Theological Dilemma, Please Help!

[BibleReader]

Jew_Man_73:

Hi everyone,

Over the past two months, I have become aware of some things that are going on in my parish. Just to let everyone know where I come from, I’m a recent convert from Reform Judaism. I’m currently in RCIA.

My main concern is the fact that we have a gay couple in our parish. This couple is sexually active, and very open about themselves. Furthermore, they are gay rights activists. They are very active in the “gay marriage” movement. This couple belongs to a gay men’s chorus (no affiliation with the church) and they had a performance a few weeks ago. Several members of the church choir went. I was asked if I wanted to buy a ticket, but I declined.

The choir director is fully aware of them, but allowed them on the choir anyway. She has made it clear that she disapproves of their relationship, but feels that she would be unloving if she didn’t allow them on the choir. The priest and RCIA director are also aware of them, as is the nun. This couple is allowed to receive Communion every Sunday, which I have been told by some devout acquaintances of mine is against the teachings of the Church.

In addition, one of these men is a lector, and appears before the congregation on a regular basis in this capacity. These two men constantly joke around in a vulgar, sexual manner, making all kinds of gay sex jokes. They do this all the time in front of the choir members, and have done it to me as well. Several times now they have made crude sexual jokes to me. One of them also has made it a bit obvious that he finds me attractive.

I have spoken to my choir director about this, and she became angry at me. She admitted that she knows what the Church teaches, but disagrees with it. She said that the fact that these men are not denied Communion shows that this parish is a loving parish, and not “traditional, hard-nosed, and cold-hearted.” Furthermore, it has come to my attention that she has been talking about me behind my back, in relation to this issue.

I have been told that this is a “Judas parish”, and that I should leave it. What is a “Judas parish?” I would also like to let everyone know that in spite of these experiences, I have met many devout, orthodox, loving Catholics at this parish, and have befriended them. I have to admit I feel torn. On one hand, I’m sick of this and want to leave. On the other, I don’t want to leave the good, devout friends I’ve met there.

There are also other issues that I’ve discovered at this parish. I have learned from a couple of devout acqaintances that my RCIA director ahs been teaching me things that contradict official Church doctrine. For example, she has taught me that everyone is saved, regardless of what their religion is (Buddhism, Shinto, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc). She said all that is required for salvation is that you follow your particular religion faithfully. Also, she has taught me that Hell does not exist. Only Heaven and Purgatory. There are other examples, but I’ll leave them out in the interest of space.

If I have posted this on the wrong forum, I apologize. The moderators can feel free to move this to whatever forum is appropriate.

By the way, I’ve been praying about this. Anyone who has any insight, please help. Thanks!

It is such a pity that someone who has made the painful mutation from “Old Testament Jew” to “New Testament Jew” – Roman Catholic Christian – has to witness such un-Biblical Catholic hypocrisy.

Your analysis is correct. It is improper for the pastor to permit the partners in an “open and notorious” sexually active relationship not between a man and woman married to each other, to (a) receive Comminion; or (b) participate as lector at Mass.

In part, your pastor is there precisely to bar such things in his Church.

Functionally, he, too, is in rebellion against the Church’s authority.

Print this response and show it to your pastor. Whereas the feeling of affection one homosexual feels for another is probably “pre-wired,” the decision of the homosexual to express that affection by perverted sex acts is NOT pre-wired. Your pastor, by administering Communion to sexually active homosexuals, is reinforcing sinful perverted acts with God’s holiest sacrament! Your pastor is himself guilty of sacrilege, as far as I can see!

 

[promethius]

While telling this chap to run off to another parish, which may or may not be an appropriate decision, we’ve forgotten to advise him about his original questions.

Jew_Man_73:

My main concern is the fact that we have a gay couple in our parish. This couple is sexually active, and very open about themselves. Furthermore, they are gay rights activists. They are very active in the “gay marriage” movement. This couple belongs to a gay men’s chorus (no affiliation with the church) and they had a performance a few weeks ago. Several members of the church choir went. I was asked if I wanted to buy a ticket, but I declined.

While it is acceptable for the people to attend the gay men’s chorus SO LONG AS IT DOES NOT PROMOTE AN ACTIVE GAY LIFESTYLE, it is unnacceptable for a gay couple to use a catholic church as a forum to promote sinful practices. This situation is entirely innappropriate.

Jew_Man_73:

The choir director is fully aware of them, but allowed them on the choir anyway. She has made it clear that she disapproves of their relationship, but feels that she would be unloving if she didn’t allow them on the choir.

Your choir director is correct. Singing in the choir is not contingent on being in a state of grace.

Jew_Man_73:

The priest and RCIA director are also aware of them, as is the nun. This couple is allowed to receive Communion every Sunday, which I have been told by some devout acquaintances of mine is against the teachings of the Church.

COMPLETELY UNNACCEPTABLE. those who live in a fornicating relationship of any kind, much less of the active homosexual lifestyle, are prohibited from communion until they are once again in a state of grace. to take communion while in a state of mortal sin is to commit the sin of sacrilage and worsen a persons plight.

Jew_Man_73:

In addition, one of these men is a lector, and appears before the congregation on a regular basis in this capacity. These two men constantly joke around in a vulgar, sexual manner, making all kinds of gay sex jokes. They do this all the time in front of the choir members, and have done it to me as well. Several times now they have made crude sexual jokes to me. One of them also has made it a bit obvious that he finds me attractive.

not acceptable. lectors are a minister and hence need to be in a state of grace. Again, the catholic church is not a venue for any material which promotes active gay lifestyle and you should not have to put up with harassment in your own church.

Jew_Man_73:

I have spoken to my choir director about this, and she became angry at me. She admitted that she knows what the Church teaches, but disagrees with it.

then your choir director is not catholic. i would quite and let her know that while you love the catholic church you cannot follow her teachings which stand against it.

Jew_Man_73:

She said that the fact that these men are not denied Communion shows that this parish is a loving parish, and not “traditional, hard-nosed, and cold-hearted.” Furthermore, it has come to my attention that she has been talking about me behind my back, in relation to this issue.

it shows precisely that this parish is in a dire state, and that it is NOT loving. If this parish were loving it would not be helping these men to commit sacrilage by tainting the sacrament of communion with a sinful offering. instead, if the right course were preserved, it would help these men’s souls. this view isnt the right and loving view, its the easy cop out. and the fact that your choir director is now talking about you behind your back shows that she is not a trustworthy and loving minister of the church. again, in your position i would quite the choir and let her know all these reasons.

Jew_Man_73:

she has taught me that everyone is saved, regardless of what their religion is (Buddhism, Shinto, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc). She said all that is required for salvation is that you follow your particular religion faithfully. Also, she has taught me that Hell does not exist. Only Heaven and Purgatory. There are other examples, but I’ll leave them out in the interest of space.

all heresies against the teachings of the church. this especially needs to be brought to the attention of the bishop, as the false teachings by a rogue RCIA instructor will irrevocably damage the catholic lives of MANY new converts to the church.

 

[gardenswithkids]

CARose:

You haven’t mentioned whether you have spoken to the priest about what you’ve encountered,…

I agree. You should speak to the pastor first. He may lack the courage to address the issue and remove them from the choir and lector schedule because he doesn’t know how much scandal they create. He may be aware of their lifestyle without realizing they are flaunting it and telling vulgar jokes etc. (Hmm, couldn’t that last part fall into “sexual harrassment” territory? Volunteers of the parish should not do such things regardless of their sexual orientation.) The pastor may not realize the RCIA director is not teaching in accordance to the Church, especially if it’s only on one or two points that she misinforms the class.

If your pastor doesn’t do anything, or if he defends what they are doing,* then* contact the bishop. You should go through the proper channels, and that means have the courtesy to give your pastor a chance to remedy the scandal before you go over his head to the bishop.

Lastly, pray that your priest and bishop have courage to preach the truth in love to all in your parish. Pray hard.

 

[mercygate]

Jew_Man, the Lord must love you a LOT to have set you down in such a hotbed of trouble. You know that’s what he does to his pets, don’t you?

 

[Lillith]

gardenswithkids:

I agree. You should speak to the pastor first. He may lack the courage to address the issue and remove them from the choir and lector schedule because he doesn’t know how much scandal they create. He may be aware of their lifestyle without realizing they are flaunting it and telling vulgar jokes etc. (Hmm, couldn’t that last part fall into “sexual harrassment” territory? Volunteers of the parish should not do such things regardless of their sexual orientation.) The pastor may not realize the RCIA director is not teaching in accordance to the Church, especially if it’s only on one or two points that she misinforms the class.

If your pastor doesn’t do anything, or if he defends what they are doing,* then* contact the bishop. You should go through the proper channels, and that means have the courtesy to give your pastor a chance to remedy the scandal before you go over his head to the bishop.

Lastly, pray that your priest and bishop have courage to preach the truth in love to all in your parish. Pray hard.

I understand what you are saying here…but personally I think it would be very akward for a catechumen to confront a priest about the goings on in a church, and I don’t think the priest will take it well.

He is supposed to be learning, not teaching…this is sad all around

 

[mercygate]

Lillith:

I understand what you are saying here…but personally I think it would be very akward for a catechumen to confront a priest about the goings on in a church, and I don’t think the priest will take it well.

He is supposed to be learning, not teaching…this is sad all around

Bingo. When he’s up and running he can take the lead. For now, others should handle it – partly using him as an excuse: Do we want our catechumens to be confronted with things like this?

 

[CARose]

Awkward or not, it is the responsibility of each of us to let the light shine when necessary. As a catechuman, it is JM’s responsibility to approach the Pastor with utmost charity and humility. But he absolutely must approach him if he believes that scandal is occuring in the parish due to the assignments for which the pastor is responsible.

I agree with promethius that the Choir member need not be excluded from the choir simply because he is homosexual. However, with what appears to be an agenda, it may not be appropriate for him to be in such an honored position in the parish. Either way is up to the pastor.

I would not, however, quit simply because the choir director is confused on the teachings of the church. You have already provided her with information on her faith.

I agree with Mercy, that Christ has much in store for you!

Good luck and God Bless,

CARose

 

[DianJo]

mercygate:

Bingo. When he’s up and running he can take the lead. For now, others should handle it – partly using him as an excuse: Do we want our catechumens to be confronted with things like this?

At first, my reaction was - RUN LIKE HELL!!!
But then my rationale kicked in…killjoy!

I certainly understand your point here but I don’t think you have to be Catholic to recognize unsound bible teaching. As someone else said, he can go to the pastor in a humble manner and being very charitable, explain the abuses he outlined for us. I would think that a good pastor would want to make sure that his catechumens are being taught correctly and are obeying the teachings of the church.

I would not let the fact that you are not “offically” Catholic yet stop you from letting the pastor know your concerns and what you’ve personally witnessed and experienced - he needs to know that. His answer and attitiude depends on whether you go to the Bishop or not.

For future reference, if these abuses are not corrected then I would leave the parish (as a last resort). Try to correct them for yourself and the other parishioners so that error will not continue to be taught in your parish.

I am so sorry you are having to go through this - but maybe it’s for a reason? Maybe you are to be the catalyst!

 

[mercygate]

DianJo:

I certainly understand your point here but I don’t think you have to be Catholic to recognize unsound bible teaching. As someone else said, he can go to the pastor in a humble manner and being very charitable, explain the abuses he outlined for us. I would think that a good pastor would want to make sure that his catechumens are being taught correctly and are obeying the teachings of the church.

I would not let the fact that you are not “offically” Catholic yet stop you from letting the pastor know your concerns and what you’ve personally witnessed and experienced - he needs to know that. His answer and attitiude depends on whether you go to the Bishop or not.

For future reference, if these abuses are not corrected then I would leave the parish (as a last resort). Try to correct them for yourself and the other parishioners so that error will not continue to be taught in your parish.

I am so sorry you are having to go through this - but maybe it’s for a reason? Maybe you are to be the catalyst!

My point is largely that even though Jew_Man is correct, even though he would be acting “humbly” and “charitably,” he will likely be perceived as being pushy, judgmental, and overstepping himself. This will jeopardize the cause. The approach to the pastor MUST be made by a team of trusted and seasoned parishoners with impeccable reputations as supporters of the parish/priest.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Lillith:

I understand what you are saying here…but personally I think it would be very akward for a catechumen to confront a priest about the goings on in a church, and I don’t think the priest will take it well.

He is supposed to be learning, not teaching…this is sad all around

I read that he was a convert and assumed he was already a Catholic. Yes, that does put him an extremely difficult situation. I would hope his sponsor (or someone else assisting his conversion in the RCIA program) would step up and speak up on his behalf so our catechumens are not exposed to crude sexual jokes and scandal. He may want to speak to his sponsor and ask his sponsor to do something. But if a catechumen is up to the challenge, even catechumens should be able to speak to a pastor about an issue in the parish causing him personal scandal. It doesn’t have to be a confrontation with the priest–he could just approached with, “I’m having trouble and don’t know what to do. Could you help me?..”

Many people here adviced him to go to the bishop, and I wanted to make the point that we should go to the pastor before we go to the bishop. He may prefer to do neither and simply find a different parish or simply stay and keep praying. Yes, this is sad all around. We should all pray that his faith remain strong through this ordeal.

 

[Lillith]

mercygate:

My point is largely that even though Jew_Man is correct, even though he would be acting “humbly” and “charitably,” he will likely be perceived as being pushy, judgmental, and overstepping himself. This will jeopardize the cause. The approach to the pastor MUST be made by a team of trusted and seasoned parishoners with impeccable reputations as supporters of the parish/priest.

I strongly agree…We have to protect our Catechumens…

On that note…I want a compromise. After thinking about it…The priest should know the personal situations…such as the two men gossiping about this young man being gay:bigyikes:

And the jokes that make him uncomfortable…possibley this will kick in the priests own protective feelings I would hope.

As far as church doctrine…a catechumen cannot stand up to a priest, and it must be as mercygate says.

 

[Brad]

Jew_Man_73:

Hi everyone,

Over the past two months, I have become aware of some things that are going on in my parish. Just to let everyone know where I come from, I’m a recent convert from Reform Judaism. I’m currently in RCIA.

My main concern is the fact that we have a gay couple in our parish. This couple is sexually active, and very open about themselves. Furthermore, they are gay rights activists. They are very active in the “gay marriage” movement. This couple belongs to a gay men’s chorus (no affiliation with the church) and they had a performance a few weeks ago. Several members of the church choir went. I was asked if I wanted to buy a ticket, but I declined.

The choir director is fully aware of them, but allowed them on the choir anyway. She has made it clear that she disapproves of their relationship, but feels that she would be unloving if she didn’t allow them on the choir. The priest and RCIA director are also aware of them, as is the nun. This couple is allowed to receive Communion every Sunday, which I have been told by some devout acquaintances of mine is against the teachings of the Church.

In addition, one of these men is a lector, and appears before the congregation on a regular basis in this capacity. These two men constantly joke around in a vulgar, sexual manner, making all kinds of gay sex jokes. They do this all the time in front of the choir members, and have done it to me as well. Several times now they have made crude sexual jokes to me. One of them also has made it a bit obvious that he finds me attractive.

I have spoken to my choir director about this, and she became angry at me. She admitted that she knows what the Church teaches, but disagrees with it. She said that the fact that these men are not denied Communion shows that this parish is a loving parish, and not “traditional, hard-nosed, and cold-hearted.” Furthermore, it has come to my attention that she has been talking about me behind my back, in relation to this issue.

I have been told that this is a “Judas parish”, and that I should leave it. What is a “Judas parish?” I would also like to let everyone know that in spite of these experiences, I have met many devout, orthodox, loving Catholics at this parish, and have befriended them. I have to admit I feel torn. On one hand, I’m sick of this and want to leave. On the other, I don’t want to leave the good, devout friends I’ve met there.

There are also other issues that I’ve discovered at this parish. I have learned from a couple of devout acqaintances that my RCIA director ahs been teaching me things that contradict official Church doctrine. For example, she has taught me that everyone is saved, regardless of what their religion is (Buddhism, Shinto, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc). She said all that is required for salvation is that you follow your particular religion faithfully. Also, she has taught me that Hell does not exist. Only Heaven and Purgatory. There are other examples, but I’ll leave them out in the interest of space.

If I have posted this on the wrong forum, I apologize. The moderators can feel free to move this to whatever forum is appropriate.

By the way, I’ve been praying about this. Anyone who has any insight, please help. Thanks!

Every time I saw them I would ask them if they had gone to confession or were they still living in and prmoting sin. I would also order USCCB documents on protecting marriage and put them in the Church. I would then work to get Eucharistic Adoration as often as possible at the parish. And I would talk to the pastor about their abominable behavior, then the Bishop if it produced no results. As far as them making advances, I’d tell them to cool it or else.

 

[DianJo]

mercygate:

My point is largely that even though Jew_Man is correct, even though he would be acting “humbly” and “charitably,” he will likely be perceived as being pushy, judgmental, and overstepping himself. This will jeopardize the cause. The approach to the pastor MUST be made by a team of trusted and seasoned parishoners with impeccable reputations as supporters of the parish/priest.

A “team” would probably be better !

 

[Brad]

mercygate:

My point is largely that even though Jew_Man is correct, even though he would be acting “humbly” and “charitably,” he will likely be perceived as being pushy, judgmental, and overstepping himself. This will jeopardize the cause. The approach to the pastor MUST be made by a team of trusted and seasoned parishoners with impeccable reputations as supporters of the parish/priest.

Often you cannot find such at team, especially when the going gets tough. You must address the situation anyways.

 

[javelin]

A couple things.

First of all, I do not pretend to be any authority on this kind of stuff, but I have some thoughts that maybe God has planted to help you.

I do not think you need to leave the parish. Most parishes have problems – some moreso than others – but if you truly have some friends who you feel can be part of the community with you, then don’t let others drive you out. It is your decision, but don’t throw away good relationships because you’re trying to uphold a principle that you don’t have to. None of what is happening there is your responsibility, and it is not your responsibility to fix it.

The responsibility lies with the pastor, and if he is not upholding his responsibility, the bishop. So I completely agree with previous posters who said you should bring it up to the pastor. As for those saying you should not because you are a catecumen, I disagree. Yes, it might be better if you were a regular member of the parish, but you aren’t. If you don’t bring it to the pastor, and don’t know anyone else in the parish well enough for them to do it with you, you don’t have any other choice besides trying to ignore it, which seems sadly impossible.

Do you have an RCIA sponsor? What does s/he think?

My only advice in approaching the pastor is to do it with questions instead of accusations. Ask him if he would mind meeting with you personally regarding your formation, to help answer some questions. Then phrase every concern as a genuine question, such as:

“Do all baptised people go to Heaven or Purgatory, or is it possible for someone to go to hell? I’m confused because in RCIA, said that no one is going to hell, and that doesn’t seem right to me.”

“I’ve been having a really hard time in choir lately. (gay man 1’s name) and (gay man 2’s name) talk about sex, make explicit sexual jokes, and even have made subtle advances to me. It makes me extremely uncomfortable that people are behaving that way in the House of God. (The choir director) basically ridiculed me when I told her how uncomfortable it made me. I love praising God in song, but the situation there is becoming unbearable. Must I quit, or can something be done?”

“It seems very strange to me that people who are openly living a sinful lifestyle prominently serve in the church and receive communion. What does the Church teach about this? I want to understand so I can act appropriately when I am received into the Church at Easter.”

Questions like this make it clear that you are entrusting yourself to the pastor’s leadership, instead of coming across as questioning that leadership.

Obviously, you need to make the words your own, but coming to the pastor with humility, seeking answers, would befit your status as a catechumen. Listen to his answers carefully and if his response(s) are unsatisfactory you can then contact the bishop’s office for clarification.

I wouldn’t press the issue of whether he should be denying the gay men communion. That is a widely disputed issue, and it is probably not your place. After all, they are only receiving damnation upon themselves, and the state of their souls are not for you or me to judge. The notion of when sin is blatant enough to be scandalous and require denial of the Eucharist is a vast gray area right now, best defined by your bishop. This is one thing I think you could ask the bishop about directly, even before talking to your pastor, as long as you are 100% sure the pastor knows about the men’s sexual involvement with one another.

On the bright side, you are obviously learning much through this difficult process. I pray that the scandal you see does not dim your joy at coming into Christ’s Church!

Whew! Sorry this got soooo long. May God’s Grace be with you.

Peace,
javelin

 

[Lillith]

Brad:

Often you cannot find such at team, especially when the going gets tough. You must address the situation anyways.

But not as a catechumen. I don’t want Jew_man’s first experience with the Catholic church to be fighting off gay men, fighting heresy, and confronting a priest to take charge (which he should be doing anyway)

A catechumen is supposed to be enjoying his journey, learning the faith, embracing new forms of prayer, looking forward to Christ in the Eucharist…

For his own sake he should leave, If after telling the priest about the personal assaults he has recieved, things are not quickly resolved!

 

[javelin]

mercygate:

… But 6 people . . . they might have a chance…

Though 7 is always better than 6!

 

[Kyenta]

Jew_Man, I am so sorry you are going through such sadness and pain with the goings on at your Parish. Even though you are still in RCIA, this is Your Parish. :yup: You have made friends who are great Catholics.

The advice given here is excellent. I like the idea of getting a few together and sitting calmly with the Pastor about the abuses going on in Christs Church. The Pastor is certainly aware but maybe it’s hearing your words that can make the difference.

I also believe that for some reason, Our Lord is choosing you to help clean His Church. He is pained by what is going on and although it will be difficult, He is handing His Cross over to you. Be strong and offer your sufferings up for His intentions.

Pray, Pray, Pray! Drop out of the choir if you must. Don’t get into uncharitable conversations with those who are sinning. God is aware and will deal with them at the proper time. Maybe you can find different Mass times. Keep your mind always on the Euchrist.

I will keep you in my prayers Jew_Man. I will also pray for the conversion of all sinners especially those found in our Universal Church.
Blessings,
Kyenta

 

[antiaphrodite]

jew_man, i am more sorry than i can say, that you should be exposed to such… oh well i better not say it.

however, it seems God has great things planned for you!

we will be praying.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

gardenswithkids:

I read that he was a convert and assumed he was already a Catholic. Yes, that does put him an extremely difficult situation. I would hope his sponsor (or someone else assisting his conversion in the RCIA program) would step up and speak up on his behalf so our catechumens are not exposed to crude sexual jokes and scandal. He may want to speak to his sponsor and ask his sponsor to do something. But if a catechumen is up to the challenge, even catechumens should be able to speak to a pastor about an issue in the parish causing him personal scandal. It doesn’t have to be a confrontation with the priest–he could just approached with, “I’m having trouble and don’t know what to do. Could you help me?..”

Many people here adviced him to go to the bishop, and I wanted to make the point that we should go to the pastor before we go to the bishop. He may prefer to do neither and simply find a different parish or simply stay and keep praying. Yes, this is sad all around. We should all pray that his faith remain strong through this ordeal.

I don’t have a sponsor. No one has said anything to me about a sponsor, although I’ve read on Catholic websites that it’s standard for catechumens to have a sponsor. I wish I did. If I had a sponsor, I’d probably go to that person first before I did anything else.

By the way, one of these gay men is a convert. I was told (by him) that our RCIA director allowed him to go through RCIA and be confirmed knowing all along that he was an active homosexual. This infuriates me.