Theologian "Can't see the forest because of the trees."

[Robert_Heibel]

Church Militant:

Edited out unnecessary 2nd quote

(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.

I have already answered all your questions in my other threads and post. Now if you want more detailed answers feel free to e-mail me and I will give you a much longer explanation about my walk with Jesus.

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

You need to read the rest of John.

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God
…
…

Robert,

Are you saying that John contradicts himself? Or are you saying that only 1 John 3:3-9 is of significance. Surely, 1 John 2:1 has some significance or he would not have said it. The verse reads, “MY LITTLE children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” You cannot ignore this verse and claim that only 1 John 3:3-9 is to be proclaimed. This is an error.

Please give this some thought and render a well reasoned response so that your position can be better appreciated.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

Your answer confirms for me the very reason that Jesus told me to give a word. One of my jobs is to impress on everyone that in order to get close to God we need a personal relationship with Jesus. Yes that means asking Him for answers and having Him answer you personally.
Giver

I think everyone here would agree with you on that. When you have a personal relationship with Christ He gives answers on personal matters to those who ask. I don’t you’re suggesting that he gives personal, individual answers on universal matters though, are you?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

Yes even the Mormans would say that! The truth is, that is why He gave us His Holy Spirit.
Giver

Yep! They’re one of the 30,000.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Pax]

(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.

I have already answered all your questions in my other threads and post. Now if you want more detailed answers feel free to e-mail me and I will give you a much longer explanation about my walk with Jesus.

Robert,

While the story of your walk with Jesus may be a praise worthy testimonial about the work of God’s grace in your heart, it will not dispel the problems with what you preach. I agree that all Catholics need to have a personal relationship with Jesus. I also believe that all faithful Catholics do have a personal relationship with the Lord. I also agree that it is important to let non-Catholics know that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist celebrated in Catholic Churches. These two ideas have been in my mind years before you ever joined this forum. I, apparently share with you something that Jesus spoke to you. He apparently spoke this to me as well, but not with an audible voice heard through my physical ears. However, the Lord chooses to impart the truth to us is not as important as the truth itself. That is the truth which is in God and which God intends to give us.

Please consider some of the things you have said on this and other threads that are contrary to scripture which is God’s holy word. Your statements concerning the Church and bishops is the most obvious example that comes to mind. We are told in the holy scriptures that we have authority over us in the Church and that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth. We cannot ignore the truth given to us through the Church.

You claim that you have discovered many things that the Church is wrong about. Perhaps that is an area that we need to explore so that you can see that everything that the church teaches is in harmony with scripture. Perhaps, you should start a thread on the subject that disturbs you most, and we can talk about it so that you will know and understand the church’s teaching, and thereby know that it is indeed the truth.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Subrosa:

we all know that once the Holy Spirit has spoken, then you can’t be wrong.

I was once observing a conversation between two Christians, one who believed in OSAS the other who did not. I asked each if the possiblity existed that he was wrong to which each answered, “No, the holy Spirit would never mislead me so it’s not possible that I’m wrong.”. Each accused the other of “obviously” not rightly dividing the word because naturally, if he were, he’d agree with the opposing position.

There is overwhelming evidence that just because someone sincerely believes that Jesus has personally told him something is true that doesn’t necessarily mean that Jesus really did. Even if the person is absolutely and very sincerely convinced.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[adstrinity]

Lazerlike42:

How is it that I get Jesus to come and physically speak to me? If I ask and He doesn’t come, what does that mean?

It OBVIOUSLY means He is avoiding you…

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Catholic4aReasn:

I was once observing a conversation between two Christians, one who believed in OSAS the other who did not. I asked each if the possiblity existed that he was wrong to which each answered, “No, the holy Spirit would never mislead me so it’s not possible that I’m wrong.”. Each accused the other of “obviously” not rightly dividing the word because naturally, if he were, he’d agree with the opposing position.

There is overwhelming evidence that just because someone sincerely believes that Jesus has personally told him something is true that doesn’t necessarily mean that Jesus really did. Even if the person is absolutely and very sincerely convinced.

In Christ,
Nancy

Personally I will listen to anyone but I trust my relationship with Jesus, and it doesn’t matter what someone else says, because they alone are responsible for what they believe. I am going to be judged by how I live the Word of God. Jesus said the Word would be our judge, so my responsibility is to obey the Word of God. I am not telling people they should listen to me. My message is to tell everyone they need to listen to God, not man. Most people don’t really believe the Jesus will and does personally communicate (talk, teach, guide) with them.

The Holy Spirit told me to tell people “No matter who tells them anything about God, be it a priest or a Bishop or anyone, they were to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.” If every Christian who had a personal relationship with Jesus would do this then when someone gets up and tells them something about God and they ask Jesus tells them it wasn’t right, that person would soon be put on the right path or ignored.

So many people appear to be so concerned that the Holy Spirit will lead them astray. Just because someone says they were told something doesn’t mean they are to be believed. What is told to anyone needs to be tested by the Word of God.

 

[Pax]

Well Robert, I have taken your advice long before you ever thought of giving it. I have prayed and I continue to pray on everything and I ask the Lord to pour his grace and wisdom into my heart.

The Lord has assured me that the Church is his bride. The Lord has assured me that the Church is his body. The Lord has assured me that the Church’s teachings are his teachings. The Lord has assured me that, while there are some bad/weak bishops and clergy, his Church is still teaching the truth.

The Lord has assured me that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, and that I will never be in error if I remain faithful to the teachings of the Pope and the Magesterium.

How does all of that square with your understandings on these same points as presented to you in your times of prayer?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

Personally I will listen to anyone but I trust my relationship with Jesus, and it doesn’t matter what someone else says, because they alone are responsible for what they believe. I am going to be judged by how I live the Word of God. Jesus said the Word would be our judge, so my responsibility is to obey the Word of God. I am not telling people they should listen to me. My message is to tell everyone they need to listen to God, not man. Most people don’t really believe the Jesus will and does personally communicate (talk, teach, guide) with them.

The Holy Spirit told me to tell people “No matter who tells them anything about God, be it a priest or a Bishop or anyone, they were to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.” If every Christian who had a personal relationship with Jesus would do this then when someone gets up and tells them something about God and they ask Jesus tells them it wasn’t right, that person would soon be put on the right path or ignored.

So many people appear to be so concerned that the Holy Spirit will lead them astray. Just because someone says they were told something doesn’t mean they are to be believed. What is told to anyone needs to be tested by the Word of God.

I’m not sure you read my post carefully. What you are suggesting here is exactly what these to opposing Christians sincerely believe they have done.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Pax:

Well Robert, I have taken your advice long before you ever thought of giving it. I have prayed and I continue to pray on everything and I ask the Lord to pour his grace and wisdom into my heart.

The Lord has assured me that the Church is his bride. The Lord has assured me that the Church is his body. The Lord has assured me that the Church’s teachings are his teachings. The Lord has assured me that, while there are some bad/weak bishops and clergy, his Church is still teaching the truth.

The Lord has assured me that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, and that I will never be in error if I remain faithful to the teachings of the Pope and the Magesterium.

How does all of that square with your understandings on these same points as presented to you in your times of prayer?

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Robert Heibel:
What I think

What I think should not matter to you. You need to walk in what God is telling you. Remember however the Bible is the Word of God, and the Word tells us to love our enemies, that Christians are dead to sin, that we are not to call any man father.

Personally I will listen to anyone but I trust my relationship with Jesus, and it doesn’t matter what someone else says, because they alone are responsible for what they believe. I am going to be judged by how I live the Word of God. Jesus said the Word would be our judge, so my responsibility is to obey the Word of God. I am not telling people they should listen to me. My message is to tell everyone they need to listen to God, not man. Most people don’t really believe the Jesus will and does personally communicate (talk, teach, guide) with them.
Robert

 

[Robert_Heibel]

jjoshjl:

Robert -
I do not wish for you to think I am attacking you, so please do not read this as such.

While I understand where youare coming from, please also understand that I am mearly saying that with out being able to verify what you are saying against the accepted teachings of christ, and not what a person SAYS are the accepted teachings of christ is Arrogance. These are two differant things.

With out some level of guidence, even if not be the church, people have a very very strong tendency to be misled. Not saying they will, but that it is possible.

Pride does play a factor, I freely admit I am a victim of it myself when reading scripture. Thus is why I come here, ask priests, so on and so forth. I am also a member of several Noncatholic boards to get there view. I have tried not to make dicisions on arguemnts without fully understanding both sides of a debate. Everytime, I am lefd back to the churches teaching.

Please though, understand, I am not saying your are arrogant, full of pride, what ever, only that these are things that Must be taken into consideration. If they are not, then statements made by anyone with respect to scripture, you and me included, should be considered at best suspect…

If Jesus truely is visiting you on a daily basis as it sounds, then you are truely blessed mroe than any in history, even Moses, and I pray that you will use that gift wisely.

Prophosey and interpretation should never go counter to scripture, both old and new together. Saying That you do not need to test your own interpretation against scripture and others goes counter to that. Even the greatest of all profits where subject to this.

Peace be with you Robert.

That is right the Bible is the Word of God and anything that contradicts the Word can’t be from God.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

E.E.N.S.:

Robert, I think that you are a highly intelligent man, and it appears as though you love God very much, I just have a fear that you are not truly led by who you think you are, mainly due to the fact that you are in opposition to Christ’s Church (I know that you disagree that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, but I believe it is with all my heart and mind.)

Truth cannot contradict Himself.

May God bless you in your efforts toward faith, hope and charity.

You know it must be either Jesus or Satan who is leading us. If I am living the Word of God and have Jesus as my Lord and God, how then could Satan be any part of my life?

(Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is for us.”

 

[allhers]

If you really want a personal relationship with Him, go to Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and receive Him in Holy Communion. Now that’s a personal relationship. (Since you obviously aren’t Catholic Robert, just go to the Church and sit with HIM right there at the Tabernacle), He is waiting for you, and trust me, you will know it’s HIM.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Robert Heibel:

You know it must be either Jesus or Satan who is leading us. If I am living the Word of God and have Jesus as my Lord and God, how then could Satan be any part of my life?

(Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is for us.”

Forgers rarely forge anything less than gold or silver…(don’t be deceived.)

 

[Robert_Heibel]

allhers:

If you really want a personal relationship with Him, go to Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and receive Him in Holy Communion. Now that’s a personal relationship. (Since you obviously aren’t Catholic Robert, just go to the Church and sit with HIM right there at the Tabernacle), He is waiting for you, and trust me, you will know it’s HIM.

I am a man, who grew up a Catholic. Went to Catholic schools and from the age of twenty-five to forty went to Mass and Communion almost every day. At age thirty-eight Jesus started calling me to His ministry, using many signs and even miracles. I was married at the time He started calling me, and I already had two children. Being a minister, to me, meant being a Catholic priest. So I would say yes to God, but instead of asking Jesus what He wanted me to do, I would assume what He had for me to do. This went on for two years, and then my third child was born blind. We already had a child with Downs Syndrome. When the baby came down with an eye infection and our doctor wouldn’t see her until the first of the week, my wife just broke down in a very heart felt prayer, and asked God to heal her. She was healed, both the eye infection and her eyesight. Our baby is now twenty-eight and has twenty/fifteen vision, where the rest of us need glasses. Soon after this Jesus let me know that I was to give Him an answer, I said yes. But I wanted to know for sure, if it was really Jesus who was calling me. I asked to be given the gift of tongues that night. I spoke in tongues for the first time that night. Next I asked Jesus to let me know what seminary I was to attend? He told me “NO! Don’t read about me I’ll teach you about me.”
Robert

The Holy Spirit told me I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus and to non-Catholics about the Eucharist being truly the Body and Blood of Jesus.

 

[Knight4God]

Robert Heibel:

Most people don’t really believe the Jesus will and does personally communicate (talk, teach, guide) with them.
Robert

That’s because nowhere in the Bible does it say it “works” that way, actually scripture teaches the opposite, that God appointed teachers (Eze 44:23-24, Rom 12:7, Col 1:28, Col 3:16) to guide and educate and the church as the foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) with the scriptures which guide to all righteousness (1 Tim 3:16). And then by maturity people learn to discern right from wrong (Heb 5:12-14).

In fact the main problem is that scripture does not tell us to ask for knowledge from God, but Wisdom! (James 1:5) Your implying Knowledge ie, “what church should I attend?”, wisdom is “give me the ability to decide on the right church to attend”.

Because even if you perform miracles and can predict the future, if you teach something false, then it is still false. (Deut 18:22, Deut 13:1-3, Matt 7:15-23). Because even Satan can appear as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14). Jesus never promised that a individual person, with only the Bible and the Holy Spirit is sufficient without teachers and the body of Christ.

We are supposed to not hear voices, but to use scripture within the community of Christ to be educated by teachers and to mature in our faith to discern right from wrong and study (not see visions) to show ourselves approved (2 Tim 2:15).

That’s because nowhere in the Bible does it say it “works” that way, actually scripture teaches the opposite, that God appointed teachers (Eze 44:23-24, Rom 12:7, Col 1:28, Col 3:16) to guide and educate and the church as the foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) with the scriptures which guide to all righteousness (1 Tim 3:16). And then by maturity people learn to discern right from wrong (Heb 5:12-14).

In fact the main problem is that scripture does not tell us to ask for knowledge from God, but Wisdom! (James 1:5) Your implying Knowledge ie, “what church should I attend?”, wisdom is “give me the ability to decide on the right church to attend”.

Because even if you perform miracles and can predict the future, if you teach something false, then it is still false. (Deut 18:22, Deut 13:1-3, Matt 7:15-23). Because even Satan can appear as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14). Jesus never promised that a individual person, with only the Bible and the Holy Spirit is sufficient without teachers and the body of Christ.

We are supposed to not hear voices, but to use scripture within the community of Christ to be educated by teachers and to mature in our faith to discern right from wrong and study (not see visions) to show ourselves approved (2 Tim 2:15).

And on a side note: “personal relationship with Jesus” is not a biblical phrase, not that it’s wrong per say, but people need to start defining what they mean when they use that “code phrase”. It probably is a development from either German Pietism or the second great awakening in the US, I’m not sure as both influence evangelicalism and gave the movement some of it’s terminology and culture. Either way, someone is Christian if they are seeking to follow Christ and adhere to the Nicene Creed, and spirituality is consistently reading scripture, going to Church to worship and fellowship and prayer. So if that’s what you mean then fine, but anything else I think is going against revelation.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Knight4God:

That’s because nowhere in the Bible does it say it “works” that way, actually scripture teaches the opposite, that God appointed teachers (Eze 44:23-24, Rom 12:7, Col 1:28, Col 3:16) to guide and educate and the church as the foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) with the scriptures which guide to all righteousness (1 Tim 3:16). And then by maturity people learn to discern right from wrong (Heb 5:12-14).

In fact the main problem is that scripture does not tell us to ask for knowledge from God, but Wisdom! (James 1:5) Your implying Knowledge ie, “what church should I attend?”, wisdom is “give me the ability to decide on the right church to attend”.

Because even if you perform miracles and can predict the future, if you teach something false, then it is still false. (Deut 18:22, Deut 13:1-3, Matt 7:15-23). Because even Satan can appear as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14). Jesus never promised that a individual person, with only the Bible and the Holy Spirit is sufficient without teachers and the body of Christ.

We are supposed to not hear voices, but to use scripture within the community of Christ to be educated by teachers and to mature in our faith to discern right from wrong and study (not see visions) to show ourselves approved (2 Tim 2:15).

That’s because nowhere in the Bible does it say it “works” that way, actually scripture teaches the opposite, that God appointed teachers (Eze 44:23-24, Rom 12:7, Col 1:28, Col 3:16) to guide and educate and the church as the foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) with the scriptures which guide to all righteousness (1 Tim 3:16). And then by maturity people learn to discern right from wrong (Heb 5:12-14).

In fact the main problem is that scripture does not tell us to ask for knowledge from God, but Wisdom! (James 1:5) Your implying Knowledge ie, “what church should I attend?”, wisdom is “give me the ability to decide on the right church to attend”.

Because even if you perform miracles and can predict the future, if you teach something false, then it is still false. (Deut 18:22, Deut 13:1-3, Matt 7:15-23). Because even Satan can appear as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14). Jesus never promised that a individual person, with only the Bible and the Holy Spirit is sufficient without teachers and the body of Christ.

We are supposed to not hear voices, but to use scripture within the community of Christ to be educated by teachers and to mature in our faith to discern right from wrong and study (not see visions) to show ourselves approved (2 Tim 2:15).

And on a side note: “personal relationship with Jesus” is not a biblical phrase, not that it’s wrong per say, but people need to start defining what they mean when they use that “code phrase”. It probably is a development from either German Pietism or the second great awakening in the US, I’m not sure as both influence evangelicalism and gave the movement some of it’s terminology and culture. Either way, someone is Christian if they are seeking to follow Christ and adhere to the Nicene Creed, and spirituality is consistently reading scripture, going to Church to worship and fellowship and prayer. So if that’s what you mean then fine, but anything else I think is going against revelation.

Through the history of Christianity people have witnessed that Jesus has spoken to them. You say that Scripture doesn’t support a personal relationship, well I don’t think we need to fight about what to call a relationship where a person is being led by Jesus through the Holy Spirit. There is much Scripture that supports what I have been witnessing.

(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

(1 Corinthians 14:3-4) “On the other hand, the man who prophesies does talk to other people, to their improvement, their encouragement and their consolation. The one with the gift of tongues talks for his own benefit, but the man who prophesies does so for the benefit of the community.”

 

[heisenburg]

Just to through it out there…

the gift of tounges with respect to the bible is the ability to speak in a language you have never heard before with the intent to evangelize.

IE, you go to france, dont know french, you begin to spread the gospel, and magically you can speak french.

THAT is what it measn to speak tounges.

Speaking giborish is NOT speaking tongues.

Paul says two things are required for tongues…
You can speak a language you are unfamiliar with…
Someelse can understand it…

The purpose of tongues is to EVANGELIZE… not to speak tongues among believers…

The idea of speaking in giborish and it being from god is very much so NOT in the bible, and borderlines demonic if “miricles” occur form it…

If you are a modern day prophet, so be it, but becareful when saying that speaking in tongues as you describe is a gift of the spirit…