There is no natural law... so kindly DROP it

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That’s kind of what bothers me about many of the petitions we pray for during Mass. We pray for world peace, guidance for our priests and political leaders, medical attention and shelter for disaster victims, success of our bishop’s “TOGETHER Vision” (basically fund raising), etc.

All good things, but it would help disaster victims more directly if we cut them a check from the TOGETHER Vision funds rather than spending $49,000,000 and counting on Cathedral renovations that an experienced contractor who knows the details told me could have been done just as well for $27,000,000 if the contracting process weren’t run by the buddy system.

Alan
No doubt about it. , was not aware of these embracing details… big money, big problems with rip offs…its always the comfortable ones ripping off the less fortunate. The only answer is to
cause the comfortable ones who are stealing to become the less fortuanate…experience is the best teacher in the world
 
No doubt about it. , was not aware of these embracing details… big money, big problems with rip offs…its always the comfortable ones ripping off the less fortunate. The only answer is to
cause the comfortable ones who are stealing to become the less fortuanate…experience is the best teacher in the world
Yeah. I always thought I cared about the poor, but until I lost my 20 year engineering career to disability ten years ago while raising six children, I really didn’t appreciate them, nor the political strategy of those who claim to be looking out for them. I now know why Bill Clinton said things like, “I feel your pain.” That is something a “disadvantaged” person wants to hear from a leader they think they need on their side for their very survival.

But is hasn’t been All Bad. We didn’t have the nice things my wife and I had growing up, and my wife and I have no idea what it is like for our children to have grown up mentally ill parents who were seldom both “normal” at the same time. But through all that we have actually been very blessed in several ways. The kids got not only a stay-at-home mom, but a stay-at-home dad as well, both who never stopped loving them and doing for them even in our darkest moments. They got to see a truly committed marriage with parents who stuck together when so-called “friends” and in some cases certain family members and shockingly even professionals who share the prevailing cultural anti-marriage mentality, told her that she needs to ditch me asap and start divorce proceedings, for her own mental and emotional survival. And I paid Good Money for some of them to tell that to my wife. With recent events bringing some relief, it has given St. Julie and me a whole new level of appreciation for “do not worry about tomorrow.”

Nothing wrong with riches per se, but living in a wide range of circumstances has given us some empathy for others from varying backgrounds.

One person says an alleged God doesn’t answer my prayer, while another says God did answer but told me “no.” What real difference does it make what we profess to believe if we don’t have faith anyway, and live in fear rather than peace? Neither position lines up with Scripture about the mechanics or prayer of the “faithful” as I understand it. If God randomly chooses to hear us regardless of what we ask for, then frankly, why even ask? If it’s just self-talk, than it doesn’t take a godly psychologist to recommend doing it.

Jesus didn’t say that our prayers would be answered unless His Father had Better Plans for us; He said in John 16:23, “In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.” He didn’t say “whatever you ask that my Father wants you to have whether or not you had asked.”

Now Jesus did say that our prayers would be ineffective or worse if we harbor grudges against our brothers, and to me that includes our Catholic and non-Catholic brothers both, who are trying to have a meaningful discussion in good faith but have been so helplessly indoctrinated as they grew up in a dualistic-only mindset of “I’m right and you’re wrong” that it goes around in circles and makes everybody going around in the circles or watching them reach for a sick-bag.

Most of the time even when I may come across as flippant or worse, there is a message intended in my madness: there is more to life than being intellectually right about something that has no tangible consequences and can never be physically proven or philosophically derived. I can’t know if I’m happy with my surroundings how much I think it was from God and how much from my own doing; but I am happy and at peace in a way that if I were in control never could have made it this way, and I do things in an attempt to invite, trigger, catalyze, or cajole, others into a world where they can taste a little of what I am grateful to have, that God and life (whatever you believe about Him) has brought to me and my loved ones.

So yeah, thank you so much FurtherSuntime for acknowledging and replying to my post. Maybe this will help people understand that I am not trying to ruin everybody’s fun, but I am inviting them to taste and see the goodness of the Lord, or of circumstances or whatever, that is making me ecstatic once again, to be alive.

After being delivered from severe mental illness, I truly understand how subjective “reality” is, and I think some of us need to a) get over themselves, and b) realize we wouldn’t know “absolute” if it hit us upside the head.

1 Cor 8:1b-3:
We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God.

Sorry I’m using NIV and not Catholic bible, and just might keep doing so from now on. I prefer one search engine over another, and after years of running from one bible to another to search and quote, respectively, I see it’s largely an unneeded exercise. If you don’t think it’s the same message than please do your own research and if it is materially different let’s have it. For myself, it’s much less tedious and distracting to just find the verse, copy it and move on.

Finally I leave one request in my own self-defense, as worded so beautifully by our Savior Himself:

John 18:23
“If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”

I pray (or wish for, if you prefer) Peace and Joy to all posters and lurkers in this thread.

Sincerely,
Alan
 
Yeah. I always thought I cared about the poor, but until I
some relief, it has given St. Julie and me a whole new level of appreciation for “do not worry about tomorrow.”

One person says an alleged God doesn’t answer my prayer, while another says God did answer but told me “no.” What real difference does it make what we profess to believe if we don’t have faith anyway, and live in fear rather than peace? Neither position lines up with Scripture about the mechanics or prayer of the “faithful” as I understand it. If God randomly chooses to hear us regardless of what we ask for, then frankly, why even ask? If it’s just self-talk, than it doesn’t take a godly psychologist to recommend doing it.

Jesus didn’t say that our prayers would be answered unless His Father had Better Plans for us; He said in John 16:23, “In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.” He didn’t say “whatever you ask that my Father wants you to have whether or not you had asked.”

Now Jesus did say that our prayers would be ineffective or worse if we harbor grudges against our brothers, and to me that includes our Catholic and non-Catholic brothers both, who are trying to have a meaningful discussion in good faith but have been so helplessly indoctrinated as they grew up in a dualistic-only mindset of “I’m right and you’re wrong” that it goes around in circles and makes everybody going around in the circles or watching them reach for a sick-bag.

Most of the time even when I may come across as flippant or worse, there is a message intended in my madness: there is more to life than being intellectually right about something that has no tangible consequences and can never be physically proven or philosophically derived. I can’t know if I’m happy with my surroundings how much I think it was from God and how much from my own doing; but I am happy and at peace in a way that if I were in control never could have made it this way, and I do things in an attempt to invite, trigger, catalyze, or cajole, others into a world where they can taste a little of what I am grateful to have, that God and life (whatever you believe about Him) has brought to me and my loved ones.

So yeah, thank you so much FurtherSuntime for acknowledging and replying to my post. Maybe this will help people understand that I am not trying to ruin everybody’s fun, but I am inviting them to taste and see the goodness of the Lord, or of circumstances or whatever, that is making me ecstatic once again, to be alive.

After being delivered from severe mental illness, I truly understand how subjective “reality” is, and I think some of us need to a) get over themselves, and b) realize we wouldn’t know “absolute” if it hit us upside the head.

Sorry I’m using NIV and not Catholic bible, and just might keep doing so from now on. I prefer one search engine over another, and after years of running from one bible to another to search and quote, respectively, I see it’s largely an unneeded exercise. If you don’t think it’s the same message than please do your own research and if it is materially different let’s have it. For myself, it’s much less tedious and distracting to just find the verse, copy it and move on.

Finally I leave one request in my own self-defense, as worded so beautifully by our Savior Himself:

John 18:23
“If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”

I pray (or wish for, if you prefer) Peace and Joy to all posters and lurkers in this thread.

Sincerely,
Alan
Really enjoyed your post and just great to hear all the positive. No doubt about it. Maybe if
there was a marker we could send for great posts people would feel good and enjoy the experience a little more.
No way are we supposed to be miserable . I think people worry too much . For myself to be honest doing the best I can, and realizing goof ups are part of the package…is all I care about.

Never ask for anything in prayers at all…and therefore simply offering a perspective. Thats all I think people do is offer a perspective which helps them join the dots. (asking for stuff in prayers seems off the mark for myself…they should check vitals to see the effect of prayer not words asking for miracles…its the peace…thats my perspective on this…thats all

Case in point…(this is being relayed in a soft spoken easy going tone…no worries just expressing…plus we learn how different and unique we all are, in different things that make sense.)
.
I do not care, and could not care less if there was an eternity or not…just don’t care other then
all the people who I think could do with a little dose of eternal joy for a change…but myself…who cares…also prayer for me has nothing to do with asking for anything…never has…thats my perspective which works for myself…may not be good for others but thats what this seems to be about…learning from perspective…
.
.Not defending some of the tone and agree with you completely…I will not be here much longer because I’m busy and as well none of these subjects interest me…i never think about this stuff…for myself its boring…last week I started posting and saying…just pass by…no arguements are desired…
But I got lured in by rudeness…I have some rules in my life…one is to not be a coward and stand up for what is good and right…anyway very glad u posted …I’m going back to a forum which is Christian-Philosiphy…and have started the switch…the atheist-christians get along better and its more pleasurable…more social…not so dry…no badge flashing …
 
Not defending some of the tone and agree with you completely…I will not be here much longer because I’m busy and as well none of these subjects interest me…i never think about this stuff…for myself its boring…last week I started posting and saying…just pass by…no arguements are desired…
But I got lured in by rudeness…I have some rules in my life…one is to not be a coward and stand up for what is good and right…anyway very glad u posted …I’m going back to a forum which is Christian-Philosiphy…and have started the switch…the atheist-christians get along better and its more pleasurable…more social…not so dry…no badge flashing …
Thank you for your kind words. I do slip, but I try to hide it whenever possible. 😉

I understand about being boring. Many topics, including this one, are of no inherent interest to me, but honestly I’m drawn to conflict like a fly is to trash. I just am fascinated at how Good People can talk past each other and at each other, but not to or with each other. And, as “Jesus” in the play/movie Godspell says in the song Alas for You, “nothing can mar your mood.” 🤷

That said, I hope you stay around. IMO we all benefit from positive posters of all creeds or lack thereof. 🙂

Alan
 
Since the catechism uses faith all over the place, the omission is even more telling in the quoted part: “God … can be known with certainty … by the natural light of human reason”. I don’t even think that it was an oversight. The writers wanted to leave no “escape route” to those who do not have faith. Their attempt was futile, precisely because they just put an empty slogan up there, and not a detailed reasoning.

And I have a secret suspicion, which I cannot ascertain: those who keep on dragging in Aquinas’s five ways, or Anselm’s “greatest conceivale being”, or any of the incorrect “proofs” of God, are secretly aware that reason is superior to faith, and that is why they want to “prove” God’s existence. There was an old saying: “Everyone believed in God, until some people wanted to prove it.”

But since we agree on the absolute necessity of faith when it comes to God’s existence, we have a nice agreement. Let’s leave it at that.
Code:
                               100%  False,    Spock.    We  Don't  rely  on  Faith  only.  Reason,  Science,  Common   Sense,  Observations   Prove   almost  everything.  The  Consecration of  Bread/Wine   By  Christ    Again  and  Again is  one of a few Mysteries,   which  I  accept  because I've  Seen the  Results    Thousands of Times,  And  Christ  Said So, Repeatedly,    Most  Strongly.  Christ  Is  Truth/Love.  He  is the  Only Human    Also  who  NEVER Spun  or  Lied!.  Ditto   his  Church.                                                                                             [SIGN]   Ever  tried    Eucharistic Adoration?      Ever  WATCHED   people      As  and  After they  Receive  The  Eucharist?    The  Great  Piety/Spirit  that  Results is NOT  Taught.  It is Natural RESULT of Receiving   Christ  Directly,   as He  Taught.[/SIGN]   The    Results    can be  explained  COMMON  SENSE:   It  IS  RP    Christ.                      You  never   answered,   dear  searcher  SPOCK:    How  do  You    Explain   The  Massivelly Expanding   UNIVERSE,  the  INTELLIGENCE in it  and you?   It is not     a  Steady   state   Status.  

                                                                                                                     Scientists  have  traced the  BIG  BANG  Back  to    the  Approximate Time  when It   and  Everything  Began,  I  forgot if  about  18  Billion Years  ago.  Time   is  based on Rate of Expansion,     Which  led to  Dr/Fr  Georges  Lemaitre's   1920's  now  Proven Theory.
 
Since the catechism uses faith all over the place, the omission is even more telling in the quoted part: “God … can be known with certainty … by the natural light of human reason”. I don’t even think that it was an oversight. The writers wanted to leave no “escape route” to those who do not have faith. Their attempt was futile, precisely because they just put an empty slogan up there, and not a detailed reasoning.

And I have a secret suspicion, which I cannot ascertain: those who keep on dragging in Aquinas’s five ways, or Anselm’s “greatest conceivale being”, or any of the incorrect “proofs” of God, are secretly aware that reason is superior to faith, and that is why they want to “prove” God’s existence. There was an old saying: “Everyone believed in God, until some people wanted to prove it.”

But since we agree on the absolute necessity of faith when it comes to God’s existence, we have a nice agreement. Let’s leave it at that.
How do you Fault the Catechism quote that God can be known with Certainty by Natural Human Reason, Spock? Please answer or Fault Directly :hey_bud::hey_bud::coffeeread::juggle: Thanks for the Direct, Correct Quote, Spock! Bless your Search
 
Since the catechism uses faith all over the place, the omission is even more telling in the quoted part: “God … can be known with certainty … by the natural light of human reason”. I don’t even think that it was an oversight. The writers wanted to leave no “escape route” to those who do not have faith. Their attempt was futile, precisely because they just put an empty slogan up there, and not a detailed reasoning.

And I have a secret suspicion, which I cannot ascertain: those who keep on dragging in Aquinas’s five ways, or Anselm’s “greatest conceivale being”, or any of the incorrect “proofs” of God, are secretly aware that reason is superior to faith, and that is why they want to “prove” God’s existence. There was an old saying: “Everyone believed in God, until some people wanted to prove it.”

But since we agree on the absolute necessity of faith when it comes to God’s existence, we have a nice agreement. Let’s leave it at that.
The Church does not teach that reason is superior to faith. The truly devout would never believe that secretly or otherwise. All over the bible and all over the writings of the Doctors of the Catholic Church are warnings about exulting our own natures- including our reason- above the glory of God. “The foolish man will not perceive.”

The chapter goes on to state: “man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone.” So while the Church is saying you can know god through reason alone you are very unlikely to do so.

If you really want an answer I would suggest you find a good priest to talk to about this. They have studied the Catechism with far greater dept than most you will find on the internet.
 
The Church does not teach that reason is superior to faith. The truly devout would never believe that secretly or otherwise. All over the bible and all over the writings of the Doctors of the Catholic Church are warnings about exulting our own natures- including our reason- above the glory of God. “The foolish man will not perceive.”

The chapter goes on to state: “man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone.” So while the Church is saying you can know god through reason alone you are very unlikely to do so.

If you really want an answer I would suggest you find a good priest to talk to about this. They have studied the Catechism with far greater dept than most you will find on the internet.
Priests don’t have hours for Debates. [SIGN] RCIA BEGINING NOW, SPOCK, intellectual searcher friend [/SIGN]is The Place and Means of Listening All the Principles of the Unique Catholic Church. We can Debate Here. RCIA only has Time for a couple questions per Sessions. TRY RCIA Spock, to Learn What and Why about The CC Realities, Proven 1980 Years: Christ’s Realities In The Church!
, And Reasons, Fully. StarFire, I’m Old enough and Educated enough to have almost no Mysteries or Lack of Understandings about The Creator SPIRIT GOD. The Incredible ALL Intelligence LOVE SPIRIT God Is Tough for humans to “Explain”. The 4th Century Convert St Augustine is said to have come Closest in 3 Massive Volumes. I’ve seen the Ideal Evidences of Creator GOD, ALWAYS, EVERY Way, in Everything, Espcially Latest Science.
The Proofs, The Evidence is in the Results. ALL the Problems in the World Are Explained, Reasoned in The Catholic Church: FREE WILL of All Humans and Angels: PRIDE, GREED: MY Will, Not Thine Lord! My Will, not Thine!!
 
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

– Albert Einstein, 1941.
 
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

– Albert Einstein, 1941.
Eactly! Words of The Greatest Mind/Scientist of the 20th Century, who Highly respected Professionally Dr/Fr Georges Lematre: The Big Bang Theory of 1920’s, although Einstein did not live long enough to see the Proof since 1980’s. Dr Einstein asked Dr/Fr Lemaitre to Fill In for him at a major Seminar in about late 1940’s, documented. Thanks, Alan 👍
 
If natural law is written by God in all humans hearts, wouldn’t they all have same view on what morality is and what is right and wrong? Still they don’t.
 
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

– Albert Einstein, 1941.
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

– Albert Einstein, 1941.
What religion? You have millions. Millions of ideologies and doctrines, I wish Einstein explained more what he meant rather than taking everything he says as right simply because he was a Genius. He also never believed in a personal god, why not take that into consideration too?
 
Truth is before science.
God is before science.
Einstein wasn’t much of a “genius”.
 
Priests don’t have hours for Debates.
I hear this all the time on CAF and I disagree. I have never met a Priest who would not take the time to answer honest, respectful questions or at the very least point the person to a book or another priest that could help them.

I agree a Priest is not going to waste his time sitting there and debating with a person that does not truly wish to learn. But I’m giving Spock the benefit of the doubt because I can see where he got turned around in the text.

I don’t know what part of the country you live in but where I am from, If you have an honest question, and you took the time to try to figure out the answer you were always welcomed to knock on the priest’s door and ask him.

Only on CAF would you be criticized for telling someone to talk to the priest.
 
What religion? You have millions. Millions of ideologies and doctrines, I wish Einstein explained more what he meant rather than taking everything he says as right simply because he was a Genius. He also never believed in a personal god, why not take that into consideration too?
:rolleyes:

No, he wasn’t a theologian as far as I know. I have read that he said the more he learns about the universe the more he believes in God. 🤷

I didn’t analyze his statement against his psychological profile; I just threw it out there because I thought it was apropos. 🙂

Alan
 
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