There is no God. .

[Love4All]

but Love.

There is no God but Love.

There is no God, but Love.

This thread isn’t about atheism, but I would like to get (name removed by moderator)ut from some of our atheist friends here, as well as theists.

The first complete sentence above has no comma. The second, does. The first statement is theistic, the second, atheistic.

I submit the following for your consideration: they say the same thing.

The sentence gets right to the root of this religion that I call Love. It weeds out those who are not within my religion from those who are. My religion includes both atheists and theists, because when it comes down to the end of the day, both atheism and theism are merely metaphysical opinions, and almost everyone is already convinced that there is no way to prove one or the other, so why bother?

Why not, instead, get down to what is important in life? If Love is not the most important thing to you in your life, then you are not part of my religion. If it is, then you are. If you are undecided, I invite you to consider it.

Some say it is tautological. If I say Love is the most important thing, what am I really saying? Love is such a basic word, it can mean so many things. But primarily, the people or things I love are going to be the most important to me because they are the ones I love. Then to say Love is the most important thing seems to be by definition, but why the middle term? Why not just fill my life with people or things I love, and be happy? Why make Love itself into an entity in its own right? What is Love?

If I say I love Jennifer, that is one thing. If I say I love my love for Jennifer, or hers for me, that is another. Both are true. So I can love love. But what is Love? Love is the overarching principle, the be-all, end-all, of life. It is the thing that makes life worth living. It is hard to imagine life without it, although not impossible. There would still be enjoyment in life, without love, but only on a brutish, animal level. What we call love, is spiritual. It is our capacity to love, to form meaningful relationships, to allow others to matter to us, to allow ourselves to matter to others, that defines us as humans, among other things.

Among other things. Indeed. But, for those who want something better than any of those other things, there is Love. Now, some may say that Love is hard to find. I think not, it is as near as your nearest Catholic Church, in the Tabernacle — Infinite, Omnipotent Love. This is for those who find love hard to find, and also for those who are fortunate to find it elsewhere as well. Love is not limited to the Tabernacle, but notwithstanding, He is there, and if you cannot find Love elsewhere you can always find it there.

Love has the power to heal the world. Currently, there is a rift, between theists and atheists. The sentences at the top of this post state the essence of my religion of Love clearly. Thus there is no distinction between theist and atheist. My religion includes both. And it does not include all, only those who love. Only those who love Love. There is no God, but Love. For the atheist this means that there is no God, but there is something better than God, there is Love, and Love supplies all that believers in God seek to gain from their God, but without the baggage of theism. There is no God; rather, there is Love. That is reason to celebrate!

There is no God but Love. For the theist this means that any conception of God they may have that is contrary to Love, cannot be a true conception of God. God is Love. Thus, there is no God at all except for Love.

If anyone actually gets this, indeed (dare I hope!) if many actually begin to grasp what I am saying here, theist and atheist alike, we can start a movement that will shake heaven and earth to its foundations. The time is ripe for it. Can anyone else get behind this?

Peace and Love to All!

JG.

 

[Pugsly]

JP…I’m gonna give you a loving response. “God is love”…God is also gloriously Just, Merciful, Courageous, Strong, Powerfull, Prudent, Wise…indeed…God is every virtue.

In the end…there is Faith, Hope and Love…these 3 endure…I have yet to meet someone who had enduring Love…who did not get there via Faith and Hope.

The Fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom…Wisdom begins with the recognition of God as greater. Faith has wisdom built in. Hope is a child of great faith. Love is the fruit of Wisdom, Faith and Hope.

What you’re worldview does is jump to a false concept of Love…as a kind of protective barrier, a “moral high ground” and a ticket to live as you please…while scoffing at those who delve into the real work of living a good life of Faith in the God of Creation and Jesus His only begotten Son.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Certainly Theists would agree that God is Love. But unless your concept includes all the other attributes of God, it would fall under the category of heresy. In other words " Love " would have to include the data of Revelation, the Trinity, the Incarnation of the Second Person, all the data of Christian Tradition, including the Resurrection and Ascension, the establishment of the Church under Peter and the Apostles, etc. I don’t think atheists would go along with that.

Personally, I think you are just hedging or compromizing for private reasons. Linus2nd

 

[JRKH]

I like much of what you say here. Certainly the importance and centrality of Love is the overriding and underlying principle in the whole of salvation and particularly in the mission ans the teachings of Christ.
This is too often lost when people become too wrapped up in OT issues and the continued “imperfection” of our earthly existence.

However - as with any other “soundbite” statement, saying “God is Love” leaves much to be desired for most everyone who speaks English has some idea of the word “love” means to them.
It would be more accurate and also more likely to generate meaningful conversation if one were to say, “God is Agape” then your opening statements would be…

There is no God but Agape.

There is no God, but Agape.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

 

[rcwitness]

Certainly Theists would agree that God is Love. But unless your concept includes all the other attributes of God, it would fall under the category of heresy

Certainly the importance and centrality of Love is the overriding and underlying principle in the whole of salvation and particularly in the mission ans the teachings of Christ.

However - as with any other “soundbite” statement, saying “God is Love” leaves much to be desired for most everyone who speaks English has some idea of the word “love” means to them.
It would be more accurate and also more likely to generate meaningful conversation if one were to say, “God is Agape” then your opening statements would be…

Good points. The fact that we can say God is Love, or God is Agape, is because He is pure. Meaning, He is not a certain percentage of love and the rest hate, or pride, or selfishness. He is completely giving, saving, selfless, 100%. But He is a being, with actions, expressions and work that show what His love is. The life of Jesus (and death) is the highest expression of the Agape He is. And the Eucharist is the greatest Sacrament of the Agape He shares with us. Without knowing these, we are trying to pursue love from ourselves, who are only tiny fractions of love.

Love is from above,we are below
“The king has kneeled, to let His kingdom rise!” …Rush
Michael

 

[mhmtas]

There is God with infinite love. God’s love is reason to create universe. God loves his himself art, creatures so there is contiunally God’s action in universe. Love is the one of most important and powerfull way that goes to God. The love of wich humanbeing is owner is some part of God’s love that given to people. Humanbeing must use this love in the way that God love and like. Forexample people must not love earth, food, someone or anything for themselves beauty but for that God make them beauty and benafacted to humanbeing. All sources of fairness come from God. İf someone love thing in way that God like than his love wiil continue on the earth and in heaven after death.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

He who does not believe does not love supernaturally. Natural love is a good, but to equate this with God is a serious mistake.

 

[Orangebookbag]

While I appreciate the attempt at bridge-building between atheists and theists, I see serious deficiencies in this approach.

“Love” is one of those English words that’s been losing its meaning steadily over time. When a saint talks about loving one’s neighbor, are they saying the same thing as proponents of the “free love” movement of the 1960s?

It’s no small coincidence the Greeks had 4 words for love; storge, phileo, eros, and agape.
I also prefer the Latin, “caritas”.

There is no amount of secular “love” that can ever equal the love Christ had for us. As Christians, we are called to share this love with others.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

The deification of love is an attractive idea from the standpoint of natural religion. If the ancient Romans never built a temple to Love, as they did for so many other virtues and values and aspects of life, then they should have.

The Christian idea that God is Love is very different though. We do not merely deify creaturely love. Instead we see creaturely love as a dim image of an eternal, transcendent, personal Love which surpasses our understanding.

Most of your post seems to ignore this. It takes a very beautiful creaturely thing and exalts it to the point of representing it as the end-all and be-all of life. It makes an idol out of something human.

On the other had you do mention the tabernacle. If what is in the tabernacle (the Eucharist) is love, then I must ask, whose love? Is it the love of a priest or community, inspired by an ancient story of self-sacrifice and projected upon some pieces of bread? Or is it the action or even the Person of a transcendent, pre-existent Being whose Love stands before all lesser loves? If you mean the latter (as it seems from your words “Infinite” and “Omnipotent”), then it would seem you do believe in God, and I don’t think any atheist could share your perspective.

 

[fhansen]

but Love.

There is no God but Love.

There is no God, but Love.

This thread isn’t about atheism, but I would like to get (name removed by moderator)ut from some of our atheist friends here, as well as theists.

The first complete sentence above has no comma. The second, does. The first statement is theistic, the second, atheistic.

I submit the following for your consideration: they say the same thing.

The sentence gets right to the root of this religion that I call Love. It weeds out those who are not within my religion from those who are. My religion includes both atheists and theists, because when it comes down to the end of the day, both atheism and theism are merely metaphysical opinions, and almost everyone is already convinced that there is no way to prove one or the other, so why bother?

Why not, instead, get down to what is important in life? If Love is not the most important thing to you in your life, then you are not part of my religion. If it is, then you are. If you are undecided, I invite you to consider it.

Some say it is tautological. If I say Love is the most important thing, what am I really saying? Love is such a basic word, it can mean so many things. But primarily, the people or things I love are going to be the most important to me because they are the ones I love. Then to say Love is the most important thing seems to be by definition, but why the middle term? Why not just fill my life with people or things I love, and be happy? Why make Love itself into an entity in its own right? What is Love?

If I say I love Jennifer, that is one thing. If I say I love my love for Jennifer, or hers for me, that is another. Both are true. So I can love love. But what is Love? Love is the overarching principle, the be-all, end-all, of life. It is the thing that makes life worth living. It is hard to imagine life without it, although not impossible. There would still be enjoyment in life, without love, but only on a brutish, animal level. What we call love, is spiritual. It is our capacity to love, to form meaningful relationships, to allow others to matter to us, to allow ourselves to matter to others, that defines us as humans, among other things.

Among other things. Indeed. But, for those who want something better than any of those other things, there is Love. Now, some may say that Love is hard to find. I think not, it is as near as your nearest Catholic Church, in the Tabernacle — Infinite, Omnipotent Love. This is for those who find love hard to find, and also for those who are fortunate to find it elsewhere as well. Love is not limited to the Tabernacle, but notwithstanding, He is there, and if you cannot find Love elsewhere you can always find it there.

Love has the power to heal the world. Currently, there is a rift, between theists and atheists. The sentences at the top of this post state the essence of my religion of Love clearly. Thus there is no distinction between theist and atheist. My religion includes both. And it does not include all, only those who love. Only those who love Love. There is no God, but Love. For the atheist this means that there is no God, but there is something better than God, there is Love, and Love supplies all that believers in God seek to gain from their God, but without the baggage of theism. There is no God; rather, there is Love. That is reason to celebrate!

There is no God but Love. For the theist this means that any conception of God they may have that is contrary to Love, cannot be a true conception of God. God is Love. Thus, there is no God at all except for Love.

If anyone actually gets this, indeed (dare I hope!) if many actually begin to grasp what I am saying here, theist and atheist alike, we can start a movement that will shake heaven and earth to its foundations. The time is ripe for it. Can anyone else get behind this?

Peace and Love to All!

JG.

Christianity has elements of both a carrot and a stick in regards to orienting the world towards love. It patiently draws us but also ultimately compels us to align ourselves with this virtue. The “over-arching principle” has every right to impose this requirement simply because love is ultimate goodness and anything less, anything that would reduce the net love in the universe, is evil relatively speaking, and can only cause harm where goodness alone would otherwise prevail.

But unless we have faith, faith that love is real and is superior to all other values including our own selves, our own lives, even while as Christians we know that it would be willing to sacrifice its life for ours, I’m not sure that we can expect that kind of faith from an atheist, for whom love is more or less an option anyway. Faith brings with it an obligation-the obligation to love. And Christians also have the definitive revelation, held, again, via faith, that love holds eternal life in store for us after this life is over. This revelation itself is core to the meaning of love, as it affirms reason and purpose to a life that otherwise may or may not end in annihilation.

Love may be all there is-and much more than we could ever want or need, once understood-but I’m not sure how you could truly convince many of that-without faith being part of the equation.

 

[ColdComfort]

God is Love but Love is not God. ( Lewis somewhere).

 

[superwimp]

but Love.

Why not, instead, get down to what is important in life? If Love is not the most important thing to you in your life, then you are not part of my religion. If it is, then you are. If you are undecided, I invite you to consider it.

Hello love4all

  I'm not part of your religion and I'll tell you why.  Suppose we view the universe as a school with many classrooms.  Just like in a school many classrooms are designed to teach one particular subject.  Other topics can be learned in these classrooms but they were designed especially for one specific topic of instruction.  In determining what the earth was designed to teach we have to observed what specifically will cause and individual to fail in life.  In other words what quality must an indvidual have which will cause him to be successful, and if he lacks that quality will cause him/her to fail.  

 The answer is self discipline.  There are many personalities who have achieved great status and because of there lack of self discipline came tumbling down.  Most individuals come to the realization that they can't continue burning the candle on both ends.  On earth there is  no downhill slide as a result of not loving.     There are most likely other worlds out there which were designed to teach us love but I don't think the earth is designed for that purpose.

 

[Love4All]

Certainly Theists would agree that God is Love. But unless your concept includes all the other attributes of God, it would fall under the category of heresy. In other words " Love " would have to include the data of Revelation, the Trinity, the Incarnation of the Second Person, all the data of Christian Tradition, including the Resurrection and Ascension, the establishment of the Church under Peter and the Apostles, etc. I don’t think atheists would go along with that.

Personally, I think you are just hedging or compromizing for private reasons. Linus2nd

For your first paragraph, I do not think God, or Catholicism for that matter, has any “other attributes” that are not attributes of Love. If you know of any, I beg you to point them out to me. I believe that Catholicism is Love. Atheists not going along with that simply means that those atheists have yet to become familiar enough with Love to recognize the truth. The solution to that is for them to draw closer to Love. And of course, that is the duty incumbent on all of us, Catholic or otherwise.

For your second paragraph, would you do me the kindness of pointing out to me my ulterior motives, such as you may perceive them? I may be blind to them, and I seek the truth, both about myself and about the world. Thanks in advance!

 

[Love4All]

I like much of what you say here. Certainly the importance and centrality of Love is the overriding and underlying principle in the whole of salvation and particularly in the mission ans the teachings of Christ.
This is too often lost when people become too wrapped up in OT issues and the continued “imperfection” of our earthly existence.

However - as with any other “soundbite” statement, saying “God is Love” leaves much to be desired for most everyone who speaks English has some idea of the word “love” means to them.
It would be more accurate and also more likely to generate meaningful conversation if one were to say, “God is Agape” then your opening statements would be…

There is no God but Agape.

There is no God, but Agape.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

Surely, Agape is the Love I mean. But it is a Greek word, and Love is an English word. I could also say that God is Charity. But Charity and Agape both are far less familiar and common as words, than Love. Love is a more universal word, and the religion I practice is the Universal one.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Love4All]

Good points. The fact that we can say God is Love, or God is Agape, is because He is pure. Meaning, He is not a certain percentage of love and the rest hate, or pride, or selfishness. He is completely giving, saving, selfless, 100%. But He is a being, with actions, expressions and work that show what His love is. The life of Jesus (and death) is the highest expression of the Agape He is. And the Eucharist is the greatest Sacrament of the Agape He shares with us. Without knowing these, we are trying to pursue love from ourselves, who are only tiny fractions of love.

Love is from above,we are below
“The king has kneeled, to let His kingdom rise!” …Rush
Michael

Amen!!!

 

[Love4All]

There is God with infinite love. God’s love is reason to create universe. God loves his himself art, creatures so there is contiunally God’s action in universe. Love is the one of most important and powerfull way that goes to God. The love of wich humanbeing is owner is some part of God’s love that given to people. Humanbeing must use this love in the way that God love and like. Forexample people must not love earth, food, someone or anything for themselves beauty but for that God make them beauty and benafacted to humanbeing. All sources of fairness come from God. İf someone love thing in way that God like than his love wiil continue on the earth and in heaven after death.

Thank you for these words! I would offer one thing about something you said, you said, “love is one of the most important and powerful ways that goes to God.” I would say, love is THE one and only way that goes to God.

Because of the way that you have expressed your thoughts here, I consider you to be a member of the same religion that I practice. Love is the True Islam. I would encourage you to love God more and more, to keep praying, to keep loving, and to keep allowing God to draw you ever more deeply into Love with Himself. You are a Third Circle initiate. I would encourage you to seek the Fourth Circle. The circles are concentric, and each successive circle brings one closer and closer to God. Do not resist Him as He draws you more deeply into Himself.

The Fourth Circle is Faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Love4All]

He who does not believe does not love supernaturally. Natural love is a good, but to equate this with God is a serious mistake.

I would say, all love (including natural love) comes from God, and ultimately leads back to Him. I would say that without first experiencing natural love, it is practically impossible to accept supernatural Love. Also, I would say that even with Faith, we remain natural, only God (Love) is supernatural. When we love God in return of His Love for us, it is really the Holy Spirit, not ourselves, who is doing the loving.

I do not say that Nature is God, but rather that God is the Source of all of Nature. In the same way, Love is the Source of all natural love. God is not far off from any of us, but near, as Saint Paul says.

 

[JRKH]

Surely, Agape is the Love I mean. But it is a Greek word, and Love is an English word. I could also say that God is Charity. But Charity and Agape both are far less familiar and common as words, than Love. Love is a more universal word, and the religion I practice is the Universal one.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Perhaps the English speaking world would benefit from the introduction of this word - Agape.

Peace
James

 

[Love4All]

While I appreciate the attempt at bridge-building between atheists and theists, I see serious deficiencies in this approach.

“Love” is one of those English words that’s been losing its meaning steadily over time. When a saint talks about loving one’s neighbor, are they saying the same thing as proponents of the “free love” movement of the 1960s?

Essentially, yes. I would not equate love with promiscuity, and I would say that human beings often confuse love with lust, but let us call things what they are. When you say “free love” do you mean “unbridled lust?” Because those, are not the same things.

But the hippie ideal of a peaceful world, with everyone taking care of each other, yes, I think that came from God, and although the implementation of it in the sixties got mixed up somewhat with free sex and free drugs, I do not think, because of that, that the fundamental ideal of free love was flawed.

I have seen, many times, at music festivals, people going around with signs around their necks that say, “free hugs.” Some of them say, “free love.” You can go up to such a person and fully expect to receive a free hug, and you will not be disappointed. I’m not talking about some cheap sexual encounter. I’m talking about a genuine, human expression of affection. Not one of these shallow pats on the shoulder you sometimes receive from some people. A genuine, deep, loving embrace. For nothing! For free! That is love. The world needs more of that. It certainly doesn’t need people putting that down as if it came from somewhere other than God.

It’s no small coincidence the Greeks had 4 words for love; storge, phileo, eros, and agape.
I also prefer the Latin, “caritas”.

There is no amount of secular “love” that can ever equal the love Christ had for us. As Christians, we are called to share this love with others.

Are you saying that a Christian’s love is somehow qualitatively different from an atheist’s love? That kind of thinking, if that is indeed what you are thinking, strikes me as more part of the problem than part of the solution.

I do not think that Love is subordinate to any religion, including Catholicism. I think, rather, that it is the responsibility of Catholics — especially Catholics! — to diligently examine themselves, and purge their practices, religious and otherwise, from anything and everything that does not come from Love.

 

[Love4All]

The deification of love is an attractive idea from the standpoint of natural religion. If the ancient Romans never built a temple to Love, as they did for so many other virtues and values and aspects of life, then they should have.

I agree, but I would point out that my ideas are shaped by my having grown up in a world infused already with Catholicism, and I don’t know what life was like in ancient Rome.

The Christian idea that God is Love is very different though. We do not merely deify creaturely love. Instead we see creaturely love as a dim image of an eternal, transcendent, personal Love which surpasses our understanding.

Indeed; just so.

Most of your post seems to ignore this. It takes a very beautiful creaturely thing and exalts it to the point of representing it as the end-all and be-all of life. It makes an idol out of something human.

That was not my intent. It was, however, my intent to indicate a smooth transition rather than a total break. Such a thing seems to me more consistent with what I know of Love.

On the other had you do mention the tabernacle. If what is in the tabernacle (the Eucharist) is love, then I must ask, whose love? Is it the love of a priest or community, inspired by an ancient story of self-sacrifice and projected upon some pieces of bread? Or is it the action or even the Person of a transcendent, pre-existent Being whose Love stands before all lesser loves? If you mean the latter (as it seems from your words “Infinite” and “Omnipotent”), then it would seem you do believe in God, and I don’t think any atheist could share your perspective.

Obviously, an atheist who began to believe in God would no longer be an atheist. But what is God?

God is the Infinity of Love. So for an atheist who loves to begin to believe in God, could begin by that atheist asking, what is the limit of love? Does love admit of a limit? If so, then I submit that love is no better or worse than any human emotion, as all are limited. But if love is potentially infinite, then perhaps it is not too much of a stretch to accept that love is Actually Infinite, and if one does so accept, that one has thereby made a smooth transition from atheism to Faith. Perhaps not Faith in all of Catholicism, but certainly, a step in that direction. And since the nature of Love is dynamic rather than static, a step naturally (or supernaturally!) leads to another step, and then another and another. Once one has begun the journey to the Heart of Love, one step closer continues to follow on another, and the end result is to be led all the way into Love.

I submit, further, that if your faith in Catholicism is not in fact Faith in Love, it is misplaced.