is and that is truth, to a more intelligent rendering whereby we can talk about the motherboard, graphics, memory, etc. (I’m not a computer person maybe I should have picked another example ) But you get my idea.

Truth is that God created everything and He created a single set of parents who fell into sin. These are the important truths because this is what continues to affect us today with original sin and personal sin. Genesis 3:15 is important as our “first Gospel” (protoevangelium) because God promises us a Savior and the rest of salvation history springboards from there.

I hope that some of what I said helps. The most important thing, I think, is to thank the scientist for their continual unveilng of the marvels of God and His creation…God Bless…teachccd

 

[Sparrows]

Hello Teach,

Thank you for your warm welcome.

The Church does not say that we cannot believe that those events actually took place but we cannot refute scientific findings in favor of the literal interpretation of Genesis.

Science is neither infallible nor irrefutable. Over the millenia there have been many paradigm shifts, and theories that were previously regarded as irrefutable have been replaced by new theories.

There is no reason to suppose that evolutionary theory will not experience a similar fate, for it depends upon questionable assumptions:

1. That life can randomly arise from nonliving matter.
2. That a random process can guide simple creatures to evolve into more complex creatures, eventually giving rise to human consciousness.
3. That each stratum in a rock formation represents millions of years.
4. That random genetic mutations can sometimes be beneficial, giving rise to new genetic material and new species.
5. That radiometric and carbon dating methods are infallible.

If you are interested in exploring these crticisms in further depth, follow these links:
noevolution.org/
catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/science/earth-young-old1.htm

Truth is that God created everything and He created a single set of parents who fell into sin.

The Bible states that Adam was created from the dust of the earth and Eve from his side. Evolution states that humankind has an uninterrupted lineage stretching back to the first single-celled creatures. Was Adam specially created, body and soul, or did he have non-human parents?

Furthermore, you did not address the part of my question about the discordance between the evolutionary timescale and the timescale implied by the Genesis genealogies. Evolutionary theory states that the first humans existed hundreds of thousands of years ago,while the Genesis genealogies date Adam and Eve to ten or fifteen thousand years ago (at most). How would a theistic evolutionist of the Jewish or Catholic faith reconcile this difference?

These links provide more information on this topic:
youtube.com/watch?v=ExPyX_etOog&feature=related
catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/science/genesis.htm

All of the links I have provided above are from a young earth creationist website run by a Catholic apologist (Robert Sungenis). I was formerly a theistic evolutionist but I now think that it is an inconsistent philosophy.

Are there any theistic evolutionists who can answer the questions I have posed, or offer strong criticisms of Robert Sungenis’ young earth philosophy?

 

[tobinatorstark]

The Bible states that Adam was created from the dust of the earth and Eve from his side. Evolution states that humankind has an uninterrupted lineage stretching back to the first single-celled creatures. Was Adam specially created, body and soul, or did he have non-human parents?
/QUOTE]

Adam was created specially body and soul. He didn’t have non-human parents. He was created by a God, who is a the almighty spirit. God will always exist and as is always living. Example of this are shown through the Bible. The Bible that I do recommend the most that show a great deal of history is the Douay-Rheims Challoner edition by Baronius Press. After Apocalypse there is timeline and historical reference of events. If evolution is true than that would put the Bible in a false predicament. As I believe the Bible is literal. Through God’s grace such extraordinary spiritual gifts can be obtained. Explain to me how can evolution not contradict the Bible if the Bible is God’s word

 

[narrowpath]

I don’t like the “evolution is just a theory” argument. Its like saying "It’s called the theory of gravity. Its just a theory. In science, theory means fact.

I believe in thiestic evolution. I believe genesis is a mythical account of something that really happened. Adam and eve existed, I believe they represent the first humans with human souls. They sinned, and fell from grace. I believe that eden represents the state of grace, and them being ejected represents how through sinning they rejected this grace, bringing original sin onto humanity.

I used to be a young earth creationist. After examining the evidence. I had to change my opinion.

 

[narrowpath]

I recommend the book “The Language of God” by Francis collins.

 

[teachccd]

I will respectfully bow out of this and watch as it unfolds by those who have more information on this topic. This is a very charged debate of which I have been a part of before and all I can say is that it neither adds nor detracts from the message of salvation.Whether the earth is indeed 6000 years old or 14 billion years old only wins a battle. The war is how we can uphold the teachings of Christ in a world that is now enveloped with war, starvation, disease, social injustices and so many other evils. So, you let me know how old the world is and how we came to be and I’ll continue to find out how we are to bring Christ to such a destructive planet, however old it may be. I know that God created everything and that I am a special creation of His as well as everyone here. I know that Scripture is the inspired and inerrant Word of God pointing us to an eternity with our Creator.

I do not mean to undermine the importance of accurate biblical interpretation but it just seems to me that if I were to pick my battles, this would not be one of them…and I will follow this thread for my peaked interest…God Bless…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

I don’t like the “evolution is just a theory” argument. Its like saying "It’s called the theory of gravity. Its just a theory. In science, theory means fact.

I believe in thiestic evolution. I believe genesis is a mythical account of something that really happened. Adam and eve existed, I believe they represent the first humans with human souls. They sinned, and fell from grace. I believe that eden represents the state of grace, and them being ejected represents how through sinning they rejected this grace, bringing original sin onto humanity.

I used to be a young earth creationist. After examining the evidence. I had to change my opinion.

I’m with you on this one but I did say that I would bow out so here I go…teachccd :sad_bye:

 

[narrowpath]

Yeah. Its crazy how this debate can rage out of control.

 

[tobinatorstark]

I don’t like the “evolution is just a theory” argument. Its like saying "It’s called the theory of gravity. Its just a theory. In science, theory means fact.

I believe in thiestic evolution. I believe genesis is a mythical account of something that really happened. Adam and eve existed, I believe they represent the first humans with human souls. They sinned, and fell from grace. I believe that eden represents the state of grace, and them being ejected represents how through sinning they rejected this grace, bringing original sin onto humanity.

I used to be a young earth creationist. After examining the evidence. I had to change my opinion.

Explain to me how Genesis is a mythical account.What evidence changed your mind please give source??

 

[buffalo]

No.

 

[Sparrows]

I don’t like the “evolution is just a theory” argument. Its like saying "It’s called the theory of gravity. Its just a theory. In science, theory means fact.

Narrowpath, “theory” does not mean “fact”. Evolution has not been proven and is open to debate. I have just finished watching Ben Stein’s “Expelled for Intelligence” documentary, in which many scientists suggest that evolutionary theory is crumbling under the weight of new discoveries in genetics and molecular biology.

Also, before calling evolutionary theory a “fact” please watch the documentary I have linked in my above post: noevolution.org/.

I believe in thiestic evolution. I believe genesis is a mythical account of something that really happened. Adam and eve existed, I believe they represent the first humans with human souls.

I know what theistic evolutionists believe, for I was one. But please answer the questions I have asked. Here they are again:

The Bible states that Adam was created from the dust of the earth and Eve from his side. Evolution states that humankind has an uninterrupted lineage stretching back to the first single-celled creatures. Was Adam specially created, body and soul, or did he have non-human parents?

Furthermore, you did not address the part of my question about the discordance between the evolutionary timescale and the timescale implied by the Genesis genealogies. Evolutionary theory states that the first humans existed hundreds of thousands of years ago,while the Genesis genealogies date Adam and Eve to ten or fifteen thousand years ago (at most). How would a theistic evolutionist of the Jewish or Catholic faith reconcile this difference?

I used to be a young earth creationist. After examining the evidence. I had to change my opinion.

I am not yet a young earth creationist - but I might become one if a theistic evolutionist doesn’t give me some straight answers!

So, you let me know how old the world is and how we came to be and I’ll continue to find out how we are to bring Christ to such a destructive planet, however old it may be.

Teach, please do not patronize me. In order to bring Christ to our sinful planet we must be able to answer difficult questions about Scripture. I ask this question not only out of curiousity, but in order to offer a consistent explanation of Scripture to those with whom I share the Gospel.

The real existence of Adam and Eve is a fundamental aspect of our faith, as the doctrine of original sin hinges upon it. So if someone asks me about how Adam and Eve can be reconciled with the theory of evolution (if it even can), I need to know how to answer this question.

No.

There’s the type of straight answer I’m looking for!

 

[cassini]

Is theistic evolutionism consistent with Scripture?

If you think so, please explain how this theory can be harmonized with the Genesis account of Adam and Eve, the timeline implied by the Biblical genealogies, and the unity of the human race.

Thank you for your time.

Sparrows, nice to meet you fellow convert from absurd evolutionist to young earth creationist. I too was once a theistic evolutionist. For forty years I twisted Catholic theology to try to make it comply with my evolutionary INDOCTRINATION. Then I met an American (i’m Irish) who loaned me a couple of books on the subject. It took me TEN minutes to realise I had been taken for a ride by my educators, for anyone with that intelligence given to us as a gift from God SHOULD see the truth very quickly.
After that, for 10 years actually, I read everything I could on the subject. Why I even typed up a book myself thinking the Catholic world needed to be informed, just as I was. Then horror of horrors, I discovered a Cardinal by the name of Ratzinger had written a book IN THE BEGINNING in 1981 trying to give us an answer to your opening question. He was dubbed a ‘genius’, a ‘theologian of giant standing, a future pope.’ Then I found out popes from Pius XII were ALL theistic evolutionists. So, picture the scene, here I was, hoping to educate the flock as to the absurdities of evolutionism, and I find out popes for 60 years were up to their necks in it. See sparrows, you cannot compete with the OPINIONS of popes, and this will be thrown back at you time after time. I consigned my book into the waste paper bin and lost all interest in Modern theology.

My advice Sparrows is to forget it, you will end up a frustrated Catholic and lose hope. You will never get a CATHOLIC answer to your question for the simple reason that there is no such answer. These people PREFER evolutionism to the simple faith in God’s creative fiat. Converts from evolutionism to creationism as as rare as hen’s teeth. The devil has a grip on the human intellect just like drugs have on the drug addict. Proof of this is when one sees popes offering inbicilic reasoning to the flock when it is their duty to PROTECT the flock from false reasoning.

Two other points worth mentioning. Do not waste your time arguing the methods of evolutionism such as the mutation additions they claim for advances. Do not waste your time listening to their inbicilic reasons whereby limbs, organs and abilities like sight evolved from lumps of cellular jelly. Just ask them ONE thing: How did ‘NATURAL’ life begin? They will be lost. Without an answer to this question, the rest is MEANINGLESS.

Last point, You do know sparrows that this is Satan’s work. Making nonsense of the Scriptures in the eyes of ‘RATIONAL’ man is Satan’s doing. He works on pride, and this SCIENCE is the MOTHER of all intellectual pride sources.

Hope you extrapolated backwards to see where it all started,so that you can understand the why of of it all. Who laid down Satan’s master plan in the first place? I hope your Catholic journey has taken you back in time to the greatest mass illusion of all time, that Galileo was right and that the Catholic Church was WRONG. If this is true, then I suggest those who believe it is look for the true faith elsewhere.

 

[Orogeny]

Science is neither infallible nor irrefutable. Over the millenia there have been many paradigm shifts, and theories that were previously regarded as irrefutable have been replaced by new theories.

That’s right. Right now, however, there are no other scientific explanations for all the data that is explained by the current theory. Any new theory would have to explain all the current data better than the current theory.

There is no reason to suppose that evolutionary theory will not experience a similar fate,

That’s also right, but, again, any new theory would have to account for the data we have right now.

for it depends upon questionable assumptions:

1. That life can randomly arise from nonliving matter.

No, it doesn’t.

1. That a random process can guide simple creatures to evolve into more complex creatures, eventually giving rise to human consciousness.

No, it doesn’t.

1. That each stratum in a rock formation represents millions of years.

No, it doesn’t.

1. That random genetic mutations can sometimes be beneficial, giving rise to new genetic material and new species.

Partially true.

1. That radiometric and carbon dating methods are infallible.

No, it doesn’t.

You have fallen for some falsehoods put out by opponents of science. If you want to learn about science, you need to learn it from scientists, not apologists that have little or no scientific background.

If you are interested in exploring these crticisms in further depth, follow these links:
noevolution.org/
catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/science/earth-young-old1.htm

Those are some of the typical YEC sites, but, again, no science.

The Bible states that Adam was created from the dust of the earth and Eve from his side. Evolution states that humankind has an uninterrupted lineage stretching back to the first single-celled creatures. Was Adam specially created, body and soul, or did he have non-human parents?

I believe that he had non-human parents and became human when he was given an immortal soul.

Furthermore, you did not address the part of my question about the discordance between the evolutionary timescale and the timescale implied by the Genesis genealogies. Evolutionary theory states that the first humans existed hundreds of thousands of years ago,while the Genesis genealogies date Adam and Eve to ten or fifteen thousand years ago (at most). How would a theistic evolutionist of the Jewish or Catholic faith reconcile this difference?

The geneological timelines are wrong.

These links provide more information on this topic:
youtube.com/watch?v=ExPyX_etOog&feature=related
catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/science/genesis.htm

All of the links I have provided above are from a young earth creationist website run by a Catholic apologist (Robert Sungenis). I was formerly a theistic evolutionist but I now think that it is an inconsistent philosophy.

Yes, we are very familiar with Sungenis. He often sends his disciples here to argue. Are you one of them?

Are there any theistic evolutionists who can answer the questions I have posed, or offer strong criticisms of Robert Sungenis’ young earth philosophy?

Stick around and you will get your wish. Unfortunately, if you are like other Sungenis disciples, it won’t matter because you will dismiss the answers without even understanding what you are dismissing.

By the way, I reject geocentrism as well. Sungenis has not convinced me that I, as a Catholic, must accept that as the official Church teaching.

Peace

Tim

 

[cassini]

orogeny states: ‘I believe that he had non-human parents and became human when he was given an immortal soul.’

The best way to treat such ideas is to give them the contempt they deserve.

Adam and eve were given permission by God to go out and kill to eat. They trapped themselves a couple of hominoids (pre-human lookalikes). Chatting to God at the meal, God said to them: ‘enjoying your father and mother then folks?’ Yes, it seems Adam and eve had killed their parents and made a pie out of them. How about that story from the Bible then?

 

[Orogeny]

The best way to treat such ideas is to give them the contempt they deserve.

Adam and eve were given permission by God to go out and kill to eat. They trapped themselves a couple of hominoids (pre-human lookalikes). Chatting to God at the meal, God said to them: ‘enjoying your father and mother then folks?’ Yes, it seems Adam and eve had killed their parents and made a pie out of them. How about that story from the Bible then?

Or how about Cardinal Ratzinger’s version:

“While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.”

From **Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God, **The July 2004 Vatican Statement on Creation and Evolution

bringyou.to/apologetics/p80.htm

Peace

Tim

 

[Sparrows]

Sparrows, nice to meet you fellow convert from absurd evolutionist to young earth creationist.

Nice to meet you too, Cassini; however:

I am not yet a young earth creationist - but I might become one if a theistic evolutionist doesn’t give me some straight answers!

You will never get a CATHOLIC answer to your question for the simple reason that there is no such answer.

I am starting to get that impression.

You do know sparrows that this is Satan’s work. Making nonsense of the Scriptures in the eyes of ‘RATIONAL’ man is Satan’s doing. He works on pride, and this SCIENCE is the MOTHER of all intellectual pride sources.

Well said.

Any new theory would have to explain all the current data better than the current theory.

This is true and so far in my reading, Sungenis and the young earthists leave many questions unanswered.

Those are some of the typical YEC sites, but, again, no science.

The documentary linked by noevolution.org/ provides a series of interviews with scientists, one of which (Dr. Giertych) appears in Ben Stein’s 2008 documentary “Expelled for Intelligence”.

I believe that he had non-human parents and became human when he was given an immortal soul.

Did Adam’s non-human parents and their descendents then go extinct?

The geneological timelines are wrong.

As a Catholic I believe that the Church is the sole interpreter of Scripture. Provide me with an official Church document stating that the genealogical timelines are wrong.

Stick around and you will get your wish. Unfortunately, if you are like other Sungenis disciples, it won’t matter because you will dismiss the answers without even understanding what you are dismissing.

I do not work for Sungenis. I am a young man, 21 years old, baptized, but not raised, in the Catholic Church. I recently began practicing my faith again and I am looking for answers to these difficult questions that had prevented me from accepting Catholicism in the past.

Theistic evolutionism is an inconsistent theory and you have not proven otherwise. Sungenis offers a theory which is internally consistent and consistent with Scripture and Tradition. Obviously, though, it is absolutely inconsistent with mainstream science, which is why I am extremely hesistant to become a young earth creationist.

I am here to receive help from my brothers and sisters in Christ, and not to be patronized. Let us all act in a Christlike manner in this debate, helping each other towards a greater understanding of the Scriptures instead of hurling accusations and being sarcastic.

 

[Orogeny]

This is true and so far in my reading, Sungenis and the young earthists leave many questions unanswered.

Actually, from a scientific standpoint, they don’t answer ANY questions.

The documentary linked by noevolution.org/ provides a series of interviews with scientists, one of which (Dr. Giertych) appears in Ben Stein’s 2008 documentary “Expelled for Intelligence”.

Expelled expelled any Christian scientists who accept evolution and reject intelligent design. Expelled is clearly a propaganda film and has nothing to do with science.

Did Adam’s non-human parents and their descendents then go extinct?

I don’t know, but at least one of their descendents clearly didn’t go extinct - Adam.

As a Catholic I believe that the Church is the sole interpreter of Scripture. Provide me with an official Church document stating that the genealogical timelines are wrong.

Show me the official Church document stating that the geneological timelines are to be used to calculate the date of the creation of man.

I do not work for Sungenis. I am a young man, 21 years old, baptized, but not raised, in the Catholic Church. I recently began practicing my faith again and I am looking for answers to these difficult questions that had prevented me from accepting Catholicism in the past.

Why would anything to do with evolution keep you from the Church? The Church allows you to accept or reject evolution as you see fit. Regardless of what Sungenis suggests, one doesn’t have to be a YEC or a geocentrist to be a good Catholic.

Theistic evolutionism is an inconsistent theory and you have not proven otherwise.

I cannot prove it because it is made up of two things - a scientific theory (which, as you know, can never be proven) and a statement of faith.

Sungenis offers a theory which is internally consistent and consistent with Scripture and Tradition. Obviously, though, it is absolutely inconsistent with mainstream science, which is why I am extremely hesistant to become a young earth creationist.

Sungenis offers no scientific theories, he only offers his personal opinions. Don’t be confused by this.

I am here to receive help from my brothers and sisters in Christ, and not to be patronized.

I’m not being patronizing. I have had these types of conversations before and I see a pattern to your posts that is eerily familiar to the Sungenis disciples (SDs).

Let us all act in a Christlike manner in this debate, helping each other towards a greater understanding of the Scriptures instead of hurling accusations and being sarcastic.

Just out of curiosity, do you plan to post the same thing to Cassini who holds open contempt for my statements or is that admonition only for those of us who are faithful Catholics who accept science?

I wasn’t being sarcastic. If you are not an SD, my statement doesn’t apply to you.

Peace

Tim

 

[Sparrows]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for your prompt replies and insights. I see from your profile that you are around my father’s age, so I speak to you with the respect that our age difference demands.

Regarding my admonition:

Let us all act in a Christlike manner in this debate

By “all”, I mean “all” - not just you, “TeachCCD” (who patronizd me on the first page of this forum), or “Cassini” (who was rude to you and falsely assumed that I am a young earthist).

I ordered Pope Benedict’s “In the Beginning” a couple of weeks ago and I expect it to arrive in the mail any day now. I hope that this book will clear up some of the questions that I have.

Once again, I’m only 21, which means that I am much more credulous and susceptible to being duped by propaganda than you are. I am also much weaker in the faith. Thanks again for your help.

 

[cassini]

Sparrows,

Thanks for clarifying your status as a ‘looking for the truth’ young Catholic man. Speaking as a ‘found the truth Catholic’ let me say that you have entered an area where Satan has laid more traps than you could imagine. You are only 21 so have been reared completely in a modernist Church. I was reared in a traditionalist Church and I tell you the transformation is akin to another Protestant reformation. If you think for one second you will find the truth in Ratzinger’s IN THE BEGINNING you are mistaken. You have no idea what is involved here. Up above I hinted at the origin of the ‘assault of science on Catholic faith.’ I speak of course of the introduction of an old pagan religion in its scientific disguise, heliocentricism. Now unless you understand this religion, where it came from, why it exists, whose religion it is and what are its aims, then you cannot put evolutionism into a proper category in regard to the Catholic faith.

All I can advise here Sparrows is that you must have a SIMPLE Catholic FAITH first and foremost. The Catholic faith was at its purest up to the Copernican revolution. Once this heresy infiltrated the Church -from mid nineteenth century - HEAVEN began to warn mankind they were losing the faith (La Salette etc). One thing led to another and now you can see above where belief in the simplicity of the Catholic faith has been drowned in a sewer of modernist theology, that is, the simple truths that held the faith of billions of Catholics together throughout the ages has been contaminated to a degree where many sincere Catholics on this thread are led to accuse one another of errors and what can or cannot be held by Catholics.

I can only pray your faith preserves you from this evolutionist farce that ‘intellectuals’ have drawn in on our simple Catholoic faith these last 100 years.
Now go read Pope Saint Pius X’s Pascendi.