Theologian "Can't see the forest because of the trees."

[Pax]

(Acts 2:46 “They went as a body to the Temple every day but met in their houses for the breaking of bread; they shared their food gladly and generously they praised God.”
Robert

This verse says nothing about how the Eucharist is celebrated or who would be the priest and celebrant. There is nothing in this verse that supports or denies either your contention or mine.

 

[bekalc]

Robert. Last night I was in a prayer group with some Protestant Christians fo the Pentecostal variety. My mom mentioned that she wanted prayers because of a medical problem she’s having that a doctor would guide her. She either wanted healing, or a doctor to help her, but she is going to the doc. One guy in there got all upset, God doesn’t use doctors. Why would God give his glory to another. I was very uncomfortable what was being said there but decided it wasn’t the time or place to speak up. This was a little house church movement thing, and it goes to show why these kind of things can be dangerous. I was there because some of the people are old family friends and I was kind of in the car with my mother. The AG which I grew up in of course believes in doctors. But a girl I grew up with, left it joined a cult and died in child birth because her new church didn’t believe in doctors.

Well, that night my mom said she had a dream and in the dream, God said “Your house is on fire. If I sent you a fire man would you reject him?” The point I’m making though is that the other guy who was this sincere Christian, was convinced “In his Spirit” that doctors/ science was a bad thing.

People can be off, no matter how much the love Jesus. No matter how much they have a personal relationship with Jesus. That’s why we need accountability and yes authority. Just because you hear a voice doesn’t mean its Jesus.

 

[sara888]

**Robert,

**1John 2:4": He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 324": And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1John 5:3"3": For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Matthew5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.****

Sara

 

[felra]

Robert Heibel:

felra:

I have addressed your statements a number of times in my past threads and post. I know what the Catholic Church teaches

, but I personally have a hard time taking any one serious if what they teach doesn’t go along with the Word of God, as for example
:
(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”
This is not a serious reply. Either you are seriously misinformed, have been seriously deluded, or have a personal animosity with the Church and are just mud slinging. As a useful starting point for more serious discussion, as Pax suggested, please offer a citation, some credible evidence of where the Catholic Church teaches contrary to the Word of God.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

Now I don’t know Satan very well but from what I do know about him, he sure wouldn’t have tried to teach me to know and live the Word of God.

I completely agree that Satan wouldn’t have tried to teach you to know and live the Word of God, but I do believe that he DOES try to convince people that they DO know the word of God when, in fact, they are mistaken. If you take a quick look around at the state of Christianity today you’ll see that happening all the time.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[bekalc]

What do you mean Satan wouldn’t try to teach you the Word of God? When Jesus was tempted in the desert, Satan used Scripture to try to get Jesus to sin.

Satan must certainly does not teach people the Word of God correctly, but he will misuse the word of God for his own purposes. This is why we are to divide the Word of God correctly.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

bekalc:

Robert. Last night I was in a prayer group with some Protestant Christians fo the Pentecostal variety. My mom mentioned that she wanted prayers because of a medical problem she’s having that a doctor would guide her. She either wanted healing, or a doctor to help her, but she is going to the doc. One guy in there got all upset, God doesn’t use doctors. Why would God give his glory to another. I was very uncomfortable what was being said there but decided it wasn’t the time or place to speak up. This was a little house church movement thing, and it goes to show why these kind of things can be dangerous. I was there because some of the people are old family friends and I was kind of in the car with my mother. The AG which I grew up in of course believes in doctors. But a girl I grew up with, left it joined a cult and died in child birth because her new church didn’t believe in doctors.

Well, that night my mom said she had a dream and in the dream, God said “Your house is on fire. If I sent you a fire man would you reject him?” The point I’m making though is that the other guy who was this sincere Christian, was convinced “In his Spirit” that doctors/ science was a bad thing.

People can be off, no matter how much the love Jesus. No matter how much they have a personal relationship with Jesus. That’s why we need accountability and yes authority. Just because you hear a voice doesn’t mean its Jesus.

Amen! I believe that is why the Holy Sprit has me tell people: “No matter who tells them anything about God, be it a priest or a Bishop or anyone, they are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.” If every Christian who has a personal relationship with Jesus would do this then when someone gets up and tells them something about God and they ask Jesus if it is right or wrong and He tells them it wasn’t right, that someone would soon be put on the right path or ignored.
Robert

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

Amen! I believe that is why the Holy Sprit has me tell people: “No matter who tells them anything about God, be it a priest or a Bishop or anyone, they are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.” If every Christian who has a personal relationship with Jesus would do this then when someone gets up and tells them something about God and they ask Jesus if it is right or wrong and He tells them it wasn’t right, that someone would soon be put on the right path or ignored.
Robert

But Robert, you said yourself that it’s possible for a person to do this and STILL be wrong. Click here. I agree with you.

This is why Christ gave us His Church. His Church is the voice that we are to listen to and not reject lest we be rejecting Christ Himself and the One Who sent Him (Luke 10:16).

On matters of universal truth Jesus does NOT tell each and every believers individually what is true and what isn’t, as is evidenced in the vast array of conflicting and contradictory “truths” held by Christians. If any interpretation of scripture contradicts what Christ has told His Church you can be certain that you are mistaken. It’s Christ’s CHURCH that is the upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15), NOT the individual believer.

Christ certainly speaks to individuals on individual matters, but it’s on matters of universal, absolute truth that speaks through His Body, the Church. The Church is the standard against which we must measure our own understanding. We can not use our own understanding as the measuring stick. That makes truth relative, which it certainly isn’t.

I know that you are absolutely convinced that what you are claiming is true. But I’m sure that you would agree that a Christian can be sincerely convinced of something yet be sincerely wrong.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Robert_Heibel]

felra:

Robert Heibel:

This is not a serious reply. Either you are seriously misinformed, have been seriously deluded, or have a personal animosity with the Church and are just mud slinging. As a useful starting point for more serious discussion, as Pax suggested, please offer a citation, some credible evidence of where the Catholic Church teaches contrary to the Word of God.

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

(Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is Mine I will pay them back, the Lord promises,’ but there is more: if your enemy is hungry, you should give him food, and if he is thirsty, let him drink. Thus you heap red-hot coals on his head. Resist evil and conquer it with good.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(Hebrews 6:4-8) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him. A field that has been well watered by frequent rain and gives the crops that are wanted by the owners who grew them, is given god’s blessing; but one that grows brambles and thistles is abandoned, and practically cursed. It will end by being burnt.”

You asked so here are few Scriptures that the church doesn’t want to live or believe.
Robert

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Catholic4aReasn:

But Robert, you said yourself that it’s possible for a person to do this and STILL be wrong. Click here. I agree with you.

This is why Christ gave us His Church. His Church is the voice that we are to listen to and not reject lest we be rejecting Christ Himself and the One Who sent Him (Luke 10:16).

On matters of universal truth Jesus does NOT tell each and every believers individually what is true and what isn’t, as is evidenced in the vast array of conflicting and contradictory “truths” held by Christians. If any interpretation of scripture contradicts what Christ has told His Church you can be certain that you are mistaken. It’s Christ’s CHURCH that is the upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15), NOT the individual believer.

Christ certainly speaks to individuals on individual matters, but it’s on matters of universal, absolute truth that speaks through His Body, the Church. The Church is the standard against which we must measure our own understanding. We can not use our own understanding as the measuring stick. That makes truth relative, which it certainly isn’t.

I know that you are absolutely convinced that what you are claiming is true. But I’m sure that you would agree that a Christian can be sincerely convinced of something yet be sincerely wrong.

In Christ,
Nancy

Nancy, That is why Jesus gave us His Holy Spirit.

 

[felra]

Originally Posted by felra
This is not a serious reply. Either you are seriously misinformed, have been seriously deluded, or have a personal animosity with the Church and are just mud slinging. As a useful starting point for more serious discussion, as Pax suggested, please offer a citation, some credible evidence of where the Catholic Church teaches contrary to the Word of God.

Robert Heibel:

felra:

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

(Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is Mine I will pay them back, the Lord promises,’ but there is more: if your enemy is hungry, you should give him food, and if he is thirsty, let him drink. Thus you heap red-hot coals on his head. Resist evil and conquer it with good.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(Hebrews 6:4-8) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him. A field that has been well watered by frequent rain and gives the crops that are wanted by the owners who grew them, is given god’s blessing; but one that grows brambles and thistles is abandoned, and practically cursed. It will end by being burnt.”

You asked so here are few Scriptures that the church doesn’t want to live or believe.

Robert
In all seriousness, you fail to make the case. Throwing out selected scriptures without exampling specifically and in what context that the Church “doesn’t want to live or believe” is neither credible or compelling and frankly can only undermine any legitimate grievances that you have against the Church. Your type of response presents an obstacle to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ having a serious dialogue over differences.

May God bless and enlighten you on your journey.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Robert Heibel:

felra:

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

(Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is Mine I will pay them back, the Lord promises,’ but there is more: if your enemy is hungry, you should give him food, and if he is thirsty, let him drink. Thus you heap red-hot coals on his head. Resist evil and conquer it with good.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(Hebrews 6:4-8) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him. A field that has been well watered by frequent rain and gives the crops that are wanted by the owners who grew them, is given god’s blessing; but one that grows brambles and thistles is abandoned, and practically cursed. It will end by being burnt.”

You asked so here are few Scriptures that the church doesn’t want to live or believe.
Robert

I know none that teach this more so than the Church herself.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

felra:

Robert Heibel:

In all seriousness, you fail to make the case. Throwing out selected scriptures without exampling specifically and in what context that the Church “doesn’t want to live or believe” is neither credible or compelling and frankly can only undermine any legitimate grievances that you have against the Church. Your type of response presents an obstacle to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ having a serious dialogue over differences.

May God bless and enlighten you on your journey.

If you would read my previous threads and post you can see I have made a case for all these Scriptures.
Robert

 

[felra]

Robert Heibel:

felra:

If you would read my previous threads and post you can see I have made a case for all these Scriptures.
Robert

Apparently you do not care enough to make the case of your false and impotent accusation other than refer me to “read my previous threads and post”. I all but suspect that I will only encounter the same circular argumentation without substantiation that you persist in regurgitating on this post. No thanks. I do not feel the calling of the Holy Spirit to invest my time researching your "case"against the Church. BTW – you certainly have not won any converts in this corner with your shallow arguments.

Before I check out of this thread, I repeat my prayer for you: May God bless and enlighten you on your journey.

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

felra:

If you would read my previous threads and post you can see I have made a case for all these Scriptures.
Robert

I have read every single post and thread that you have contributed to. Not even once have you made a legitimate, logical, substantiated case against the Catholic Church. When you have made an accusation it has been refuted, and you have never made an attempt to specifically and logically respond to the refutations. Your use of scripture has been misapplied and you have been corrected on that as well without any serious responses in those cases either.

 

[Pax]

Robert Heibel:

Amen! I believe that is why the Holy Sprit has me tell people: “No matter who tells them anything about God, be it a priest or a Bishop or anyone, they are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.” If every Christian who has a personal relationship with Jesus would do this then when someone gets up and tells them something about God and they ask Jesus if it is right or wrong and He tells them it wasn’t right, that someone would soon be put on the right path or ignored.
Robert

Robert,

We have made numerous attempts to put you on the right path but to no avail. At this point I still pray and have hope for you because you do love the Lord. Since that is the case I am not ready to ignore you.

 

[Pax]

Robert,

I am still waiting for a scriptural proof, a logical argument, and any conceivable historical data that you might be able to provide to prove your contention that you are actually receiving the body and blood of Jesus outside of the Eucharist that is consecrated in the Catholic Mass. This is extremely important.

 

[Robert_Heibel]

Pax:

Robert,

I am still waiting for a scriptural proof, a logical argument, and any conceivable historical data that you might be able to provide to prove your contention that you are actually receiving the body and blood of Jesus outside of the Eucharist that is consecrated in the Catholic Mass. This is extremely important.

Pax, Show me where is says< in Scripture, that Eucharist needs to be consecrated at a Mass by a priest? In fact that is why I pointed out (Acts 2:46) After worshiping God in the temple and then they went to their individual homes to have communion. They didn’t need any priest.

(Acts 2:46) “They went as a body to the Temple every day but met in their houses for the breaking of bread; they shared their food gladly and generously they praised God.”
Robert

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

Nancy, That is why Jesus gave us His Holy Spirit.

I think you’re mistaken about that Robert. The many, many conflicting and contradictory “truths” held by people who believe as just you do proves the idea to be false.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Robert Heibel:

felra:

If you would read my previous threads and post you can see I have made a case for all these Scriptures.
Robert

Your case seem to be nothing other than “Jesus is personally telling me what the bible means therefore my beliefs are the standard against which I measure all others and the Church doesn’t teach the bible as I understand the bible therefore the Church doesn’t teach what’s in the bible”.

Other than that I’ve seen no case and I’ve read every post. If there’s a case you’ve made that does not include you’re personal interpretation of scripture as the standard against which you are measuring Church teaching please present it again because I missed it.

In Christ,
Nancy