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tom25
Guest
I am curious, has there been any Catholic work done on the theology of the cross?
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
This was the first things that came to my mind:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html
po18guy
Well-known member
As a practical matter, it is easily observed during Holy Week, in which the cross of Christ is venerated on Good Friday. It is observed in the crucifix present at each mass. It is present at the insistence of Saint Paul, who resolved to know nothing among men but Christ, and Him crucified. The Holy Mass is centered on the cross, as Christ was bearing it at the last supper until the atonement was complete.
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MaryT777
Guest
po18guy
Well-known member
Are you voting “present”?
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tom25
Guest
I think I might want to clarify. The Theology of the Cross is an attempt to summarize Luther’s theses at the Heidelberg Disputation. The short and the skinny of which, I believe are illustrated on these links,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology_of_the_Cross (which I have spent time studying)
opc.org/new_horizons/NH05/10b.html (which I have recently came across, but have no complaints however).
I am curious on whether or not someone in the RCC studied this theology and did any work on it or with it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology_of_the_Cross (which I have spent time studying)
opc.org/new_horizons/NH05/10b.html (which I have recently came across, but have no complaints however).
I am curious on whether or not someone in the RCC studied this theology and did any work on it or with it.
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MaryT777
Guest
LOL! Yes of course, present and most importantly SUBSCRIBED to the thread!!!Are you voting “present”?
po18guy
Well-known member
Can you distill it?
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jochoa
Guest
Here are some connections to consider:
- According to CCC 2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross.
- Perfection is found in Heaven.
- Heaven is unending joy with unbreakable peace.
- The only way to experience unending joy with unbreakable peace is to get everything one wants and needs.
- The only way to get everything one wants and needs as a human being is to always want to be, as well as be, patient and kind, even in the face of unjust cruelty, to the point of death, AKA Embracing unjust Crucifixion.
- Then when one solves how to share the means to experience Heaven with an unlimited number of persons, given absolute solitude, the Theology of the Holy Trinity makes perfect sense!
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tom25
Guest
po18guy, the best way I can distill it is that someone who holds to the theology of the cross is someone who holds to, and preaches, what is nonsense or absurd to the world. We are inherently offensive, and opposed to God, and yet He saves us anyway; God loves us when He has every reason to hate us.
jochoa, I am sorry, but that didn’t.
jochoa, I am sorry, but that didn’t.
po18guy
Well-known member
This is implicit in the Gospel message. In that sense, the Church both practices and preaches it.
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jochoa
Guest
You are absolutely correct, when you say, “…the theology of the cross is…nonsense or absurd to the world.” This is because the theology of the cross is from God, and not of the world.
You are definitely correct! The question becomes: When will we overcome our offensive nature, and stop opposing God and His Ways, namely, embracing the cross?
What doesn’t make sense in that line of connections?
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tom25
Guest
po18guy, cool. Now to my question, has anyone in the RCC ever done any work with it? I would like to know if anyone has done any work with positive or negative with Luther’s theology of the cross, or the Heidelberg disputation.
jochoa, in Lutheranism, and reformed thought as well, there is the theology of the cross and the theology of glory. An example of this distinction in Protestantism would be to compare someone like, R.C. Sproul with Joel Osteen. One says God should destroy us, but he saves us anyway, and the other says, God wants to generously bless us, and give us “our best life now”.(pun not intended but still works)
The theology of the cross is more complex than this description, but hopefully that will suffice for a quick description.
jochoa, what you described sounded more like the theology of glory, and didn’t answer my question.
jochoa, in Lutheranism, and reformed thought as well, there is the theology of the cross and the theology of glory. An example of this distinction in Protestantism would be to compare someone like, R.C. Sproul with Joel Osteen. One says God should destroy us, but he saves us anyway, and the other says, God wants to generously bless us, and give us “our best life now”.(pun not intended but still works)
The theology of the cross is more complex than this description, but hopefully that will suffice for a quick description.
jochoa, what you described sounded more like the theology of glory, and didn’t answer my question.
po18guy
Well-known member
Totally unknown. I would imagine that some Catholic contemporaries of Luther may have commented on it, but relations being what they were back then, I sincerely doubt that serious consideration was given to it. Nevertheless, Luther was an Augustinian monk, and so the genesis of his theological training was purely Catholic.
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tom25
Guest
Alright then. Thanks though.
po18guy
Well-known member
Well, it occurs to me that the theology of the cross is the content of Christianity. No cross, no atonement. No cross, no resurrection. No cross, no ascension. No cross, no parousia. Luther was spearheading a sea change in Christendom. It was a time of political and religious turmoil. There were wars and exiles. Power grabs. As a practical matter, to further his movement, he needed a basic Christian message that would allow those whom he was leading away from the Catholic Church to feel comfortable about their decision. We today are well aware of the reformation and its effects - but believers 500 years ago were not. Before jumping ship, they had to have some level of assurance that the other ship was at least plausibly Christian.
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Darryl_B
Guest
For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18
I think your first sentence is a paraphrase of this.
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thenobes
Guest
Doesn’t this contradict 1 John?
***1 John 3
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
Luther tears things out of context, creating false dichotomies and “poisoning the well”.
peace
steve
po18guy
Well-known member
As well, Luther’s “faith alone” teaching does seem to directly contradict James 2:24: “We are not saved by faith alone.”
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tom25
Guest
The theses in Luther’s disputation are specific points to argue. In regards to the specific these quoted, in Luther’s time that would have condemned people who placed their trust in having purchased a specific indulgence as opposed to having faith in Christ. These days, an apt description might be the nice or “righteous” non-Christian. Similar in to Hebrews 11:6. “But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.”
po18guy, the doctrine of Sola Fide holds that faith lives, acts, and does stuff. If I have true faith, it will compel me to do good, it doesn’t absolve me of it. I am not up on rhetoric, so correct me if I am wrong, but looking at James, I think he was using rhetorical style to make a point.
po18guy, the doctrine of Sola Fide holds that faith lives, acts, and does stuff. If I have true faith, it will compel me to do good, it doesn’t absolve me of it. I am not up on rhetoric, so correct me if I am wrong, but looking at James, I think he was using rhetorical style to make a point.
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