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Michael_Mayo
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It is difficult to have a theological discussion if there is no freedom to explore theories.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
That is not our call. God is free to forgive anyone.We still have to follow Christ, or we lose salvation. Those who have not been baptized do not have the forgiveness of sins.
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thephilosopher6
Guest
He is. But the sacrament of baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins. We must be in a state of grace if we are to be saved. Are you denying basic Catholic doctrine in favor of heresy now?That is not our call. God is free to forgive anyone.
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thephilosopher6
Guest
We can explore, but I am telling you the Moral Influence theory is not inline with orthodox thinking.It is difficult to have a theological discussion if there is no freedom to explore theories.
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grannymh
Guest
Thank you for your sincere attempt to answer my post.“God became man, so man could become gods” - Athanasius of Alexandria
Christ, who is God incarnate, was perfect in everyway. He endured all the suffering and temptations of man. And in the cross, all the sin and death and suffering came together, and he succeeded where Adam and all man kind has failed. He overcame sin and therefore defeated it. He lifted the emnity between God and man.
This was the theory the entire early Church held. Our eastern Christian brothers and sisters still hold it. It was reintroduced into the west in the 20th century.
Blessings,
granny
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Are you now one who is quick to cast the “heresy” stone?He is. But the sacrament of baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins. We must be in a state of grace if we are to be saved. Are you denying basic Catholic doctrine in favor of heresy now?
The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).
catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church
Lumen Gentium" contains in its Chapter 1 an essay on “The Mystery of the church.” Sections 14 to 16 describe the potential for salvation of:
- Followers of the Catholic Church,
- Members of other Christian denominations, and
- Believers of non-Christian religions.
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thephilosopher6
Guest
Now you’re going off topic, however I’m not denying that salvation can be attained outside of the Church. Baptism is necessary for salvation.Are you now one who is quick to cast the “heresy” stone?
The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).
catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church
Lumen Gentium" contains in its Chapter 1 an essay on “The Mystery of the church.” Sections 14 to 16 describe the potential for salvation of:
see also Nostra Aetate
- Followers of the Catholic Church,
- Members of other Christian denominations, and
- Believers of non-Christian religions.
catholic.com/tracts/the-necessity-of-baptism
The Catechism explains that baptism is needed for salvation because it washes away sins. So, while it is not heresy to say that those outside of the Church might be saved, it is heresy to deny the sacramental grace of Baptism and it is heresy to equate other religions with the Catholic Church as decreed in Dominus lesus, approved by Pope John Paul II and published in 2000
You seem to be equating other religions with the Church which is heresy. The Church is superior to all other religions. Because through the Catholic Church salvation is extended through the world.
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grannymh
Guest
The Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity is one Person with two natures.It still makes little sense. So before the death of Jesus sins could not be forgiven? What changed in the mechanics of forgiveness by the death of Jesus? It can only be that God was now able to forgive us when before He could not. God Himself had to incarnate and suffer for us in order for us to be forgiven.
Jesus assumed the human nature simply because Adam did not have a divine nature.
I don’t know about current philosophers, but that sentence about Adam was easily learned in the primary grades when I was a young student. In other words, one has to first delve into the actual basics of the original relationship between the first human and his Creator.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
I never denied the grace of Baptism nor equated other religions with the Catholic Church. I simply challenged your assertion, “Those who have not been baptized do not have the forgiveness of sins.” Because the Church does teach that even those who have not been Baptized can be saved.Now you’re going off topic, however I’m not denying that salvation can be attained outside of the Church. Baptism is necessary for salvation.
catholic.com/tracts/the-necessity-of-baptism
The Catechism explains that baptism is needed for salvation because it washes away sins. So, while it is not heresy to say that those outside of the Church might be saved, it is heresy to deny the sacramental grace of Baptism and it is heresy to equate other religions with the Catholic Church as decreed in Dominus lesus, approved by Pope John Paul II and published in 2000
You seem to be equating other religions with the Church which is heresy. The Church is superior to all other religions. Because through the Catholic Church salvation is extended through the world.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Yes, Adam was a man, not God. Just as we are men and women, not God. He sinned, we sin. We offend God. Jesus is both a man who did not sin and God. I can see it this way:The Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity is one Person with two natures.
Jesus assumed the human nature simply because Adam did not have a divine nature.
I don’t know about current philosophers, but that sentence about Adam was easily learned in the primary grades when I was a young student. In other words, one has to first delve into the actual basics of the original relationship between the first human and his Creator.
He redeems humanity just as a baseball player hits a home run winning the game and saving the team from all its errors. They no longer matter. They are, in a sense, forgiven. But the effect is more on us than on God. God does not need to be appeased or placated. And Satan is owed nothing. Forgiveness is freely given if we are on Jesus team because we follow him.
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thephilosopher6
Guest
My assertion is the same as yours. Baptism is needed for salvation. However, the Church does affirm that it is a real possibility that those outside of the baptism can be saved. Baptism though is necessary for salvation. The Church is necessary for salvation. Because Christ extends his graces through the Church.I never denied the grace of Baptism nor equated other religions with the Catholic Church. I simply challenged your assertion, “Those who have not been baptized do not have the forgiveness of sins.” Because the Church does teach that even those who have not been Baptized can be saved.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
But you seem to me to be contradicting yourself.My assertion is the same as yours. Baptism is needed for salvation. However, the Church does affirm that it is a real possibility that those outside of the baptism can be saved. Baptism though is necessary for salvation. The Church is necessary for salvation. Because Christ extends his graces through the Church.
“Baptism is needed for salvation”
then
“Church does affirm that it is a real possibility that those outside of the baptism can be saved.”
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grannymh
Guest
Thank you for trying to help.Yes, Adam was a man, not God. Just as we are men and women, not God. He sinned, we sin. We offend God. Jesus is both a man who did not sin and God. I can see it this way:
He redeems humanity just as a baseball player hits a home run winning the game and saving the team from all its errors. They no longer matter. They are, in a sense, forgiven. But the effect is more on us than on God. God does not need to be appeased or placated. And Satan is owed nothing. Forgiveness is freely given if we are on Jesus team because we follow him.
Personally, downgrading Original Sin to a baseball game is not my thing. I need to go back to Sacred Scripture for Catholic reality.
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thephilosopher6
Guest
I am not contradicting myself.But you seem to me to be contradicting yourself.
“Baptism is needed for salvation”
then
“Church does affirm that it is a real possibility that those outside of the baptism can be saved.”
*“The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]” (CCC 1257). *
If I were you, I’d recant of my heresy.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
What heresy? You yourself said, "“Church does affirm that it is a real possibility that those outside of the baptism can be saved.”I am not contradicting myself.
*“The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]” (CCC 1257). *
If I were you, I’d recant of my heresy.
I am puzzled why you started this thread. You don’t really seem interested in discussing theology or getting deeper into what the words actually mean. How does the death and blood of Christ save us? How does Baptism save us?
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thephilosopher6
Guest
Because you seem to be equating other religions with Catholicism and you seem to be saying salvation can come from other religions.What heresy? You yourself said, "“Church does affirm that it is a real possibility that those outside of the baptism can be saved.”
I am puzzled why you started this thread. You don’t really seem interested in discussing theology or getting deeper into what the words actually mean. How does the death and blood of Christ save us? How does Baptism save us?
Now, you also seem to be implying that you do not accept Christ death as redemptive by your very questions but instead favor the view that it was only for Moral Influence. That is heterodox. That is why many Unitarians and liberal theologians hold to the Moral Influence theory. You also are implying you deny that Baptism is necessary for the forgiveness of sins. This is heretical and only Baptist hold to this kind of theology.
I started this to have a discussion. And we are having a discussion. I am simply informing you that you hold to heretical views. I am rather surprised I’m hearing a Catholic who holds to this theory of atonement. I did expect to hear this theory, but from a Protestant not from a Catholic. Therefore I am discussing it with you and trying to correct you.
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
How arrogant of you. I “seem”? I “imply”? Am I forbidden to ask questions? Does a question necessitate denial? What kind of discussion are you interested in? Only one of correcting others? Very well. So tell me, how does baptism save? I am asking you to articulate your understanding of how it works. You interpret that as a challenge and denial. It is only a simple question.Because you seem to be equating other religions with Catholicism and you seem to be saying salvation can come from other religions.
Now, you also seem to be implying that you do not accept Christ death as redemptive by your very questions but instead favor the view that it was only for Moral Influence. That is heterodox. That is why many Unitarians and liberal theologians hold to the Moral Influence theory. You also are implying you deny that Baptism is necessary for the forgiveness of sins. This is heretical and only Baptist hold to this kind of theology.
I started this to have a discussion. And we are having a discussion. I am simply informing you that you hold to heretical views. I am rather surprised I’m hearing a Catholic who holds to this theory of atonement. I did expect to hear this theory, but from a Protestant not from a Catholic. Therefore I am discussing it with you and trying to correct you.
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thephilosopher6
Guest
How am I being arrogant? I am simply telling you that is what it seems like from my point of view. I may have erred in my judgment, but that it what it seems like. I will now explain the Church’s theology of baptism.How arrogant of you. I “seem”? I “imply”? Am I forbidden to ask questions? Does a question necessitate denial? What kind of discussion are you interested in? Only one of correcting others? Very well. So tell me, how does baptism save? I am asking you to articulate your understanding of how it works. You interpret that as a challenge and denial. It is only a simple question.
Baptism is the initiation into the Church. Without a valid baptism one cannot be considered Christian. Baptism must be preformed in the name of the Trinity (CIC 850) and there also must be a proper intention (CIC 869). Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. One cannot receive any of the other sacrament without baptism (CCC 1213) (1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 8:36-38, Acts 2:38-41, Romans 6:3).
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
Let’s start over. Baptism is related to redemption. But one can be Baptized and still on the road to Hell. There is more to it than getting wet. It involves a life in committment to Christ or else it would be superstitious. That means is is initiation into the suffering and death of Jesus. We participate in the Pascal mystery. That is how I see we are redeemed through his blood. It has nothing to do with Gods anger or need of appeasement or punishment.How am I being arrogant? I am simply telling you that is what it seems like from my point of view. I may have erred in my judgment, but that it what it seems like. I will now explain the Church’s theology of baptism.
Baptism is the initiation into the Church. Without a valid baptism one cannot be considered Christian. Baptism must be preformed in the name of the Trinity (CIC 850) and there also must be a proper intention (CIC 869). Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. One cannot receive any of the other sacrament without baptism (CCC 1213) (1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Mark 16:16, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 8:36-38, Acts 2:38-41, Romans 6:3).
That is how I make sense of Baptism and atonement. How do you make sense of the doctrine?
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Michael_Mayo
Guest
And as Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium tell us, God is not constrained by the rite of Baptism in His power to save.
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