Theological Dilemma, Please Help!

[Jew_Man_73]

mercygate:

Jew_Man, the Lord must love you a LOT to have set you down in such a hotbed of trouble. You know that’s what he does to his pets, don’t you?

My roommate made a remark similar to that a few days ago. To paraphrase Mother Teresa, “I know G-d will never give me more than I can handle, but I just wish He didn’t trust me so much.”

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Brad:

Every time I saw them I would ask them if they had gone to confession or were they still living in and prmoting sin. I would also order USCCB documents on protecting marriage and put them in the Church. I would then work to get Eucharistic Adoration as often as possible at the parish. And I would talk to the pastor about their abominable behavior, then the Bishop if it produced no results. As far as them making advances, I’d tell them to cool it or else.

Thanks. This parish does have Eucharistic Adoration once a month, but the Host is frequently left unattended. But that’s another matter, I suppose.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

javelin:

A couple things.

First of all, I do not pretend to be any authority on this kind of stuff, but I have some thoughts that maybe God has planted to help you.

I do not think you need to leave the parish. Most parishes have problems – some moreso than others – but if you truly have some friends who you feel can be part of the community with you, then don’t let others drive you out. It is your decision, but don’t throw away good relationships because you’re trying to uphold a principle that you don’t have to. None of what is happening there is your responsibility, and it is not your responsibility to fix it.

The responsibility lies with the pastor, and if he is not upholding his responsibility, the bishop. So I completely agree with previous posters who said you should bring it up to the pastor. As for those saying you should not because you are a catecumen, I disagree. Yes, it might be better if you were a regular member of the parish, but you aren’t. If you don’t bring it to the pastor, and don’t know anyone else in the parish well enough for them to do it with you, you don’t have any other choice besides trying to ignore it, which seems sadly impossible.

Do you have an RCIA sponsor? What does s/he think?

My only advice in approaching the pastor is to do it with questions instead of accusations. Ask him if he would mind meeting with you personally regarding your formation, to help answer some questions. Then phrase every concern as a genuine question, such as:

“Do all baptised people go to Heaven or Purgatory, or is it possible for someone to go to hell? I’m confused because in RCIA, said that no one is going to hell, and that doesn’t seem right to me.”

“I’ve been having a really hard time in choir lately. (gay man 1’s name) and (gay man 2’s name) talk about sex, make explicit sexual jokes, and even have made subtle advances to me. It makes me extremely uncomfortable that people are behaving that way in the House of God. (The choir director) basically ridiculed me when I told her how uncomfortable it made me. I love praising God in song, but the situation there is becoming unbearable. Must I quit, or can something be done?”

“It seems very strange to me that people who are openly living a sinful lifestyle prominently serve in the church and receive communion. What does the Church teach about this? I want to understand so I can act appropriately when I am received into the Church at Easter.”

Questions like this make it clear that you are entrusting yourself to the pastor’s leadership, instead of coming across as questioning that leadership.

Obviously, you need to make the words your own, but coming to the pastor with humility, seeking answers, would befit your status as a catechumen. Listen to his answers carefully and if his response(s) are unsatisfactory you can then contact the bishop’s office for clarification.

I wouldn’t press the issue of whether he should be denying the gay men communion. That is a widely disputed issue, and it is probably not your place. After all, they are only receiving damnation upon themselves, and the state of their souls are not for you or me to judge. The notion of when sin is blatant enough to be scandalous and require denial of the Eucharist is a vast gray area right now, best defined by your bishop. This is one thing I think you could ask the bishop about directly, even before talking to your pastor, as long as you are 100% sure the pastor knows about the men’s sexual involvement with one another.

On the bright side, you are obviously learning much through this difficult process. I pray that the scandal you see does not dim your joy at coming into Christ’s Church!

Whew! Sorry this got soooo long. May God’s Grace be with you.

Peace,
javelin

Thanks for your thoughtful post, javelin. This requires much prayer.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Kyenta:

Jew_Man, I am so sorry you are going through such sadness and pain with the goings on at your Parish. Even though you are still in RCIA, this is Your Parish. :yup: You have made friends who are great Catholics.

The advice given here is excellent. I like the idea of getting a few together and sitting calmly with the Pastor about the abuses going on in Christs Church. The Pastor is certainly aware but maybe it’s hearing your words that can make the difference.

I also believe that for some reason, Our Lord is choosing you to help clean His Church. He is pained by what is going on and although it will be difficult, He is handing His Cross over to you. Be strong and offer your sufferings up for His intentions.

Pray, Pray, Pray! Drop out of the choir if you must. Don’t get into uncharitable conversations with those who are sinning. God is aware and will deal with them at the proper time. Maybe you can find different Mass times. Keep your mind always on the Euchrist.

I will keep you in my prayers Jew_Man. I will also pray for the conversion of all sinners especially those found in our Universal Church.
Blessings,
Kyenta

Thank you. I know that G-d is present at this parish, because I’ve felt Him many times. I’ve encountered the Virgin Miriam at this parish, as well. It disgusts me that this is going on in the very place where G-d dwells, and where the Virgin visits.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Penitent:

Then go to the other one. Document everything you’ve got and without being condemning or emotional, write that letter to the bishop.

Penitent

Thanks. I’ve already been thinking about what I would put in a letter, if it comes to that.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

There are several different issues here some Catechetical and others Pastoral. The Bishop of the diocese is the person responsible for the RCIA process in his diocese. I would address you catechetical questions to him. Get on of your new friends that seem orthodox to be your sponsor. I would also get a copy of the Catechism of The Catholic Church. Look up those things that conflict with what is being taught. Then write short notes basically saying that you taught this in RCIA the Catechism says this! Send it to the RCIA director and copy the pastor.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Diocese of Raleigh
Most Reverend F. Joseph Gossman
715 Nazareth Street
Raleigh, NC 27606
dioceseofraleigh.org/home/

You are in my prayers.

Thank you for the information, and for the prayers.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Lillith:

You spoke about meeting good devout friends there…they would I’m sure be interested…

Please post this on the ask an apologist…Or call them…someone can help…this is just disgusting and it makes me so sad. It is slander, and illegal, not to mention sinful, to spread lies like the ones they are telling…I would be so angry.

I have never heard of such a thing!!!

Yes, it is slander. My roommate is ready ot file a lawsuit if it continues.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Kenandbarbie:

Evil is everywhere. I will pray for you.

I don’t believe you should leave the parish. I believe you should hold strong and recieve your sacraments at this parish. The sacraments are real…even though your are amongst individuals you aren’t really Catholic.

After you take your sacraments…make an effort to get the word out that this parish is in great turmoil. …and don’t give up.

God Bless You.

Thank you. G-d bless you too.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

dioceseofraleigh.org/where/parishes/I

I am posting a link to the parishes in the Diocese of Raleigh. Much to my surprise I found that this is the same diocese in which my son lives. He is a Marine at Cherry Point and attends mass on base.

Do find another parish

Thank you for the link. The Diocese of Raleigh is huge. It’s actually subdivided into several deaneries, and the priest of this parish is the head of the deanery here. There are only a handfull of churches in this deanery, and only two in this area.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

LSK:

I think you should write to your Bishop also…and I am so sorry your Parish has gone kind of , well, goofy:whacky: . What helps me is to read the Catechism and then ask questions from that source. For instance, the Church does teach that salvation for those who are ignorant of Jesus is possible, and leaves that up to God to determine. The question (for us creatures) is what constitutes ignorance and is it willful.
As for the gay couple, I also think you are being bullied into accepting something that is against Church teachings. Stand fast, my brother. We will all keep you in our prayers. I will also pray for the gay men who do not want to be obedient sons of the Holy Mother Church. That appears to me to be an example of willful rejection of the teachings of Christ and the Church, but again I leave the judgement of their souls to Christ.

I’ve been getting the same impression, that they’re trying to bully me into accepting their deviant lifestyle. I don’t mean to sound combative, but they don’t know who they’re up against. I’m not some spineless, brainless wimp. I have nothing against these men personally, (After all, G-d created them) but I will never accept their relationship.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

mercygate:

I would ask already-received communicants to fight this battle. Definitely do not take up this issue on your own; do it as a team. Bishops don’t like bad news, and they especially don’t like bad news from one person acting on his own. But 6 people . . . they might have a chance. Technically, you’re not even in the building yet. And if possible, I WOULD find another parish.

This sort of thing is widespread. Priests are squeamish and get the weird idea that if they ask guys like this to do the right thing, the guys will leave the Church – as if they haven’t already left! All that remains is the bodies. If they are publicly espousing the gay marriage cause, publicly affirming their non-continent lifestyle, then they are a public scandal, and the PASTOR really should look into it and correct the situation. Your gang of six should approach the pastor before going to the bishop. Maybe even give him a bit of a deadline: We think this is an open scandal, demoralizing to the faithful, a misplaced sense of false charity which refuses to correct the sinner . . . We hope this will be corrected by Labor Day.

The guys should NOT serve as readers. People serving in the Sanctuary are required to be Catholics in good standing – baptized, confirmed, marriages in order, no unmarried cohabiting individuals . . . These ministers must affirm the magisterium of the Church. Bring that to the pastor’s attention . . .

That’s my dilemma. Should I go alone, Go with someone, Let someone go instead of me, or just leave?

As for these men leaving the parish, I think that would be a blessing. I would rather see them leave than stay and do more damage. If they’re not going to repent, let them leave.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Hi JM,

I’ve been wondering how things have been going for you. I’m so sorry that you’ve encountered such difficulties in your parish. God never promised us it would be easy and we know that the weeds grow alongside the wheat, to be sorted in the end.

Sounds like you have the challenge of hanging around some weeds! Be salt to the world, hold firm to the truth you know in your heart and do not let the evil one win through these distractions.

I’m not fond of the idea of jumping ship whenever things get bad, for that merely leaves a parish devoid of it’s faithful parishoners. I’m of the old school mentality that suggests we attend the parish that covers where we live. If we’re lucky, it’s marvelously faithful and we have the bliss of attending unadulterated Mass with a community of other Faithful Catholics. However, when we find ourselves with a challenging priest, or off target teachings within the community, we allow satan to win if we immediately turn and run.

So, what would I suggest you do? You haven’t mentioned whether you have spoken to the priest about what you’ve encountered, especially with regards to the male couple. You can ask him for clarification of the teachings of the church regarding homosexuality, it be a grave disorder and the importance of approaching the Eucharist in the state of grace. See if he defends them on grounds that he knows their state of grace through his role as Priest and Pastor (who knows, perhaps they confess every Saturday, attend Mass and then go right back to their evil ways, not that I suspect this to be the case, but we are not to be their judge).

If on the other hand, he defends their way of life, be a light. With the greatest charity possible, and charity here will be the absolute necessary key, state that you have learned quite clearly that the Church as definitive teachings on the importance of Chastity and protecting the temple of the Holy Spirit. That it is a grave scandal allow this couple to occupy such a visible position in the Parish while they flaunt their sinful lifestyle, with not only no apparent repentance, but with an air of lust and debauchary that the bring to Church with them.

It is first the Pastor’s responsibility to teach the ways of the Church to his parishoners. If he is unwilling or unable to do so, then you approach the Bishop, with as much specific information as possible, detailing specific occurances. This should be presented with a very brief cover letter outlining the reasons for your concerns and how you believe it impacts the Parish community.

As for what the DRE has been teaching you … well, some of what she’s teaching is close to correct, and some is absolutely wrong. There is a Hell, we have that directly from Christ. We know that the road to Hell is well traveled, so her ideas that nearly everyone is going to Heaven are a bit optimistic and can mislead souls. Yes, those who are not Catholic can be saved, even if they don’t know Christ by name. But this requires that they seriously intend to serve God as they know him. That they listen to their conscience and do good, as opposed to evil.

As Catholics, we have been given much by way of the graces of the sacraments, and so of us, much is expected. Our seperated Christian bretheren, absent from the graces of the sacraments, do not have the requirements. However, if and when they come to know that the Church is the one Church established by Christ, to not enter it, and follow her precepts becomes a grave sin.

The same is true of our non-Christian brothers and sisters in the world. God will lead them to a path for their salvation if they seek it with sincerity. We trust that God makes this available to all men, each in his own way.

God Bless you and good luck with your trials,

CARose

Hi CARose!

I don’t know where the RCIA director is getting her information. Most of what I’ve learned about official Church doctrine so far I’ve learned on my own, from reading and from the forums here. The Catholic bookstore here (about an hour away) has come in very handy! I was talking to the owner of the bookstore a few days ago, and he basically told me that she was totally wrong about Hell and salvation. We ended up talking about that for a while. It was so nice to be talking to an orthodox Catholic, face to face.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

BibleReader:

It is such a pity that someone who has made the painful mutation from “Old Testament Jew” to “New Testament Jew” – Roman Catholic Christian – has to witness such un-Biblical Catholic hypocrisy.

Your analysis is correct. It is improper for the pastor to permit the partners in an “open and notorious” sexually active relationship not between a man and woman married to each other, to (a) receive Comminion; or (b) participate as lector at Mass.

In part, your pastor is there precisely to bar such things in his Church.

Functionally, he, too, is in rebellion against the Church’s authority.

Print this response and show it to your pastor. Whereas the feeling of affection one homosexual feels for another is probably “pre-wired,” the decision of the homosexual to express that affection by perverted sex acts is NOT pre-wired. Your pastor, by administering Communion to sexually active homosexuals, is reinforcing sinful perverted acts with God’s holiest sacrament! Your pastor is himself guilty of sacrilege, as far as I can see!

I like my priest, but the more I get to know about him, the more I question whether or not he’s not being faithful to what the Church teaches.

This entire process has been extremely painful. To leave Judaism and end up in this! I didn’t know that this parish was like this at first. If I had, I would have run.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

promethius:

While telling this chap to run off to another parish, which may or may not be an appropriate decision, we’ve forgotten to advise him about his original questions.

While it is acceptable for the people to attend the gay men’s chorus SO LONG AS IT DOES NOT PROMOTE AN ACTIVE GAY LIFESTYLE, it is unnacceptable for a gay couple to use a catholic church as a forum to promote sinful practices. This situation is entirely innappropriate.

Your choir director is correct. Singing in the choir is not contingent on being in a state of grace.

COMPLETELY UNNACCEPTABLE. those who live in a fornicating relationship of any kind, much less of the active homosexual lifestyle, are prohibited from communion until they are once again in a state of grace. to take communion while in a state of mortal sin is to commit the sin of sacrilage and worsen a persons plight.

not acceptable. lectors are a minister and hence need to be in a state of grace. Again, the catholic church is not a venue for any material which promotes active gay lifestyle and you should not have to put up with harassment in your own church.

then your choir director is not catholic. i would quite and let her know that while you love the catholic church you cannot follow her teachings which stand against it.

it shows precisely that this parish is in a dire state, and that it is NOT loving. If this parish were loving it would not be helping these men to commit sacrilage by tainting the sacrament of communion with a sinful offering. instead, if the right course were preserved, it would help these men’s souls. this view isnt the right and loving view, its the easy cop out. and the fact that your choir director is now talking about you behind your back shows that she is not a trustworthy and loving minister of the church. again, in your position i would quite the choir and let her know all these reasons.

all heresies against the teachings of the church. this especially needs to be brought to the attention of the bishop, as the false teachings by a rogue RCIA instructor will irrevocably damage the catholic lives of MANY new converts to the church.

I agree. This parish is not showing these men love by silently allowing them to continue in thier sin and condemn themselves to Hell. (But, then again, the RCIA director doesn’t believe in Hell!) To show them love, real love, would be to point out their wrongdoing to them and lead them to repentence, so that they can be in Heaven for eternity. Loving someone into Hell is absurd.

By the way, the gay men’s chorus is a secular chorus. It certainly doesn’t advocate celibacy for gay men.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

gardenswithkids:

I agree. You should speak to the pastor first. He may lack the courage to address the issue and remove them from the choir and lector schedule because he doesn’t know how much scandal they create. He may be aware of their lifestyle without realizing they are flaunting it and telling vulgar jokes etc. (Hmm, couldn’t that last part fall into “sexual harrassment” territory? Volunteers of the parish should not do such things regardless of their sexual orientation.) The pastor may not realize the RCIA director is not teaching in accordance to the Church, especially if it’s only on one or two points that she misinforms the class.

If your pastor doesn’t do anything, or if he defends what they are doing,* then* contact the bishop. You should go through the proper channels, and that means have the courtesy to give your pastor a chance to remedy the scandal before you go over his head to the bishop.

Lastly, pray that your priest and bishop have courage to preach the truth in love to all in your parish. Pray hard.

Yes, I agree. This does constitute sexual harassment. My roommate is ready to file charges. He also is ready to file charges for slander. That would be ugly.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Lillith:

I understand what you are saying here…but personally I think it would be very akward for a catechumen to confront a priest about the goings on in a church, and I don’t think the priest will take it well.

He is supposed to be learning, not teaching…this is sad all around

That’s exactly how I feel, that I’ve been forced into the role of teacher, and I just came to faith in the Messiah about three months ago! Very sad!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

mercygate:

Bingo. When he’s up and running he can take the lead. For now, others should handle it – partly using him as an excuse: Do we want our catechumens to be confronted with things like this?

That’s how I’ve been feeling. I’m just a catechumen! I’m not supposed to be dealing with something like this! Something is very wrong in this parish! My roommate knows three people who have left this parish because of its liberalness.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Awkward or not, it is the responsibility of each of us to let the light shine when necessary. As a catechuman, it is JM’s responsibility to approach the Pastor with utmost charity and humility. But he absolutely must approach him if he believes that scandal is occuring in the parish due to the assignments for which the pastor is responsible.

I agree with promethius that the Choir member need not be excluded from the choir simply because he is homosexual. However, with what appears to be an agenda, it may not be appropriate for him to be in such an honored position in the parish. Either way is up to the pastor.

I would not, however, quit simply because the choir director is confused on the teachings of the church. You have already provided her with information on her faith.

I agree with Mercy, that Christ has much in store for you!

Good luck and God Bless,

CARose

Thank you for your encouragement. I’m curious though: Is this normally what happens when Yeshua has something great in store for someone? You know, trials like this?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

DianJo:

At first, my reaction was - RUN LIKE HELL!!!
But then my rationale kicked in…killjoy!

I certainly understand your point here but I don’t think you have to be Catholic to recognize unsound bible teaching. As someone else said, he can go to the pastor in a humble manner and being very charitable, explain the abuses he outlined for us. I would think that a good pastor would want to make sure that his catechumens are being taught correctly and are obeying the teachings of the church.

I would not let the fact that you are not “offically” Catholic yet stop you from letting the pastor know your concerns and what you’ve personally witnessed and experienced - he needs to know that. His answer and attitiude depends on whether you go to the Bishop or not.

For future reference, if these abuses are not corrected then I would leave the parish (as a last resort). Try to correct them for yourself and the other parishioners so that error will not continue to be taught in your parish.

I am so sorry you are having to go through this - but maybe it’s for a reason? Maybe you are to be the catalyst!

My roommate said the same thing, that maybe G-d wants to use us as catalysts to clean house. I don’t understand why He’d use us though! We’re so new at this!