Theistic evolutionism and Scripture

[Orogeny]

Tim, I’m merely parroting the ideas I have read on young earthist websites in order that someone more knowledgeable than I might offer criticisms. You have clearly done this and I thank you for the favour. Obviously, I cannot enlighten you because I am just a liberal arts major with very little background in science. Perhaps you still think I am an undercover Sungenis agent, which would explain the sarcasm.

Hi Sparrows. Not meaning to be sarcastic. That is one of the drawbacks of a written discussion rather than a verbal discussion.

A good place for you to go for the scientific side of this discussion is talk origins.
talkorigins.org/
That is also where the two articles about speciation are found. Lots of good stuff there.

Peace

Tim

 

[Sparrows]

Thanks Tim, I’ll explore that website later.

Yeah, it’s easy to misinterpret written text. I just want to make sure that this debate proceeds in goodwill and charity.

The Book of Genesis sure is a tough nut to crack. I need a break but I will be back tommorow night (I’m in the Eastern time zone).

Peace be with you all.

 

[theistgal]

I’m always amused by those who insist that God had no problem with Cain marrying his sister, and only outlawed incest later on when the mutations became a problem.

Incest is wrong; it’s a mortal sin; and it’s wrong for many other reasons than just the genetic issues. And if it’s wrong now, then it was wrong then. Or are we accusing God of moral relativism?

 

[cerad]

Sparrows:

Also, I cannot understand how those in Adam’s non-human ancestral lines simply disappeared. No theistic evolutionist has ever provided me with a good explanation for these things.

Well I’m not a TE but perhaps I can help you out here. The concept is pretty straight forward. Start with a list of everyone’s father. Notice that there were some men that were alive at the same time as those on the list but never had children or they had children but they all died. Now make a list of the father’s fathers. Again notice that not everyone alive during the time frame of the grand fathers had kids or if they did have kids then perhaps their kids do not have kids. Notice also that the list of grand fathers is a bit smaller than the list of fathers since population tends to decrease as you go further back in time,

Now continue making lists of everyone’s paternal ancestors. The number of ancestors gets smaller and smaller until eventually it reaches one. That would be the male ancestor of everyone living today. However, there would still be plenty of other people alive at the time it’s just that eventually their descendants died out.

Genetic science has actually yielded a rough estimate of when this ancestor lived. Approx 65 thousand years ago.

Hope this helps.

 

[Catholic_Johnny]

Do Cassini, CJ, and other young earthists have any answers?

Sparrows, this is evidence from geology, not theology. Click on “experiements in stratification”.

You know in your heart that Jesus is not in error, nor subject to the correction of 21st century scientists. Jesus believes in all the inspired record of the Sacred Scriptures and that includes Noah and world wide flood. The geological evidence for the WWF is staggering.

Me, I prefer to argue on theological, not geological grounds, but there are mountains of evidences out there in favor of a young earth, a WWF, and a recent civilization (no respectable archeologists would even dare to claim there are artifacts of any civilization dating back further than just 18,000 years - and that is on the long end).

There is also compelling evidence that ancient Soddom and Gomorrah were destroyed by burning sulfur from heaven.

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, 4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.
2 COR 10:3-6

3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 2 COR 11:3

 

[Orogeny]

Sparrows, this is evidence from geology, not theology. Click on “experiements in stratification”.

No, that is evidence of a desperate man trying his best to fool you into thinking that his results actually mean what he says they mean because his faith depends on it. Sad. Even honest YECs know this is bogus.

creationontheweb.com/content/view/1552

Berthault relies heavily on your not understanding basic (and I mean very basic) geology.

The geological evidence for the WWF is staggering.

Why don’t you just list the top 5 and we can discuss them.

Me, I prefer to argue on theological, not geological grounds, but there are mountains of evidences out there in favor of a young earth, a WWF, and a recent civilization (no respectable archeologists would even dare to claim there are artifacts of any civilization dating back further than just 18,000 years - and that is on the long end).

Again, post your top 5 and we can discuss them.

There is also compelling evidence that ancient Soddom and Gomorrah were destroyed by burning sulfur from heaven.

I don’t know if Soddom and Gomorrah were actual cities that were destroyed by God or not, but that website is a joke. I think that sites like that really do cause more harm to the literallist cause than anything that science could ever do.

Peace

Tim

 

[Sparrows]

You know in your heart that Jesus is not in error, nor subject to the correction of 21st century scientists. Jesus believes in all the inspired record of the Sacred Scriptures and that includes Noah and world wide flood.

I don’t know if Soddom and Gomorrah were actual cities that were destroyed by God or not, but that website is a joke.

CJ and Tim, your debate brings up an important question. Did Jesus and his apostles refer to the OT stories (eg, Adam, Deluge, Sodom and Gomorah) as historical / miraculous events? Or did they refer to them as legends meant to impart some theological / moral lesson?

The danger of adopting the legend approach is that it calls the credibility of Scripture into question. This approach may also be a slippery slope to dismissing many other OT stories as mere legends and not giving God due recognition for performing the miracles described.

If the early stories of Genesis are legends and not historical events, when does Biblical history begin and legend end? Is it with the story of Abraham? Are we to consider all of the pre-Abraham stories to be myths?

 

[buffalo]

No, that is evidence of a desperate man trying his best to fool you into thinking that his results actually mean what he says they mean because his faith depends on it. Sad. Even honest YECs know this is bogus.

creationontheweb.com/content/view/1552

Berthault relies heavily on your not understanding basic (and I mean very basic) geology.Why don’t you just list the top 5 and we can discuss them.Again, post your top 5 and we can discuss them.I don’t know if Soddom and Gomorrah were actual cities that were destroyed by God or not, but that website is a joke. I think that sites like that really do cause more harm to the literallist cause than anything that science could ever do.

Peace

Tim

Interesting piece on S&G. What do you think about this Tim?

 

[Orogeny]

Interesting piece on S&G. What do you think about this Tim?

Ron Wyatt had an imagination, I’ll give him that. Do you really see the things he claims in that video?

Peace

Tim

 

[buffalo]

Ron Wyatt had an imagination, I’ll give him that. Do you really see the things he claims in that video?

Peace

Tim

That is why I was calling on your expertise? Any particular points?

 

[Orogeny]

That is why I was calling on your expertise? Any particular points?

Pretty much all of it. The landforms are completely natural and the deposits are evaporites. The structures in formations that he claims are the result of thermal ionization are pretty common in evaporites.

Peace

Tim

 

[buffalo]

Pretty much all of it. The landforms are completely natural and the deposits are evaporites. The structures in formations that he claims are the result of thermal ionization are pretty common in evaporites.

Peace

Tim

So one should conclude that this area is not distinctive in the Middle East?

 

[Orogeny]

So one should conclude that this area is not distinctive in the Middle East?

It is typical of that area. The Middle East covers a lot of different terraine.

Peace

Tim

 

[buffalo]

It is typical of that area. The Middle East covers a lot of different terraine.

Peace

Tim

So we can see that in many separate places in the ME?

Why then did Wyatt think this one was special?

 

[Orogeny]

So we can see that in many separate places in the ME?

You can see that type of terraine in the US. It is not specific to that area.

Why then did Wyatt think this one was special?

Well, if you agree with his fellow fundamentalists, he had some, eh, issues, with veracity.

From Answers in Genesis:
“Could Ron Wyatt have found and solved problems that have baffled professional archaeologists for more than a century, or is there another explanation? Ron invariably has an ‘explanation’ of why he can’t direct others to see all this hard evidence for themselves at these sites’. His occasional seemingly convincing ‘documentation’ (including video-tape) repeatedly withers under independent scrutiny and/or conflicts with the on-site eyewitness testimony of several of his co-expeditionaries.”
answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i4/report.asp (about 1/4 from bottom of article in section titled “The People Involved”)

From Tentmaker.org:
“I can’t cover most of what I discovered in the several days of investigative calls all over this country. I’ll try to put all that in an audio tape complete with the details of how to get this information for yourself. I will tell you enough here to hopefully convince you WAR is a Christian con game. Ron Wyatt is either very psychologically ill or one of the greatest liars I have ever come across.”
tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-AGreatChristianScam.html

Peace

Tim

 

[buffalo]

You can see that type of terraine in the US. It is not specific to that area.Well, if you agree with his fellow fundamentalists, he had some, eh, issues, with veracity.

From Answers in Genesis:
“Could Ron Wyatt have found and solved problems that have baffled professional archaeologists for more than a century, or is there another explanation? Ron invariably has an ‘explanation’ of why he can’t direct others to see all this hard evidence for themselves at these sites’. His occasional seemingly convincing ‘documentation’ (including video-tape) repeatedly withers under independent scrutiny and/or conflicts with the on-site eyewitness testimony of several of his co-expeditionaries.”
answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i4/report.asp (about 1/4 from bottom of article in section titled “The People Involved”)

From Tentmaker.org:
“I can’t cover most of what I discovered in the several days of investigative calls all over this country. I’ll try to put all that in an audio tape complete with the details of how to get this information for yourself. I will tell you enough here to hopefully convince you WAR is a Christian con game. Ron Wyatt is either very psychologically ill or one of the greatest liars I have ever come across.”
tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-AGreatChristianScam.html

Peace

Tim

I really am not looking for a smear campaign on Wyatt. I have seen it all. Don’t try and read between the lines.

I am asking if what he had found is distinctive to that area of the ME? You replied we see some in the US. I am interested in the ME.

So, yes or no.

1. Are there other areas in the ME that look like this?
2. Is there a city or ruins there?

To your knowledge what accounts for these formations?

 

[Orogeny]

I really am not looking for a smear campaign on Wyatt. I have seen it all. Don’t try and read between the lines.

You asked “Why then did Wyatt think this one was special?” and I answered you. There is no reason to see what he claims to see there. I think his history of claims is relevent to the question you asked. Its not a smear if it is true.

I am asking if what he had found is distinctive to that area of the ME? You replied we see some in the US. I am interested in the ME.

So, yes or no.

No.

1. Are there other areas in the ME that look like this?

Yes.

1. Is there a city or ruins there?

Where? In the ME areas that look like this? Probably. People have lived in those areas for a long time.

To your knowledge what accounts for these formations?

Erosion.

Peace

Tim

 

[Orogeny]

Pretty much all of it. The landforms are completely natural and the deposits are evaporites. The structures in formations that he claims are the result of thermal ionization are pretty common in evaporites.

Peace

Tim

I need to correct this. The formation is made up of alternating aragonite (a carbonate) and detritus (aragonite, calcite, sand, clay) layers, not evaporites.

Peace

Tim

 

[buffalo]

You asked “Why then did Wyatt think this one was special?” and I answered you. There is no reason to see what he claims to see there. I think his history of claims is relevent to the question you asked. Its not a smear if it is true.No.Yes.Where? In the ME areas that look like this? Probably. People have lived in those areas for a long time. Erosion.

Peace

Tim

Thanks.

 

[Catholic_Johnny]

No, that is evidence of a desperate man trying his best to fool you into thinking that his results actually mean what he says they mean because his faith depends on it. Sad. Even honest YECs know this is bogus.

creationontheweb.com/content/view/1552

Berthault relies heavily on your not understanding basic (and I mean very basic) geology.Why don’t you just list the top 5 and we can discuss them.Again, post your top 5 and we can discuss them.I don’t know if Soddom and Gomorrah were actual cities that were destroyed by God or not, but that website is a joke. I think that sites like that really do cause more harm to the literallist cause than anything that science could ever do.

Peace

Tim

Tim, Why would I want to post anything further for discussion with you? You attack my sources and ignore the arguments. Similar to way the Jews dealt with Christ:

“Do we not say well that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
“This crowd is accursed and knows not the Law. Search the scriptures - no prophet comes from Galilee”
“This man is a winebibber and a glutton”
“Isn’t this the son of the carpenter?”

Anyone, anywhere, at anytime who posits that Jesus is lying, manipulating His hearers with myths, fables or stories, quotes unhistorical fictions as prophetic truths, and denies Jesus’ full credulity of every jot and tittle of the Septuagint (Old Testament Bible) is in danger of grave and irrecoverable error.

True story: I was with the 82nd Airborne Division in the invasion of Iraq. We captured Baghdad and were sent out to survey the battle damage in order to repair the city. My boss and I were sent to the Churches and Mosques. We struck up a rich friendship with the Chaldean Rite Catholics at Sts. Peter and Paul Church. In this photo, Fr. Warda Bashar and I are holding a 13th century manuscript of the Gospel of Matthew written in Aramaic. The Chaldean Rite Catholics actually celebrate Mass in the original tongue spoken by Jesus and have for 2,000 years. I had the privilege to worship with them many times - in Aramaic.

The idea that Tradition is unreliable or that Jesus didn’t use historical examples is the testimony of demons and fools. These Christians are still using the vernacular of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. They have unbelievable courage and fidelity to the faith. This is not what “professor so and so says…” or some worldy ‘expert’. I experienced this with my own eyes, ears, and hands. Not to mention heart!

Lastly, St. Peter warns solemnly:

We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming 9 of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father 10 when that unique declaration came to him from the majestic glory, “This is my Son, my beloved, with whom I am well pleased.” 18 We 11 ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 2 Peter 1