Theologian "Can't see the forest because of the trees."

[Robert_Heibel]

jjoshjl:

Just to through it out there…

the gift of tounges with respect to the bible is the ability to speak in a language you have never heard before with the intent to evangelize.

IE, you go to france, dont know french, you begin to spread the gospel, and magically you can speak french.

THAT is what it measn to speak tounges.

Speaking giborish is NOT speaking tongues.

Paul says two things are required for tongues…
You can speak a language you are unfamiliar with…
Someelse can understand it…

The purpose of tongues is to EVANGELIZE… not to speak tongues among believers…

The idea of speaking in giborish and it being from god is very much so NOT in the bible, and borderlines demonic if “miricles” occur form it…

If you are a modern day prophet, so be it, but becareful when saying that speaking in tongues as you describe is a gift of the spirit…

Look, I have read and listened to many different teachings about the gift of tongues, and all I know is what and how God uses the gift with me. The only way anyone is going to know for sure what teaching is right is to ask Jesus.

 

[Ignatius]

Robert Heibel:

The only way anyone is going to know for
sure what teaching is right is to ask Jesus.

Hi Bob,

There are 30 or 40 thousand denominations who all ask Him what the right teaching is and they all disagree.

You have not answered my questions:
How can we tell the actual Truth? It cannot be the case that dozens of diametrically opposed interpretations are correct.

There is only one Truth, who has it?

Or does no one have it?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

we are not to call any man father.

Actually, it says not to call anyone on earth YOUR father, which isn’t a title and quite a different thing. However, the surrounding verses say we aren’t to call anyone “teacher” (Latin=“Dr.”) or “master” (Mr. and Mrs.).

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Pax]

Robert,

The following is a copy of a post I made to you on another thread, but you never answered. I would appreciate it if you would try responding now.

There is a man named Neale Donald Walsch and he is the author of a series of books. The first in the series is entitled, Conversations with God : An Uncommon Dialogue. Mr. Walsch contends that he has conversations with God and that he is giving us the word of God. He does this by asking questions of God, and he believes, or at least claims, that God answers him. The book series by Mr. Walsch has been pretty successful. An individual at my place of work raved about Walsch and suggested that I read his books. I read a couple of them and did not come away with the enthusiasm of my co-worker.

Please note that Mr. Walsch is a former Catholic, as are you, and he makes the same sort of claims to propehcy that you do, and he says that his message comes directly from God. The messages given to Mr. Walsch differ a great deal from the messages that you have relayed to us except in a couple of important details. Mr. Walsch says that all anyone has to do is simply ask God and He will give the person the answer. You state that all a person has to do is ask Jesus and that He will give the person the answer. Since Jesus is God, I think it is fair to say that you are both in agreement on this point. Another thing that you and Mr. Walsch seemingly agree on is the insignificance of the Church.

Now comes the interesting and more difficult part. The answers that you and Mr. Walsch receive differ greatly on virtually everything else that you have shared with us. Who should we believe? I have tested Mr. Walsch’s “inspired” answers against scripture and find them totally unconvincing. In fact much of what he says is simply antithetical to Christianity. Now suppose that I am mistaken in how I see things. Suppose that I am mislead in my beliefs. Suppose that I honestly pray and that I dearly love the Lord, and that the Holy Spirit has, in my mind, given me a level of conviction that cannot be shaken. I have taken your advice and I have asked Jesus for an answer.

In all of this the Lord has told me that Mr. Walsch, who has a wide and enthusiastic readership, is completely off the deep end. The Lord has also provided me with a deeply held conviction that some of what you believe and have related to us is not true. You, however, are convinced and feel confident that you possess the truth that is from Jesus, himself. How do I know that you are right and telling the truth of the Lord, and that Mr. Walsch is wrong. If I am right about Mr. Walsch being completely off the path of truth because the Holy Spirit convicts me of this, then why would I be wrong about some of the things you are telling me when I have the same level of spiritual conviction and confidence?

If you go to a book store and peruse the writings of Mr. Walsch, I think that you will disagree with almost everything he says. The problem is that he claims that it comes directly from God. I asked the Lord whether or not what Mr. Walsch says is right or wrong. The answer was that virtually everything that Mr. Walsch says is wrong. I asked Jesus about the things you have said, and the answer was that a number of things that you have been saying are wrong, while some of what you say is right.

What now?

 

[Pax]

Robert,

You said that scripture says, "call no man father."
This is obviously a shot at the Catholic Church and represents an error on your part. Let me explain this to you from scripture.

Jesus said call no man father, but he did not do it in the absolute sense that you are presenting in taking a shot at the catholic practice of calling a priest “father.” We know this because:

1. Jesus, himself, also says “Your** father** Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.”[John 8:56]
2. “AND THE high priest said, ‘Is this so?’ And Stephen said: ‘Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,’”[Acts 7:1-2]
3. Paul says, “and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but also follow the example of the faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.”[Romans 4:12]
4. Paul also says, “That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants–not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all,”[Romans 4:16]
5. Paul even says this, "For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.[1 Cor 4:15]

Now I could go on at some length explaining what is meant by the statement Jesus makes about "calling no man father’, but I don’t think that is necessary in order to refute you point.Your anti-catholic statement is incorrect based upon the scriptures supplied. Jesus called Abraham father, Stephen called Abraham father, Paul called Abraham father and said that Abraham was the father of us all. The clincher of course is when Paul says that he became the “father” of the Corinthian Christians in Christ Jesus through the gospel. It is in these kinds of terms that priests are called father and there is nothing improper in this usage. There is also nothing wrong with refering to our natural male parent as “father.”

Please note that the corrections that you are receiving from Catholics on these boards are informed ones and that we receive these from the Church which is the body and bride of Christ. The Church and Scripture provide us with a sure and certain authority in matters of faith and morals.

 

[Knight4God]

Robert Heibel:

Through the history of Christianity people have witnessed that Jesus has spoken to them. You say that Scripture doesn’t support a personal relationship, well I don’t think we need to fight about what to call a relationship where a person is being led by Jesus through the Holy Spirit. There is much Scripture that supports what I have been witnessing.

Sometimes in history he might, but his prior revelation has given ways to tell if it is him or not. In other words, just because you hear a voice and it tells you it is Jesus and you “feel” it is Jesus does not mean in reality it is him. You can go based off your subjective feelings. We do need to define “relationship” because I would argue scripture does not set hearing Jesus literal voice as the norm for Christian life. If it happens, it is rare and non-consistent. So a “relationship with Jesus” must be more along the lines of fellowship with believers, worship, and study of the scriptures with prayer.

(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.

This passage is talking about salvation (verses 7-10) and the reality of false sheep that enter another way and the fact that Jesus’ sheep will not follow another (verses 1-6). This was a rebuke to the Pharisees in verses 9:40-41. So in context this has to do with the salvation on those in some way destined for salvation as opposed to those going to destruction. Not an active voice from heaven for every believer in history. And not that once you hear said voice you can “just know” it is Jesus.

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

1. This covenant is not complete, we are awaiting the resurrection
2. If we interpret it the way you are interpreting it, then this verse would directly contradict Romans 12:7 where God has given some the gift of being a teacher. And Colossians 1:28 where the Paul directly says the Apostles are teaching all people and directly contradict Jesus’ won words in Matthew 2819, were Jesus commands his Apostles to teach the nations everything he has commanded. If the nations are to have a “relationship with Jesus” such that he speaks to them directly, then The Apostles would not have needed to teach anyone, nor would that be a gift in the church. Nor would Hebrews 5:12-14 say that discernment is something that is learned over time, instead of given by a vision of Jesus asking him what is right or wrong.

(1 Corinthians 14:3-4) “On the other hand, the man who prophesies does talk to other people, to their improvement, their encouragement and their consolation. The one with the gift of tongues talks for his own benefit, but the man who prophesies does so for the benefit of the community.”

If your claming to have been given the gift of prophesy, then it’s a tall order (Deut 18:22, Deut 13:1-3, Matt 7:15-23). Not only must any predictions you say come true, but also you must have an impeccable life and never teach anything that is false. Which means I’m not supposed to believe you just because you said you talked to Jesus, but I’m to follow what Jesus already said and test you and the spirit that sent you (1 John 4:1 “don’t believe every spirit, but test them”).

 

[Pax]

Robert,

You have said, *"The Holy Spirit told me to tell people “No matter who tells them anything about God, be it a priest or a Bishop or anyone, they were to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.” *

Now scripture says the following concerning the church and its leadership.

–Jesus says that he will establish His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

–Jesus gives the keys of the kingdom to Peter and his successors along with the power to bind and loose. Later he gives a collective power to bind and to loose to the rest of the apostles.

–Jesus tells us that he was sent with all power and authority.
He then tells the apostles that just as the Father has sent him, he likewise sends them. They are sent with his power and authority.

–The apostles elect Matthias to fill the office/bishopric of Judas.

–Paul speaks about those aspiring to be a bishop as having a noble cause. A bishop is an overseer and has authority which Paul also talks about.

–Clearly, all of this authority continues and history proves that the line of bishops and Popes(i.e. Bishops of Rome) still have that authority and that Jesus promise is being fulfilled. The gates of hell shall not prevail against his church.

–Now with all of this in mind I am going to quote some important verses of scripture to you. These verses clearly deny what you are claiming about bishops and whether or not you are to ask Jesus if they are right or wrong. These verses apply to the church and the leadership that has been handed down through the apostles.

Luke 10:16
He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.

1 John 4:6
We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error

2 Cor 13:10
I write this while I am away from you, in order that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has given me

Titus 2:15
Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

3 John 1:9
I have written something to the church; but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority.

Heb 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account

None of this means that we listen to just anybody and everybody. It means that we listen, respect, and obey the Church. We are to accept the teachings of the Church through the Pope, Magesterium, and local bishops. Should a bishop teach something contrary to the official teachings of the church, he would be a heretic and we would not follow him. It is through the Church and the Scriptures that Jesus teaches us. Individual prophecy is only good if it does not contradict scripture, tradition, and the constant teaching of the church.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Even if you are right in your assumptions that we have to believe a bishop right or wrong, I also believe you are making another big assumption that the Scriptures are talking about Roman Catholic Bishops.

 

[dennisknapp]

Robert Heibel:

Even if you are right in your assumptions that we have to believe a bishop right or wrong, I also believe you are making another big assumption that the Scriptures are talking about Roman Catholic Bishops.

Believe the bishops right or wrong? No. As long as they are in line with the universal teaching of the Church we are to believe them.

They are the heirs of the Apostles in a direct line to the beginning of the Church. Who are you? Why should we take you at your word?

There is no way to substantiate your claims. They are subjective and known to you and you alone. Many of things you speak of stand against established Catholic teaching. Are we to believe one lone man or 2000 year of established verifiable teaching?

Peace

 

[Robert_Heibel]

dennisknapp:

Believe the bishops right or wrong? No. As long as they are in line with the universal teaching of the Church we are to believe them.

They are the heirs of the Apostles in a direct line to the beginning of the Church. Who are you? Why should we take you at your word?

There is no way to substantiate your claims. They are subjective and known to you and you alone. Many of things you speak of stand against established Catholic teaching. Are we to believe one lone man or 2000 year of established verifiable teaching?

Peace

You should not take my word. You should not take anyone’s word until after you asked Jesus if it is right or wrong. We know that Jesus won’t lead us astray.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

You should not take my word. You should not take anyone’s word until after you asked Jesus if it is right or wrong. We know that Jesus won’t lead us astray.

Hi Robert!

What happens when someone asks Jesus and Jesus tells that person that YOU are wrong? What then?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi Robert!

What happens when someone asks Jesus and Jesus tells that person that YOU are wrong? What then?

In Christ,
Nancy

Nancy, I am not trying to prove anything, many people have told me I am wrong. My job is to give a word and as long as I do what Jesus told me to do and I live His Word He will be happy with me.
Robert

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

Nancy, I am not trying to prove anything, many people have told me I am wrong. My job is to give a word and as long as I do what Jesus told me to do and I live His Word He will be happy with me.
Robert

I think you may have missed the point of my question.

How wonderful it must be to be one’s own Magesterium.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[fix]

Having considered the inspiration of the Bible, we may now take up the subject of its interpretation. No book interprets itself. The most carefully drawn legal paper is open to various constructions. Even the Constitution of the United States, a document most studiously prepared, has need of an official interpreter, the Supreme Court of the United States. That the Bible, though a divinely inspired book, does not interpret itself, is evident from the fact that it has had almost as many different interpretations as it has had readers. Nor can it be said that being a divinely inspired book, its prime Author, the Holy Ghost, will guide the reader to the right meaning. The Holy Ghost cannot guide readers to contradictory meanings, and we know that many passages of Scripture have been interpreted by various people in an absolutely contrary sense…

The Bible, therefore, is God’s communication to mankind through the inspired prophets of the Old Law, and through the Apostles and Evangelists of the New. God might have written His communication in the sky or on imperishable granite, but He has seen fit to speak to us by men like ourselves. We should not be surprised that He manifested His will to us by men, when we reflect that He manifested His love for us by man, giving His Only-Begotten Son to us, Jesus Christ, born of the Virgin Mary, who in all things except sin was like unto us. Having given His communication to us by the Bible He did not leave it to itself to perish or become distorted by the action of time and human caprice but committed it to the keeping of His divinely guided Church. In her hands it has been kept intact from the beginning, and has been accessible to all. The Church is above the Bible. The Church received her divine charter from Jesus Christ, the Son of God. She taught the truths of Scripture before the Bible was made, and will continue to teach them if the Bible should perish. Christ guaranteed perpetuity to His Church, not to a book. Christ constituted as His teacher, not a book, but His Church. The Church is Christ in the world. “He who hears you hears Me.”
THINGS CATHOLICS ARE
ASKED ABOUT

 

[Robert_Heibel]

fix:
(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ Who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

Jesus gave us His Holy Spirit and He will teach us.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Catholic4aReasn:

I think you may have missed the point of my question.

How wonderful it must be to be one’s own Magesterium.

In Christ,
Nancy

Magisterium: The authority to teach religious doctrine. Sorry, again, I am not a teacher. My job is just to give a word.
Robert

 

[fix]

(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd.

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ Who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

Jesus gave us His Holy Spirit and He will teach us.

Christ, in instituting His Church, clothed her with infallibility. She was to speak in His Name and with His authority to the end of time. “He who hears you hears Me.” “As the Father hath sent Me I also send you.” “I am with you all days, to the consummation of the world.” It was this Church of Christ’s that solemnly proclaimed the Scriptures of the Old Testament as God’s inspired word, and moreover specified just what books constituted Scripture. Scripture itself does not state what writings make Scripture. And so with the New Testament. It was the Church which decided which were inspired writings, and formed them into the New Testament. The Jews themselves were not united on what books constituted the Old Testament. And among the early Christians there was much controversy over the inspired writings. It was the Church, acting as God’s official representative, that solemnly proclaimed just what writings constituted the Bible. It is all very well to say that Scripture is inspired, but we must also know what is and what is not Scripture. It was the Church that made this decision and thus made the Bible. Now just as Scripture does not state what constitutes Scripture, so it does not state what is the interpretation of Scripture. The Church which made the Bible, likewise interprets the Bible. The Reformers began by making each reader his own interpreter, with the result that there were as many meanings of Scripture as there were readers.mafg.home.isp-direct.com/cques17.htm

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

Magisterium: The authority to teach religious doctrine. Sorry, again, I am not a teacher. My job is just to give a word.
Robert

Riiiiiiiiiiight!

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

Even if you are right in your assumptions that we have to believe a bishop right or wrong, I also believe you are making another big assumption that the Scriptures are talking about Roman Catholic Bishops.

I made no assumptions. I simply quoted scripture to you which is the inspired word of God. I have not made a big assumption that the scriptures are talking about Roman Catholic Bishops. This is simply an historical set of facts. Look for all of the Christian Churches that have bishops and then trace their lineage and authority. History tells the story quite clearly.

I can guarantee you one thing. Jesus would never have told you to leave his Church. I do not know what things you hold against the Church but the human failings within the Church are not a cause for leaving. The faith has been protected and handed down from generation to generation and the pillar and bulwark of the truth is still the Church. The Catholic Church and its continued existence for over two thousand difficult years of history are a marvelous miracle and work of Jesus Christ in our midst.

 

[dennisknapp]

Robert Heibel:

You should not take my word. You should not take anyone’s word until after you asked Jesus if it is right or wrong. We know that Jesus won’t lead us astray.

What Church do you attend?

Peace