There is no natural law... so kindly DROP it

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Flyingg;8402266:
I wish Einstein explained more what he meant…He also never believed in a personal god, why not take that into consideration too?
…I have read that he said the more he learns about the universe the more he believes in God. 🤷
I think that’s part of the confusion of which Flyingg is speaking.

“God” is a bit of an ambiguous word as people don’t use it to mean anywhere near the same thing. Unless it’s meaning is qualified you have to know something about the person to know what is meant by it. To some “God” is synonymous with the material universe. For others an immaterial being separate from this universe that may or may not interact with the universe. To some God is Yahweh, or Allah, or Lord Brahma, and so on.

Einstein did write something that spelled out his in a paper appropriately titled “The World as I see It.” If one were to selectively quote from it (quote mining) they could use it to produce an image of Einstein that matches what is convenient for them. Take the following quote:
Albert Einstein:
…I am a deeply religious man. I cannot conceive of a God how rewards and punishes his creatures or has free will of the type of which we are conscious ourselves…
That’s an easy one to reshape by truncating from one end or the other. If you want to know what he thought I suggest reading his publication. Some one on YouTube read from parts of it. Go to time marker 4:17 to 5:10 to hear the section that I quoted above and hear it in fuller context.
 
I think that’s part of the confusion of which Flyingg is speaking.

“God” is a bit of an ambiguous word as people don’t use it to mean anywhere near the same thing. Unless it’s meaning is qualified you have to know something about the person to know what is meant by it. To some “God” is synonymous with the material universe. For others an immaterial being separate from this universe that may or may not interact with the universe. To some God is Yahweh, or Allah, or Lord Brahma, and so on.
Yes, I can see that could be confusing.

LOL. I ran into this exact problem with some psychiatrist of some eastern persuasion, questioning me while I was locked up against my will without anybody telling me who put me there or on what basis. (suspected psychiatric patients don’t have the same rights suspected criminals do)

So this doctor whose English I could barely understand, got me in a room and asked loaded questions, such as, “do you believe you are here on a mission from God?” I said, “I don’t know why I am here, because I was brought against my will and nobody has yet to tell me why. I don’t know what you mean by ‘God’ because we are of different religions and I do not know your understand of ‘God’ or ‘mission’ as you ask the question. I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church, and we believe we have certain duties and responsibilities, so if that means I am here on a mission from God, then yes. Otherwise if you clarify your question, I will try to answer you.”

He wrote in his form, “Refused to Answer.” I don’t know why, but that evening they doubled my anti-psychotic medication. 😛
That’s an easy one to reshape by truncating from one end or the other. If you want to know what he thought I suggest reading his publication. Some one on YouTube read from parts of it. Go to time marker 4:17 to 5:10 to hear the section that I quoted above and hear it in fuller context.
That’s good information. I might come back later and watch the video. 👍

Thank you,
Alan
 
And I close with this quote.

“For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.”

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
:eek:
So it’s a clever way of saying, “I have no explanations and don’t care to look for any, but I can be poetic!” ?
 
If natural law is written by God in all humans hearts, wouldn’t they all have same view on what morality is and what is right and wrong? Still they don’t.
There is a basic consensus of good and evil but it doesn’t follow that human beings are infallible…
 
But is Truth before God? 😛
God is Truth.
“Science” is used to describe a way of doing certain things that God already created.

Colossians 1:16

For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
 
The euphemism “the natural law, which is inscribed unto every human heart” is sheer nonsense. What it implies is that humans are born with a “natural set of do’s and don’t’s”, or a “natural moral guide”. Of course biology has proven that humans are born “tabula rasa”, a clean slate. Our brain is not “preformatted” like the neural system of insects. It is our greatest strength that we are able to learn. We do have an affinity to learn languages, and via the languages we learn everything else.

There are a couple of dozen of “feral children”. These poor beings grew up in a wild environment, without human companionship. As such, during their formative years they were not exposed to languages, and so they never learned to communicate. They are unable to learn to speak. They are essentially wild animals in a human form.

So to keep talking about some “pre-wired” morality (which these children clearly lack) is a biological absurdity. Our moral norms are a learned behavior. It is one thing to keep on believing all sorts of “angels” and “demons” - after all these alleged beings cannot be detected, and as such cannot be proven or disproven. It is a completely different ballgame to believe what has been shown to be false - like this ridiculous concept of “natural law - inscribed unto the human heart”. To keep on believing nonsense like this marks the believer as a fully irrational person. It is a sad thing that so many of the posters around here keep on believing these and other assorted nonsense, and when they are told about their error, they simply close their ears.
That’s easy enough to say about the perpetrators of immoral acts. Can you explain away why the victims of evil acts can be scared for life if there is no “natural moral guide”?
 
Spock,
Please forgive a late response, and for any repetition of previous statements, and also length.
I asked many times. I was not given.
What would you consider “proof?” If one were to give a foolproof, airtight, irrefutable answer to all of your questions, would that change your mind? No, it would not, no more than such demonstrations convinced you of the absence of natural law, and presumably, God as well. This is because “faith” is known in two ways: natural faith, and supernatural faith. Natural faith is usually referred to as belief.
CCC 143: By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.
Faith is not something that “happens” to you, it is something that you assent to, by an act of the will. Your faith in the absence of God happened in the same way: through your human reason, you considered all the evidence available to you, and then you willed a choice to believe one way or another.

If I tell you that right now I have an apple on my desk, and you have only my word on that, you have to make a choice to believe that claim. I can send you pictures. Other people can testify. I can swear an oath. But your belief in that apple is an act of the will.
CCC 155: In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: “Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through Grace.”
Faith isn’t just something that happens to you, as I’ve said. Nor is it something you do on your own by willing it. This is where the second ‘phase’ of faith comes in: supernatural faith. By assenting to faith, we cooperate with Grace, which is God’s own life. It can’t be done solely from either side:
CCC 160: To be human, “man’s response to God by faith must be free, and … therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act.”
Now if I fly you over here and show you that apple on my desk, can you logically deny it any longer? You can certainly choose to deny its existence, but then you are acting irrationally. In essence, I have taken your free will to choose rationally whether or not to believe in its existence. Now what if God chose to manifest himself to you at this time and say, “Yo dude.” He would have effectively stripped away your freedom to choose him freely. That’s part of the mystery of God: he loves you so much that he will never force you to be with him.

In Scripture, Peter says faith is “more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire” (1 Pt 1:7). Can you imagine giving something precious to someone who only really wants to deny it? For faith is a gift of grace. And what is grace? Grace is God’s own life.

St. Augustine wrote that prayer is desire. When we want something, we ask for it. That’s why the phrase “ask for faith” is used so often. But we have to truly want it, and sometimes we’re not given faith immediately because we don’t really want it, we just want a quick fix. So if you really want faith, ask for it. Again, and again, and again, and seek those answers.

In response to the question asked:
First, I can’t comment specifically, because I don’t know the story of those feral children, other than general stories.

Natural law, according to Christians, derives from Eternal Law, which is God’s eternal decree which binds everything in the universe to his will, “to the fulfillment of its purpose” (Modern Catholic Dictionary). Basically, it is his will. According to the eternal law, the purpose of an acorn is to become a tree, the purpose of a star is to burn hydrogen, etc. This is teleology, a la Aristotle, and later St. Thomas.

Natural law derives from this eternal law, and we can know this law through (natural) human reason. For instance, we know that the end to which a person tends is life; therefore, the termination of that life should not be allowed. Hence, human reason discerns that murder should not be allowed. We don’t want people to take our stuff, so theft should not be allowed. We have a natural desire to know truth, so lying and distorting the truth should not be allowed. This is natural reason finding in the eternal law, which is the design of creation, a definite moral order and direction. It is not complete, which is why we have divine law to complete and explain it.

I don’t know the situation of those children who grew up without human interaction. I don’t know what their tendencies or psychologies were like. However, through human reason, we have also been able to discover that children need families not only for healthy physical development, but also healthy psychology. There are even physiological necessities of human development for language processing. When that is missing, things go awry. I suspect that such children would “instinctively” shy away from certain behaviors, such as murder, but I don’t know. Natural reason doesn’t necessarily apply to children who have not fully developed their rational capacity, nor does it mean that everyone is going to infallibly or instinctively know it:
CCC 1960: The precepts of natural law are not perceived by everyone clearly and immediately. In the present situation sinful man needs grace and revelation so moral and religious truths may be known “by everyone with facility, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error.” The natural law provides revealed law and grace with a foundation prepared by God and in accordance with the works of the Spirit."
Natural law is not the same thing as the laws of nature, but the two are inextricably linked and inseparable. The laws of nature and natural law are both, in a sense, ‘expressions’ of God’s design in creation, and manifestations of order and intelligibility.
 
(continued, ran out of space)

I hope this gives you some food for thought. I had to heavily edit for space, and had to cut my goodbye, which I didn’t want to do. Apologies also for repeating any other posts, as I didn’t have time to read all 23 pages.

Please don’t think this an empty or patronizing statement when I say that I will pray for you, that you may be ultimately happy and fulfilled completely, whatever you choose to believe.
 
The euphemism “the natural law, which is inscribed unto every human heart” is sheer nonsense. What it implies is that humans are born with a “natural set of do’s and don’t’s”, or a “natural moral guide”. Of course biology has proven that humans are born “tabula rasa”, a clean slate. Our brain is not “preformatted” like the neural system of insects. It is our greatest strength that we are able to learn. We do have an affinity to learn languages, and via the languages we learn everything else.
Biology has not proven anything. Biology is subject to scientific method and the use of scientific method does not allow “proof.” There is *always *a possibility that the results obtained are due to chance. And there is a very real possibility that children learn while in the womb. Of course our brains are not "preformatted’ like the neural system of insects. They are preformatted as human brains are. You state that “it is our greatest strength that we are able to learn.” If it is our greatest strength why are you so sure that unborn children cannot learn? If they can learn they are not born with a clean slate. Or are you suggesting that the *tabula rasa * refers only to morality?
There are a couple of dozen of “feral children”. These poor beings grew up in a wild environment, without human companionship. As such, during their formative years they were not exposed to languages, and so they never learned to communicate. They are unable to learn to speak. They are essentially wild animals in a human form.
They are not wild animals in human form. They are human beings with souls, created in the image of God. They may still have a “pre-wired” morality but are not able to access it.
So to keep talking about some “pre-wired” morality (which these children clearly lack) is a biological absurdity. Our moral norms are a learned behavior. It is one thing to keep on believing all sorts of “angels” and “demons” - after all these alleged beings cannot be detected, and as such cannot be proven or disproven. It is a completely different ballgame to believe what has been shown to be false - like this ridiculous concept of “natural law - inscribed unto the human heart”. To keep on believing nonsense like this marks the believer as a fully irrational person. It is a sad thing that so many of the posters around here keep on believing these and other assorted nonsense, and when they are told about their error, they simply close their ears.
Yes, it is very sad. Nothing has been shown to be false. We do not know if human beings are born with a “pre-wired” morality or not.

BTW, Jung is rolling over in his grave. I assume you know something about his theory of the collective unconscious?
 
Yes, I can see that could be confusing.

LOL. I ran into this exact problem with some psychiatrist of some eastern persuasion, questioning me while I was locked up against my will without anybody telling me who put me there or on what basis. (suspected psychiatric patients don’t have the same rights suspected criminals do)

So this doctor whose English I could barely understand, got me in a room and asked loaded questions, such as, “do you believe you are here on a mission from God?” I said, “I don’t know why I am here, because I was brought against my will and nobody has yet to tell me why. I don’t know what you mean by ‘God’ because we are of different religions and I do not know your understand of ‘God’ or ‘mission’ as you ask the question. I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church, and we believe we have certain duties and responsibilities, so if that means I am here on a mission from God, then yes. Otherwise if you clarify your question, I will try to answer you.”

He wrote in his form, “Refused to Answer.” I don’t know why, but that evening they doubled my anti-psychotic medication. 😛
Hmmmm…I was asked if I think birds look at me. I said “Sure they do. I had a couple of zebra finches in my bedroom and one morning I woke up and noticed them pushed all the way to the side of their cage nearest me and they were both looking straight at me, heads cocked. When I moved my hand rapidly they went amok, flying into the sides of the cage.”

That psychologist never liked me after that. 😛 (that’s for her).

Sorry. Just had to share that. 🙂
 
I think that’s part of the confusion of which Flyingg is speaking.

“God” is a bit of an ambiguous word as people don’t use it to mean anywhere near the same thing. Unless it’s meaning is qualified you have to know something about the person to know what is meant by it. To some “God” is synonymous with the material universe. For others an immaterial being separate from this universe that may or may not interact with the universe. To some God is Yahweh, or Allah, or Lord Brahma, and so on.

Einstein did write something that spelled out his in a paper appropriately titled “The World as I see It.” If one were to selectively quote from it (quote mining) they could use it to produce an image of Einstein that matches what is convenient for them. Take the following quote:

That’s an easy one to reshape by truncating from one end or the other. If you want to know what he thought I suggest reading his publication. Some one on YouTube read from parts of it. Go to time marker 4:17 to 5:10 to hear the section that I quoted above and hear it in fuller context.
Yes, this is explained very well, thank you. There is many scientists and philosophers who were atheists and agnostics mentioned the word God to refer to something different from the abrahamic God or any other personal God, Hawking said in a book of him that he wanted to know ‘the mind of God’. Many other non believers and I use this word while talking with believers to make our points more clearer.
 
Hmmmm…I was asked if I think birds look at me. I said “Sure they do. I had a couple of zebra finches in my bedroom and one morning I woke up and noticed them pushed all the way to the side of their cage nearest me and they were both looking straight at me, heads cocked. When I moved my hand rapidly they went amok, flying into the sides of the cage.”

That psychologist never liked me after that. 😛 (that’s for her).

Sorry. Just had to share that. 🙂
😃

Reminds of eighth grade with Sister Ann, who asked us to write a paper on what we saw in this photo in our “religion” book. I wrote, “three orange rectangles below a yellow circle on blue background, with darker blue at the bottom and a gray trapezoid near the lower right.” Sister Ann was not pleased, and she read it angrily before the class and made me take it home and get my parents to sign it. My parents saw exactly what I did.

My friend John Groebner got an A, and Sister Ann also read his in class, “a boat of Catholics has pulled into a dock and Catholics are getting off the boat and walking down the pier to look at the sunset.” I asked John on the playground how he saw all that. John shrugged and said, “I didn’t. I just made it all up because I knew Sister would like it.” 😛

Something I never understood from authority figures: why do they ask questions when they clearly don’t want the answers? :whacky:

Who is more insane: a person with a medical problem, or an educated professional thinking that all that knowledge empowers them to conform the thoughts of said person to those of themselves? :rolleyes:

Alan
 
Is truth without God? And if a God exists, which God, how and what does this God looks like?
Exactly! 😃

I hope this post doesn’t get deleted. I think it pays to have a sense of humor, even about those things important to us. :yup:

Once my psychiatrist and my spiritual director both told me within a week that I needed “more laughs.” 👍

Alan
 
😃

Reminds of eighth grade with Sister Ann, who asked us to write a paper on what we saw in this photo in our “religion” book. I wrote, “three orange rectangles below a yellow circle on blue background, with darker blue at the bottom and a gray trapezoid near the lower right.” Sister Ann was not pleased, and she read it angrily before the class and made me take it home and get my parents to sign it. My parents saw exactly what I did.

My friend John Groebner got an A, and Sister Ann also read his in class, “a boat of Catholics has pulled into a dock and Catholics are getting off the boat and walking down the pier to look at the sunset.” I asked John on the playground how he saw all that. John shrugged and said, “I didn’t. I just made it all up because I knew Sister would like it.” 😛

Something I never understood from authority figures: why do they ask questions when they clearly don’t want the answers? :whacky:

Who is more insane: a person with a medical problem, or an educated professional thinking that all that knowledge empowers them to conform the thoughts of said person to those of themselves? :rolleyes:

Alan
Flowers are Red
 
Of course biology has proven that humans are born “tabula rasa”, a clean slate.
Actually, biology hasn’t proven that at all – quite the opposite, really. Studies done on identical twins that were separated at birth provide a great deal of information as to what is “nature” and what is “nurture”. We are, in fact, born with personality traits, inclinations, etc.

If you actually have a sincere interest in understanding what is natural law (so far, I have seen few posts here that have responded coherently, and you simply dismissed those – which makes me doubt that you want to understand) then I would recommend Prof. Charles Rice’s book “50 Questions on the Natural Law”. Here’s a video on the subject:

youtube.com/watch?v=gSSQOM3euik
 
😃

Reminds of eighth grade with Sister Ann, who asked us to write a paper on what we saw in this photo in our “religion” book. I wrote, “three orange rectangles below a yellow circle on blue background, with darker blue at the bottom and a gray trapezoid near the lower right.” Sister Ann was not pleased, and she read it angrily before the class and made me take it home and get my parents to sign it. My parents saw exactly what I did.

My friend John Groebner got an A, and Sister Ann also read his in class, “a boat of Catholics has pulled into a dock and Catholics are getting off the boat and walking down the pier to look at the sunset.” I asked John on the playground how he saw all that. John shrugged and said, “I didn’t. I just made it all up because I knew Sister would like it.” 😛

Something I never understood from authority figures: why do they ask questions when they clearly don’t want the answers? :whacky:

Who is more insane: a person with a medical problem, or an educated professional thinking that all that knowledge empowers them to conform the thoughts of said person to those of themselves? :rolleyes:

Alan
I think I was lucky. My parents pulled me out in seventh grade and sent me to public school at my request. Turned out the my teacher, who was also the principal, didn’t like me. At all. Why? Because I always got the highest grades in the class which meant that her pet student (and my friend) came in second. Always. Why was she her pet student? Because her parents came from the same tiny town that my teacher came from.

Your questions are very well put. I’ve never understood that either. :rolleyes:
 
Is truth without God? And if a God exists, which God, how and what does this God looks like?
Actually I was just reading about this but I can’t remember where so I can’t provide a link or other reference.

God the Holy Spirit is invisible. I believe I also read that God the Father is invisible, too. God the Son is God Incarnate and has a visible body.

I’m not kidding here. I really read that and it was from a Catholic source. Unfortunately I don’t think I can find it back. I don’t know if this is official Church teaching. I doubt it is but sometimes I’m surprised.

So I’m just throwing this in for what it’s worth and if what I read is wrong I hope somebody tells me (and has links or other references).

Side note to the OP if he/she is still around, just in case it hasn’t been posted enough: And biology can’t prove anything; *tabula rasa *is a theory, nothing more. I have to admit it has a nice sound to it and can make people who use the term appear well-read and knowledgeable but I think it’s been around so long that just about everybody knows about it.
 
Hey! :newidea:

This is one of my all-time favorite songs and is near and dear to my heart. My late great father used to say “they teach you what to think, not how to think.”

Harry Chapin played two years in a row at our small (1100 students) engineering college in Terre Haute, IN, and Mom and Dad actually came to see him there because Dad had heard and loved the song “Cats in the Cradle” which made him cry. We had good seats in third row center because my fraternity brothers took turns standing in line and bought a whole group of seats. His favorite song of the show was “Flowers are Red” and after the concert he said now he sees why they turn up the volume so high at concerts because they need to in order to really hear and understand what he is saying.

So he went his death with three songs he decided meant that maybe “all rock and roll wan’t just a bunch of loud noise.” That would be Cats and Flowers, specifically (and other Chapin songs by proxy) and later, Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen. He thought it was really clever and operatic.

Alan
 
Actually I was just reading about this but I can’t remember where so I can’t provide a link or other reference.

God the Holy Spirit is invisible. I believe I also read that God the Father is invisible, too. God the Son is God Incarnate and has a visible body.

I’m not kidding here. I really read that and it was from a Catholic source. Unfortunately I don’t think I can find it back. I don’t know if this is official Church teaching. I doubt it is but sometimes I’m surprised.

So I’m just throwing this in for what it’s worth and if what I read is wrong I hope somebody tells me (and has links or other references).

Side note to the OP if he/she is still around, just in case it hasn’t been posted enough: And biology can’t prove anything; *tabula rasa *is a theory, nothing more. I have to admit it has a nice sound to it and can make people who use the term appear well-read and knowledgeable but I think it’s been around so long that just about everybody knows about it.
Invisible referrences in The Bible (NIV)

Invisible referrences in The Bible (KJV)
 
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