There is no need for soul to explain free will

[Linusthe2nd]

To be honest, I am tired of accepting a black box with the content that does something but, we are not aware of it. So I try my best to get rid of them.

What I am trying to say is very simple. Once you are faced with any sign which inform you about the fact that the street is a dead end, you go to double mind state, in which one is related to getting farther and another turn back. This is the duty of intellect to inform the agent about the situation. My problem however is, how the preference is given to one mind state over another? That is very important question since the chain of causality breaks when the agent is in a state of doubt/performing decision.

I already explained that as far as it can be explained. God, who created the soul, has coded into the intellect a " standard of what is good, " and a " standard of what is true. " The intellect then weighs what it has learned from past cultural and educational experiences ( retained in memory ) and makes a decision based on this process of reasoning. This is a natural process and we are aware that it is going on, we are aware that we are thinking about the situation.

But the " chain of causality " stops at the senses, they are the last element of causality. God, who created the soul, is the first and primary cause of the intellectual operations. Cultural and other life experiences can be regarded as secondary causalities in this process, these are retained in memory. So memory can be regarded as a store room of secondary causalities. Now we can’t explain much more that what I have just said.

Our intellect is a free agent in its operations because it is operating according to its nature. And the actual decision is abslutely free.

Linus2nd . .

 

[orang]

" Conscience " is a part of the function of the intellect. As such, it evidences that the soul is the immaterial component of man. The job of the intellect is to collate the information received from the senses into intelligible concepts and then to associate these concepts into complete cogent thoughts ( i.e. There is a stop light, stop lights mean I may proceed or I may not proceed. This stop light is red. That means I must stop.). My conscience reminds me that I must do what is good and avoid what is bad,.In this instance, it warns me that I must stop. How conscience know what is good and what is bad is the interesting question.

orang

I missed this post.This would be false, it is your unconscious mind which is in attention to survival which alerts at the red light.

Why do you think man use’s the color red ( alert) ?

Colors have unconscious triggers, blue is healing , amber thinking , education use’s amber light yellow in many of the lined paper to encourage calm steady thinking, artists understand these things including interior decorators with the use of specific accent colors for specific reasons, diners used to try and go as close to red as possible in order to …hurry up the customer. Explaining requires content.

Linusthesecond

I would answer that, since the soul is the informative constituent of our human nature,God has given the intellect the power to recognize what is good and bad through a long comparative process to the Standard of the Good which God has programed into the operative parameters of the intellect. So we have an instinctive understanding of the Good to which we compare every act and thought

orang ( quote buttons not figured out as of yet.

how ? how does it work , above suggests the discerning process is a programmed feature, man operates good vrs bad by instinctive programming ?

Linusthesecond

Conscience also has a " punitive, reward " aspect as well. This is the so called " voice " of conscience. If we do good, we often experience a " feeling " of elation or well being, even happiness. If we do the bad, we frequently experience a " feeling " of discomfort, guilt, or remorse, even disgust. Of course cultural and educational factors have a lot to do with what we recognize as good or bad. That is why we must make every effort to educate ourselves properly.

orang

again what are you talking about, how it works, if something is going to be explained it needs content !

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I don’t see why our decisions being determined by the factors surrounding them absolves us of moral responsibility or negates the need for justice.

I never said that " influences " absolve us of responsibility. I said the exact opposite. I said that although there are factors such as cultural conditioning, education, fear,etc. which can influence our decisions, they do not determine our decisions. Our intellect governs all, our decisions, are absolutely free. However, the influencing factors can mitigate the degree of blame or praise. The less pressure we feel, the less the background influences, the greater the blame or praise. I think our court system ( U.S. A. ) often reflects this thinking. " To influence " is entirely different than " to determine."

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Linusthe2nd;11975972:

" Conscience " is a part of the function of the intellect. As such, it evidences that the soul is the immaterial component of man. The job of the intellect is to collate the information received from the senses into intelligible concepts and then to associate these concepts into complete cogent thoughts ( i.e. There is a stop light, stop lights mean I may proceed or I may not proceed. This stop light is red. That means I must stop.). My conscience reminds me that I must do what is good and avoid what is bad,.In this instance, it warns me that I must stop. How conscience know what is good and what is bad is the interesting question.

orang

I missed this post.This would be false, it is your unconscious mind which is in attention to survival which alerts at the red light.

Nonesense, I’ve gone through that exact thinking and reasoning process thousands of times at stop lights. I am generally aware of my intellect going through its reasoning process at such moments. Sometimes it is a muted reflection. But it is not something that can be regarded as an unconscious act.

Why do you think man use’s the color red ( alert) ?]/QUOTE]

I don’t know.

Colors have unconscious triggers, blue is healing , amber thinking , education use’s amber light yellow in many of the lined paper to encourage calm steady thinking, artists understand these things including interior decorators with the use of specific accent colors for specific reasons, diners used to try and go as close to red as possible in order to …hurry up the customer. Explaining requires content

I’ll take your word for it. However, that is just a crutch to memory. So it causes us to be alert. I don’t see how that makes our response unconscious. It doesn’t as far as I’m concerned.

Linusthesecond

I would answer that, since the soul is the informative constituent of our human nature,God has given the intellect the power to recognize what is good and bad through a long comparative process to the Standard of the Good which God has programed into the operative parameters of the intellect. So we have an instinctive understanding of the Good to which we compare every act and thought

orang ( quote buttons not figured out as of yet.

how ? how does it work , above suggests the discerning process is a programmed feature, man operates good vrs bad by instinctive programming ?

In a sense all the operational parameters of the intellect are programed. God has given the soul powers - intellect, will, memory. He has given these powers parameters of operation. He has also given the intellect the power to recognize the Good, the True, and the Beautiful but the intellect has to apply itself to analyzing the information coming to it from the external world, toward recognizing how closely this data corresponds to these " markers. " Then it judges, but it judges freely. The only things that are programed are the powers, the parameters, and the " markers. "

Linusthesecond

Conscience also has a " punitive, reward " aspect as well. This is the so called " voice " of conscience. If we do good, we often experience a " feeling " of elation or well being, even happiness. If we do the bad, we frequently experience a " feeling " of discomfort, guilt, or remorse, even disgust. Of course cultural and educational factors have a lot to do with what we recognize as good or bad. That is why we must make every effort to educate ourselves properly.

orang

again what are you talking about, how it works, if something is going to be explained it needs content !

If by content you mean an example, I could give several simple ones. I know, have known from childhood that certain things are not to be done. I knew that one should not steal. If I took something that wasn’t mine I felt guilty about that. I knew that it was bad to mistreat my sister. If I hit her I felt bad. That feeling of guilt was the " voice of conscience. "

Linus2nd

 

[orang]

orang;11981686:

Nonesense, I’ve gone through that exact thinking and reasoning process thousands of times at stop lights. I am generally aware of my intellect going through its reasoning process at such moments. Sometimes it is a muted reflection. But it is not something that can be regarded as an unconscious act.

If by content you mean an example, I could give several simple ones. I know, have known from childhood that certain things are not to be done. I knew that one should not steal. If I took something that wasn’t mine I felt guilty about that. I knew that it was bad to mistreat my sister. If I hit her I felt bad. That feeling of guilt was the " voice of conscience. "

Linus2nd

First paragraph :

The problem with saying the choice to not go through the red light has nothing to do with the role of the unconscious mind is that if so…

it cut’s off the known functioning role of the unconscious -leaving nothing workable for understandings in the topic mind and soul.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Linusthe2nd;11982829:

First paragraph :

The problem with saying the choice to not go through the red light has nothing to do with the role of the unconscious mind is that if so…

it cut’s off the known functioning role of the unconscious -leaving nothing workable for understandings in the topic mind and soul.

I think you and Bahman must be from the same country. I am having a lot of trouble trying to understand what you are saying some times.

What do you mean by " known functioning role of the unconscious ? " If you are referring to " memory, " it is not unconscious. It is just that we aren’t aware of it until we have need of it.

Linus2nd

 

[GEddie]

orang;11982940:

I think you and Bahman must be from the same country. I am having a lot of trouble trying to understand what you are saying some times.

What do you mean by " known functioning role of the unconscious ? " If you are referring to " memory, " it is not unconscious. It is just that we aren’t aware of it until we have need of it.

Linus2nd

Indeed.

We need some definitions if anything worthwhile is to be said.

ISTM that our “unconscious” remains just that mostly all of the time; we are never aware of it.

Our memory is conscious while being formed, and also while being recollected, etc. it is subconscious at other times, and while powering our dreams (which contents are mostly raw memory). It is never unconscious.

ISTM there are three mind levels:

Consciousness: The mind we walk around and live life in, using our eyes, nose, limbs, intellect, etc.

Subconscious: The mind whose operations we do not normally sense or command; which filters our senses, edits our memory, governs our feelings and perceptions, performs learned physical actions, etc. We see this mind in action while dreaming.

Unconscious: The residence of our innate, instinctive and reflexive mind and motivations. We would see this one if at all, only under powerful drugs or near death.

While all three are mysterious in different ways, all emerge from the human soul and are subserved by the human head and body.

ICXC NIKA

 

[orang]

Indeed.

We need some definitions if anything worthwhile is to be said.

ISTM that our “unconscious” remains just that mostly all of the time; we are never aware of it.

Our memory is conscious while being formed, and also while being recollected, etc. it is subconscious at other times, and while powering our dreams (which contents are mostly raw memory). It is never unconscious.

ISTM there are three mind levels:

Consciousness: The mind we walk around and live life in, using our eyes, nose, limbs, intellect, etc.

Subconscious: The mind whose operations we do not normally sense or command; which filters our senses, edits our memory, governs our feelings and perceptions, performs learned physical actions, etc. We see this mind in action while dreaming.

Unconscious: The residence of our innate, instinctive and reflexive mind and motivations. We would see this one if at all, only under powerful drugs or near death.

While all three are mysterious in different ways, all emerge from the human soul and are subserved by the human head and body.

ICXC NIKA

a) The two terms subconscious and unconscious are used by professionals who interchange and basically use one or the other, most use the word unconscious but when speaking to the general public some will use the word sub-conscious but its slowly loosing popularity.

b) it is said the unconscious and conscious mind can be compared to an ice burg, the greater being the unconscious in the under portion.

c) this explanation of dreams Ive never seen, the activity during a dream is said to take place at the surface , between the two.

Obviously you guys have not got any of the basic’s here and are trying to answer questions concerning the mind and soul and guessing, with nothing concrete or even a clue to ponder about with respects to survival and the communicating world of the mind and how it works. And then trying to talk about the soul , the intellect etc.

Also in hypnosis the unconscious mind can be somewhat brought to the surface, although an expert will ask permission while in the hypnotic state. Okay so whats next ?

 

[orang]

orang;11982940:

I think you and Bahman must be from the same country. I am having a lot of trouble trying to understand what you are saying some times.

What do you mean by " known functioning role of the unconscious ? " If you are referring to " memory, " it is not unconscious. It is just that we aren’t aware of it until we have need of it.

Linus2nd

Continuously talking at my careful entries with derogatory textures and tone and at the same time asking for an answer is simply not, how Ive been brought up to pay consequence to. A way to say, oh my,is english your first language, everybody is basically on to that these days, including the popular reasoning the suggestion is used.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Linusthe2nd;11983085:

Continuously talking at my careful entries with derogatory textures and tone and at the same time asking for an answer is simply not, how Ive been brought up to pay consequence to. A way to say, oh my,is english your first language, everybody is basically on to that these days, including the popular reasoning the suggestion is used.

I’m sorry you took my comment as derogatory. But it seems obvious that your first language is not English? On the other hand, if your first language is English, then my comment is critical, but it is not meant to be derogatory. My only language is English.

Now getting back to the topic. Scientists who study the operations of the mind do not speak for me. I am basically giving you the theory of mind as expounded by Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas. It also happens to be my own conviction.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

First paragraph :

The problem with saying the choice to not go through the red light has nothing to do with the role of the unconscious mind is that if so…

it cut’s off the known functioning role of the unconscious -leaving nothing workable for understandings in the topic mind and soul.

Great post indeed. I just correct your phrase slightly:… unknown functional role of the unconscious…

We cannot possibly know the role of unconsciousness mind and if we do so, then there is no free will.

 

[GEddie]

Great post indeed. I just correct your phrase slightly:… unknown functional role of the unconscious…

We cannot possibly know the role of unconsciousness mind and if we do so, then there is no free will.

Free will does not depend upon the unconscious.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Bahman]

Free will does not depend upon the unconscious.

ICXC NIKA

Its howness indeed comes from subconscious mind, whereas its whyness comes from conscious mind. We are indeed aware of why we made certain decission, but we cannot know how we make decision hence our “will” is free.

1. The decision is made in conscious mind
2. This means that one knows why and how a decision is made
3. The duty of “will” is reduced to functioning once you know why and how the duty is done
4. The “will” cannot be free since it is sole duty is functioning

There is not any free will if we could be completely aware/conscious of why and how a decision is made. As it was stated, we of course know why, but we don’t know how and indeed nothing knows how. Any system is reduced to a pure robot/philosophical zombie once one and only one being knows how the system works.

 

[davidv]

Its howness indeed comes from subconscious mind, whereas its whyness comes from conscious mind. We are indeed aware of why we made certain decission, but we cannot know how we make decision hence our “will” is free.

1. The decision is made in conscious mind
2. This means that one knows why and how a decision is made
3. The duty of “will” is reduced to functioning once you know why and how the duty is done
4. The “will” cannot be free since it is sole duty is functioning

There is not any free will if we could be completely aware/conscious of why and how a decision is made. As it was stated, we of course know why, but we don’t know how and indeed nothing knows how. Any system is reduced to a pure robot/philosophical zombie once one and only one being knows how the system works.

Please justify 3). It appears to be a false claim, making the logic unsound. It certainly does not follow from 1) and 2).

 

[GaryTaylor]

One is debatable?

news.msn.com/science-technology/decisions-made-before-you-become-conscious-of-them-can-be-interrupted

A Harvard scientist said he found he could interrupt people’s decisions before they became conscious choices.

Technology that can predict what you’ll do before you’re aware you’re going to do it. It sounds like something a science-fiction villain would cook up.

But Harvard scientist Gabriel Kreiman said an experiment in which he read subjects’ brain signals might actually help people who lose control over voluntary movements, such as patients with Parkinson’s disease.

Kreiman’s research, presented this week at the British Neuroscience Association conference in London, suggests it’s possible to detect the brain activity associated with movement before someone is conscious of deciding to move. Furthermore, it’s possible to reverse that decision before a person even realizes they’ve decided.

 

[orang]

Great post indeed. I just correct your phrase slightly:… unknown functional role of the unconscious…

We cannot possibly know the role of unconsciousness mind and if we do so, then there is no free will.

Thanks, of course man knows basically what the function of the unconscious mind is all about,

because man knows its ability to classify, store and organize every single experience and understanding.

we might not know how it works such as a leg or typical organ but without a doubt knowing the capabilities would definitely give evidence for its role. The word is used all the time , including things to do with advertising, subliminal suggestions and on and on. Behav cannot even begin to be understood without grasping the working dynamic’s of what is going on, yuh can’t even get to understand whats commonly known as body language without these basic learning’s. Effective marketing is all about knowing how to work the customer in many ways depending on the setting with unconscious suggestions. And thanks for the compliment.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So its still argued that consciousness is influenced by other parts of the mind such as intuition thus free will.

 

[orang]

Forgot to address,

"We cannot possibly know the role of unconsciousness mind and if we do so, then there is no free will.

continuing,

as explained in my post yesterday, it might have been another thread in the area of free will,

free will is not without boundaries in principal, the boundaries in whatever setting, the world and, the nature of human in the will to live, survive and whatever comprehensions and translation the issue of survival means to the individual.

But none the less in principal survival & will to live is implicated which is fundamentally a good both individually and within the species. The will to survive would be virtuous, as it contains virtue fortitude, hope and opportunity for contributing further to mother virtue charity. I don’t know if this is going to be understood but believe it can be backed up with appropriate content. Also I’m not saying anything outstanding, these are simply things to do with assembling a workable approach, setting up for a rough start-up shaping in the topic.

 

[GEddie]

If free will were governed by the unconscious, it would be determined by a factor we do not command; and as such would not be free.

The human will is free only to the extent that it lies within the command of the conscious mind. And it is never perfectly free; perfectly free will is a mirage.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[orang]

If free will were governed by the unconscious, it would be determined by a factor we do not command; and as such would not be free.

The human will is free only to the extent that it lies within the command of the conscious mind. And it is never perfectly free; perfectly free will is a mirage.

ICXC NIKA.

First paragraph true, the previously mentioned by fellow member Gary,

‘So its still argued that consciousness is influenced by other parts of the mind such as intuition thus free will’.

In keeping with GEddie above, I believe true as well, & intuition is only a suggestion, a mini waking dream of sorts , so in the translation of , can be distorted. A flash suggestion due to the ongoing intake of information into the unconscious and things to do with organizing and classifying information alongside conscious “impressions” True, the effect demonstrates conscious free will , association and a relationship.