Theologian "Can't see the forest because of the trees."

[Catholic4aReasn]

felra:

Sola Sciptura (“the bible alone”) is not biblical.

Unfortunately, our Protestant brothers and sister have re-defined the scriptural phrase “word of God” to mean “bible alone”. This is simply part of the Protestant tradition, nothing actually scriptural.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[MaryLiz410]

I loved the reply of Edward George. What a wonderful blessing he received; I am so happy for him.

 

[crusader4life]

Robert Heibel:

Theologian “Can’t see the forest because of the trees”

Reading some of the threads and posts and I see all these people discussing what this or that word in the Bible meant, or what some professor though about some phrase. I wonder if theology students are trying to get close to Jesus or are they trying to get A’s?

Don’t you wonder what would happen if everyone stopped asking professors about God and started asking Jesus instead.?

That’s a good point. We should do that for more than just the Bible as well.

Interpretation-wise I can be fully confident that the Catholic Church is in line because of the infallibility of the pope and his authority to keep us and the body of the Church in line! In a sense, too, the pope does ask Jesus what the right interpretation is, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, the pope is guided to teach and write about it and to stand up for it.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

crusader4life:

That’s a good point. We should do that for more than just the Bible as well.

Interpretation-wise I can be fully confident that the Catholic Church is in line because of the infallibility of the pope and his authority to keep us and the body of the Church in line! In a sense, too, the pope does ask Jesus what the right interpretation is, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, the pope is guided to teach and write about it and to stand up for it.

I have a question for you. What if the Holy Spirit brings to your attention a Scripture and explains this Scripture to you, and the pope (church) doesn’t agree with what the Holy Spirit has told you? Now from what you said you believe, you would believe the pope, right? Another question do you really believe that Peter had the right to change the Word of God? Do you think he would have allowed any teaching that wasn’t taught by Jesus?

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

(John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

The disciples were breaking the law, but they were with Jesus and David was breaking the law and he was with Jesus. So Jesus can and does release us from what ever. Think about it, if Jesus wants someone to give a word to the Church and that person is submitted to the Church, and the word isn’t accepted by the Church, all the Church has to say is you are wrong be quiet, and the person has to be quiet. How than can the person do what Jesus told him to do?

If you really want to know the answer to your question, then prayerfully study the lives of St. Francis of Assisi and St. Catherine of Siena.

Leaving the the Church of Jesus Christ is not the answer to anything. I am certain that Jesus never told you to do this.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Pax:

If you really want to know the answer to your question, then prayerfully study the lives of St. Francis of Assisi and St. Catherine of Siena.

Leaving the the Church of Jesus Christ is not the answer to anything. I am certain that Jesus never told you to do this.

Pax, I have read a about many saints, and I can appreciate how God uses people differently. I didn’t decide to do what I’m doing. Jesus told me what I was to do.
Robert

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

Pax, I have read a about many saints, and I can appreciate how God uses people differently. I didn’t decide to do what I’m doing. Jesus told me what I was to do.
Robert

Is it EVER possible for someone to sincerely believe that Jesus has told him to do something when, in fact, it wasn’t Jesus after all?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Catholic4aReasn:

Is it EVER possible for someone to sincerely believe that Jesus has told him to do something when, in fact, it wasn’t Jesus after all?

In Christ,
Nancy

Nancy, I know it is hard for you to believe my story, but look I know all things are possible, and I could be wrong.

Jesus is my Lord and God and my life for the last thirty years has been all directed to following Him and getting to know Him better. Everything He has taught me is Scriptural and He has worked very hard to make me a more loving person. Now I don’t know Satan very well but from what I do know about him, he sure wouldn’t have tried to teach me to know and live the Word of God. Jesus has proved to me that He is God and that I am to follow Him. Now everyone needs to learn that for him or herself.
Robert

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

Pax, I have read a about many saints, and I can appreciate how God uses people differently. I didn’t decide to do what I’m doing. Jesus told me what I was to do.
Robert

Are you really saying that Jesus told you to leave his church? When you die and are before the Lord for judgment you will know that Jesus never told you to do this. There is only one place that you can receive the precious body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist and that is through the consecration of the bread and wine at mass. To give that up defies all grace, scripture, common sense and love of God.

 

[Pax]

Robert,

If you really knew about St. Francis and St. Catherine of Siena you would have answered me differently. These two were great reformers. Everyone who evangelizes his Christian brother and sister is a reformer. This is a good thing. The problem is that some would be reformers miss the boat by leaving the Church. This is a grave matter. Neither St. Francis nor St. Catherine of Siena ever left the Church. They would never abandoned the truth and would never give up the Eucharist.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Pax:

Robert,

If you really knew about St. Francis and St. Catherine of Siena you would have answered me differently. These two were great reformers. Everyone who evangelizes his Christian brother and sister is a reformer. This is a good thing. The problem is that some would be reformers miss the boat by leaving the Church. This is a grave matter. Neither St. Francis nor St. Catherine of Siena ever left the Church. They would never abandoned the truth and would never give up the Eucharist.

Pax, I still receive the Eucharist. The Holy Spirit told me that the Eucharist was truly the Body and Blood of Jesus.
Robert.

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

I have a question for you. What if the Holy Spirit brings to your attention a Scripture and explains this Scripture to you, and the pope (church) doesn’t agree with what the Holy Spirit has told you? Now from what you said you believe, you would believe the pope, right? Another question do you really believe that Peter had the right to change the Word of God? Do you think he would have allowed any teaching that wasn’t taught by Jesus?

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

(John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects me and refuses my words has his judge already: the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”

You have already demonstrated that you believe certain things of scripture differently from the Church. You have claimed that it is all by the Holy Spirit. We have demonstrated to you that some of your interpretations are erroneous. The most recent example of this happens to be your statement based on scripture “call no man father.” This was a slap at the church which I refuted with scripture, but you never responded. An error is not from the Holy Spirit and that was clearly an error.

My guess is this. Either you misunderstand scripture, or you misunderstand Catholic teaching, or possibly both. Catholic teaching is not contrary to scripture. I have known many people that claim many things about scripture and they firmly believe that the Holy Spirit guided them to their conclusions. Oddly, they all differ in significant ways and they are frequently contradictory to one another. Somehow, it seems blasphemous to suggest that the Holy Spirit gives mixed messages that would divide us. Moreover, Jesus never made promises to guide individual believers against His Church which scripture calls the “pillar and bulwark of the truth.” He did, however, make a number of significant promises concerning the Church, and He said that not even “the gates of hell would prevail against it.” He also said “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.”[Matt 24:35] I base all of this on scripture alone and have previously cited numerous passages in scripture to support the point. Thus far this has not been refuted.

Are you claiming that Jesus’s promises have not been kept? Are you claiming that His Church has not prevailed? Are you claiming that his words and promises have passed away? Is your message, as you understand it and have given it to us, the equal of scripture? Is your understanding of scripture greater than Jerome, Augustine, Acquinas and all of the doctors of the Church. Is your understanding of scripture as you have presented it, greater than that of the Church Councils and Popes?

There is something wrong here, but you do not see it. I used to think that some of my ideas were right even though they were contrary to the church’s teaching. I was a bit of a cafeteria catholic especially on the issue of artificial contraception in my marriage. In all of this I actually believed that I was right with God. Finally, by the grace of God I was extricated from the pit of my own thinking. The Lord made it clear to me that I needed to fully submit myself to Him in His Church which is described as His “body” and also as His “bride.” Once I examined in full what the Church really taught on every conceivable issue of controversy, I became utterly humbled. The Church is a marvelous miracle and work of Christ in our midst, and Jesus has kept His promises.

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

Pax, I still receive the Eucharist. The Holy Spirit told me that the Eucharist was truly the Body and Blood of Jesus.
Robert.

How are you receiving the Eucharist if you attend a home church and not a catholic mass?

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Pax:

How are you receiving the Eucharist if you attend a home church and not a catholic mass?

Pax, Where in Scripture does it say that a person has to go to a Catholic Mass to receive Communion?
Robert

 

[felra]

Nancy, I know it is hard for you to believe my story, but look I know all things are possible, and I could be wrong

.
I know this is hard for you to believe, but unlike your honest admission “…and I could be wrong”, the [Catholic] Church was given the blessed assurance of never being in wrong in matters of faith and morals by the person of Jesus Christ Himself to our first Pope.

Jesus has proved to me that He is God and that I am to follow Him. Now everyone needs to learn that for him or herself.
Robert

But not in seclusion or in difference to what the Church authoritatively teaches in matters of faith and morals. To follow God in a path or matter of faith or morals different from what the Church teaches is strictly not scriptural.

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

Pax, Where in Scripture does it say that a person has to go to a Catholic Mass to receive Communion?
Robert

For this you need more than a simple declarative verse of scripture. I will explain it to you in the following way:

In scripture we are told to meet together on the Lord’s day. This is eluded to in Hebrews 10:23-25. We also get this from the ten commandments where we are told to keep holy the Sabbath which for Christians is Sunday. Beyond this, we read about Christ’s commission to the apostles to “Do this in memory of me.” He doesn’t say this to non-believers or all of his disciples. Instead he extends this to his apostles. The apostles, in turn, have the power to ordain additional bishops and presbyters(priests). Priests by definition offer sacrifice and always have throughout Jewish and Christian history. The greatest, most holy, and pure sacrifice is that of Jesus himself. This sacrifice is re-presented at mass. This re-presentation of the perfect and pure sacrifice is spoken of in prophecy. In Malachi 1:11 it says, “For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.” You might remember this as part of one of the Eucharistic prayers at mass. The mass is the fulfillment of Malachi 1:11 for the mass is offered every day, every hour of the day, from the rising to the setting of the sun. It is only in the mass that the consecration ocurrs.

Now Paul speaks of the Eucharist in 1 Cor 10:18-22 and he says this “Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? What do I imply then? That food** offered** to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. **You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. ** Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?” The entire context of this passage is one of sacrifice. Once again, priests offer sacrifice.

Now this is where history also comes into the picture. When you study the roots of the mass and look historically at the Eucharist it becomes clear that the consecration and the Eucharist were always offered through the ministerial priesthood and never by the non-ordained. There is a very good and sensible reason for this. If everyone were able to transubstantiate the bread and wine into the body and blood of the Lord there would be numerous abuses and untold forms of sacrilege. We would no longer have a reverent, holy, and faith filled presentation of the most sublime form of Christian worship. We would not have the mass, but things of our own making.

I would suggest a book for you. It is called The Lambs Supper and it is written by an evangelical convert to the Catholic Church. The author’s name is Scott Hahn. I think you will find this book quite informative and a beautiful exploration of the mass and scripture.

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

Pax, Where in Scripture does it say that a person has to go to a Catholic Mass to receive Communion?
Robert

I answered your question in the best summary fashion that I could. Now you need to ask yourself some questions. Where in scripture does it authorize everyone and anyone to invoke the Holy Spirit to change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ? Where in scripture does it suggest anything like this? Where is the historical basis for this? Where can we find this happening between now and the time of the apostles? When has the consecration been separated from the ordained ministry?

If you are doing this on your own and acting as your own minister, then you will not be able to point out when it was that you were called, ordained, and sent by Christ’s church. If you are doing something like this on your own you are not receiving the body and blood of Jesus, but you may be commiting a sacrilege.

The one thing that can be said for non-Catholics concerning their communion services. They are completely right when they say they are not receiving the true body and blood of Christ. Their communion is, by their own admission, nothing more than a symbol. As a result they neither offer the perfect and pure sacrifice nor do they receive the precious body and blood of our savior. If you are not receiving the Catholic Eucharist why would yours be any different from all other Protestant communions?

 

[Robert_Heibel]

felra:

I know this is hard for you to believe, but unlike your honest admission “…and I could be wrong”, the [Catholic] Church was given the blessed assurance of never being in wrong in matters of faith and morals by the person of Jesus Christ Himself to our first Pope.

But not in seclusion or in difference to what the Church authoritatively teaches in matters of faith and morals. To follow God in a path or matter of faith or morals different from what the Church teaches is strictly not scriptural.

I have addressed your statements a number of times in my past threads and post. I know what the Catholic Church teaches, but I personally have a hard time taking any one serious if what they teach doesn’t go along with the Word of God, as for example
:
(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

felra:

I have addressed your statements a number of times in my past threads and post. I know what the Catholic Church teaches, but I personally have a hard time taking any one serious if what they teach doesn’t go along with the Word of God, as for example
:
(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

Please show me in Catholic teaching where the Church says otherwise. Read the catechism and read the Church’s official documents. They all agree and support this Christian teaching.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Pax:

I answered your question in the best summary fashion that I could. Now you need to ask yourself some questions. Where in scripture does it authorize everyone and anyone to invoke the Holy Spirit to change the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ? Where in scripture does it suggest anything like this? Where is the historical basis for this? Where can we find this happening between now and the time of the apostles? When has the consecration been separated from the ordained ministry?

If you are doing this on your own and acting as your own minister, then you will not be able to point out when it was that you were called, ordained, and sent by Christ’s church. If you are doing something like this on your own you are not receiving the body and blood of Jesus, but you may be commiting a sacrilege.

The one thing that can be said for non-Catholics concerning their communion services. They are completely right when they say they are not receiving the true body and blood of Christ. Their communion is, by their own admission, nothing more than a symbol. As a result they neither offer the perfect and pure sacrifice nor do they receive the precious body and blood of our savior. If you are not receiving the Catholic Eucharist why would yours be any different from all other Protestant communions?

(Acts 2:46 “They went as a body to the Temple every day but met in their houses for the breaking of bread; they shared their food gladly and generously they praised God.”
Robert