There are 2,942 Catholic Denominations, Maybe more

[jmcrae]

Apparently they are a separate denomination.

I think they are actually several separate denominations, since each one is governed by its own Patriarch, and none of them are accountable to any of the others.

 

[Syele]

I think they are actually several separate denominations, since each one is governed by its own Patriarch, and none of them are accountable to any of the others.

So now this gets interesting, you see most Protestants are not each is governed by their own Patriarch, they look only to Jesus. So I’d say Jesus is their patriarch and they all look to the same one. Sounds pretty unified to me. Your definition seems to be only about who is governing, rather than doctrine.

(Note: IMO there are probably around 100 denominations of Protestantism but I’m going with the definitions I’m being given.)

 

[mark_a]

ok, despite it being pointed out many times before, 30,000 protestant denominations is misleading, unfair, and downright false. The figure in my thread title is from EXACTLY the same source as the 30,000 denominations number people here keep referring to. If your point is to show protestants are divided, just say so and avoid making yourself look dumb.

• The figure comes from a study by David A Barrett
• the first figure was 20,780 denominations with some figure about how many there would be in the future coming from a different source.
• All the denominations listed are not protestant.
• 8,196 were protestant
• 2,942** of this number were Catholics, 194 Latin-rite,**** 580 are Orthodox and other Catholic (non-Roman) 504**
• According to Barrett, a “distinct denomination” is ANY division, including style of music, location of church, and other things that really are NOT divisions associated with the standard “denomination”.
• Barrett uses the standard definition of denomination but calls it “traditions.”
• He says there are 21 Protestant “traditions”, 6 marginal Protestant, 4 Catholic (non-Roman), 6 Anglican, 20 mixed pagan and Christian (two of which he deems Catholic), 19 Orthodox, 16 (Roman) Catholic
• Barrett also lists Roman Catholicism and Protestantism on the same level each considered a SINGLE ecclesial tradition.
  I’m not denying that there are divisions among protestants. I’m simply asking you to be honest in your discussions here. If you want to say Protestantism is bad cause it’s divided, fine But stop throwing around meaningless numbers.

I hate the 30,000 number that gets thrown around by Catholics. It just ticks people off.

 

[jonfan]

Who’s definition of Denomination are you using that bases it on “Communion with Rome”? With that I see only two “denominations” “Roman Catholic” and “Not Roman Catholic”. Maybe you could be more specific?

How can I be more specific? Those who are not in communion with Rome are seperated. Are you in Communion with Rome?

 

[mark_a]

So now this gets interesting, you see most Protestants are not each is governed by their own Patriarch, they look only to Jesus. So I’d say Jesus is their patriarch and they all look to the same one. Sounds pretty unified to me.

Except when you ask them exactly what they believe.

 

[Syele]

How can I be more specific? Those who are not in communion with Rome are seperated. Are you in Communion with Rome?

So you believe there are to denominations… “in communion with Rome” and “not in communion with Rome.” I admit I am in the latter denomination in this case, however I think it’s quite a flawed definition of denomination.

 

[Syele]

Except when you ask them exactly what they believe.

Ah but then we come to my point about doctrines… which you deleted from the quote.

 

[jonfan]

So you believe there are to denominations… “in communion with Rome” and “not in communion with Rome.” I admit I am in the latter denomination in this case, however I think it’s quite a flawed definition of denomination.

That is your choice. Either you are or you aren’t. The greek Orthodox are our closest brethren. If you really want to get into it Luther created the modern definition of ‘Denomination’ as he seperated people. Even non-denomination is a denomination. I mean no offense.

 

[distracted]

1. Your suggestion that all the Roman Catholic churches in the world teach and practice the same beliefs is sadly laughable. Parishes where almost every family has 1 or 2 kids, masses where the wording is changed to create a sense of symbolic Eucharistic presence only, or where someone dressed as the Devil gives out communion…These parishes are not practising the same beliefs as more conservative and orthdox parishes. So let’s not trumpet our unity too loudly.
2. If thye don’t it is because a particular priest is ‘liberal’. Not the fault of the bishop. The bishop appoints the priests to their parishes and oversees them (episkopos= overseer) so it is a little bit his fault (see Bishop of OC, CA et al)

The Catholic Church is not perfect, nor is it totally united, apart from a few bonkers liberals, as you might have said. The reason we are one denomination is that we all accept the authority of the Pope as Head of the Church Militant. I wish we could say we were all one denomination because we all believed in the Real Presence, but we can’t, I’m afraid (because we don’t).

I said they teach the same thinggs, not taht all CAtholics practice those teachings… I agree that Catholics do not practice the faith as taught and it is PATHETIC (!!) … too many couples are contracepting, people are doing who knows what else that’s not right… People line up for Communion, but not for Confession… You can’t tell me all those people are mortal sin-less… I’m not buying that…
You are absolutely right - in some ways… However, the Church does not condone this kind of thing & never has…
Sometimes the only thing i like about the Church is the Presence of Christ there. The rest of it is a bunch of hypocracy i can live without…
But still… i am talking about sinners, not the “official Church”…

 

[Wampa]

Asking for clarification as to why a certain question has been posed and asking for clarification as to why delimitations have been placed on the responses to that question – both requests for clarification are fair game.

Both requests for clarification are not accusations.

Nice spin attempt. However, as Syele said herself: “Well since I made clear my reasons in multiple posts questioning it at that point was implying I was lying.”

I just went back over the entire thread. You made this accusation in post 242. She explained her reasoning/motives in varying degrees in at least 12 posts prior to your accusation (posts 1, 7, 67, 84, 91, 110, 114, 117, 118, 184, 191, and 199).

I’m calling “bunk” on you spinning your accusation as a simple, innocent clarification.

 

[Wampa]

BTW, after re-reading Jean_Marie’s posts, is anyone surprised she’s since been banned? Interestingly, her banning looks like it was around March 26 and on March 28, the account Pierre_Marie was opened, spewing similar vitriol. It has also been banned.

 

[mark_a]

Ah but then we come to my point about doctrines… which you deleted from the quote.

Did I? I went back to your post and didn’t see it.

 

[Syele]

Did I? I went back to your post and didn’t see it.

Syele:

Your definition seems to be only about who is governing, rather than doctrine.

(Note: IMO there are probably around 100 denominations of Protestantism but I’m going with the definitions I’m being given.)

I was responding based on the idea that it’s not the doctrine that determines denomination but instead the governing authority.

 

[porthos11]

I’m Catholic and I don’t buy the 30,000 Protestant denominations. I would probably ask for more research as to the doctrinal traditions that have since sprung from the Reformation.

To be fair, if we apply uniform criteria, the Catholic tradition should count as only 1, based on unified doctrine (despite differing expressions) and union with the Pope.

For Protestants, I would consider it fair to identify the doctrinal traditions and group them. For example, some Protestant traditions are:

Lutheran
Calvinist
Methodist
Anglican
Baptist
…

Within the Lutheran tradition, we would group the LWF, ECLA, and LCMS, and these three should count as 1.

Under Calvinist, we should group the Presbyterians and other groups who adhere to Calvinist theology.

For Anglicans, we should group the entire Anglican Communion as one, and not count the High Church, Low Church, ECA, and others individually.

Among the Evangelicals, though, and non-denoms, it’s a bit stickier, and these seem to be the most splintered. There are many claimants to the “Evangelical” or “non-denom” title, there are differences viz eschatology (pre? mid? post?), salvation (charismatic or not? OSAS?), Bible (KJV-only?), and even the nature of Christ (God? Man? both?).

And of course, there are whack-jobs like the JW’s, Mormons, INC, (and speaking of the Philippines, heard of Apollo Quiboloy) all of which claim to use the “Bible Alone”.

Grouping all these traditions in a fair manner will probably result in a figure less than 30,000, but definitely more than 1. And 2 is already one too many.

 

[lak611]

I hate the 30,000 number that gets thrown around by Catholics. It just ticks people off.

I agree. We cannot accomplish Christian unity by quoting erroneous sources and expect anybody to believe us. That will just tick off people and cause them to avoid us. As the old saying goes, we attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.

 

[rr1213]

I’m Catholic and I don’t buy the 30,000 Protestant denominations. I would probably ask for more research as to the doctrinal traditions that have since sprung from the Reformation.

To be fair, if we apply uniform criteria, the Catholic tradition should count as only 1, based on unified doctrine (despite differing expressions) and union with the Pope.

For Protestants, I would consider it fair to identify the doctrinal traditions and group them. For example, some Protestant traditions are:

Lutheran
Calvinist
Methodist
Anglican
Baptist
…

Within the Lutheran tradition, we would group the LWF, ECLA, and LCMS, and these three should count as 1.

Under Calvinist, we should group the Presbyterians and other groups who adhere to Calvinist theology.

For Anglicans, we should group the entire Anglican Communion as one, and not count the High Church, Low Church, ECA, and others individually.

Among the Evangelicals, though, and non-denoms, it’s a bit stickier, and these seem to be the most splintered. There are many claimants to the “Evangelical” or “non-denom” title, there are differences viz eschatology (pre? mid? post?), salvation (charismatic or not? OSAS?), Bible (KJV-only?), and even the nature of Christ (God? Man? both?).

And of course, there are whack-jobs like the JW’s, Mormons, INC, (and speaking of the Philippines, heard of Apollo Quiboloy) all of which claim to use the “Bible Alone”.

Grouping all these traditions in a fair manner will probably result in a figure less than 30,000, but definitely more than 1. And 2 is already one too many.

Decent start. Here’s another perspective…look at my post in this thread no. 68.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=141315&page=3

 

[jmcrae]

So now this gets interesting, you see most Protestants are not each is governed by their own Patriarch, they look only to Jesus.

Not really - most Protestant denominations have some sort of “top leader” person - Moderator of the General Council, or President of the National Synod, etc. - a “denomination” would be a specific group of local churches that looks to one particular individual or one particular national committee, regardless of what they call him/them, as the “church spokesman” or the sort of final arbiter of what constitutes “the essential teachings” and so forth.

For example, members of the United Church of Canada look to the Moderator of the General Council of the United Church of Canada to ratify disciplinary policies in their churches and to be their spokesman whenever journalists come around asking about the reaction of “the United Church of Canada” to this or that event in the news or on the world stage, and he is also responsible for creating the materials that are made available when seekers come knocking to ask what the United Church of Canada stands for.

So I’d say Jesus is their patriarch and they all look to the same one. Sounds pretty unified to me. Your definition seems to be only about who is governing, rather than doctrine.

Who is governing tells us who to ask about issues around doctrine. In the same way that the average Catholic lay person isn’t the one to ask about Catholic theology, the majority of Protestant pew-warmers are also not really the right people to ask about their denominational doctrines, either.

(Note: IMO there are probably around 100 denominations of Protestantism but I’m going with the definitions I’m being given.)

I would agree. Maybe even less, considering the number of local churches that look to “para-church” organizations (such as the David C. Cooke Sunday School) for guidance on disciplinary policy and doctrine, rather than to their head churches or natonal leadership committees.

 

[JoeyWarren]

I will narrow the definition of denomination down to “Whom is the last line of Authority of those walking this Earth”

A Catholic has an issue that he can’t answer and the Bible and the Catechism is not clear, whom does the Catholic go to?

First his Priest. If the Priest can answer, then next person is the Diocese Bishop, and then if they can’t answer the Last Stop would be the Pope in junction with the Magisterium.

A Non-catholic has an issue, whom does the non-catholic go to?
His Pastor and 99% of the time that this is the last stop. The remaining 1% the Last Stop is the Bishop or the Board of Directors of the Denomination.

I have eliminated the trinity from the Last Stop since the trinity would not give conflicting truths.

Based on that, The number of denominations is in the millions.

 

[mark_a]

I was responding based on the idea that it’s not the doctrine that determines denomination but instead the governing authority.

This is precisely why I hate the 30,000 number often quoted by Catholics. Its reminds me of political ads that spin numbers every which way.

 

[Syele]

I will narrow the definition of denomination down to “Whom is the last line of Authority of those walking this Earth”

A Catholic has an issue that he can’t answer and the Bible and the Catechism is not clear, whom does the Catholic go to?

First his Priest. If the Priest can answer, then next person is the Diocese Bishop, and then if they can’t answer the Last Stop would be the Pope in junction with the Magisterium.

A Non-catholic has an issue, whom does the non-catholic go to?
His Pastor and 99% of the time that this is the last stop. The remaining 1% the Last Stop is the Bishop or the Board of Directors of the Denomination.

I have eliminated the trinity from the Last Stop since the trinity would not give conflicting truths.

Based on that, The number of denominations is in the millions.

But you do realize, this is not how the protestants (who name their denominations for a specific purpose) define it? in essence you are using your own definition to make a point to protestants who have a different definition. How will this help convince the protestant that they need more unity?