There is no 'right' religion

[ConstantineTG]

minkymurph,

There is a right religion and that religion is the Catholic Faith. You should not be a Catholic because it suits you but because you believe. It’s a scary thought for you to be a teacher of the Faith when it is something you lack or question so much. You are right in the sense that all religions have dimensions of truth. Not all are completely false. The Catholic Church though affirms that it is the fullness of truth while other religions and philosophies could only have an incomplete truth. This is something Chesterton thought and Father Barron (check out his videos on youtube) continues to teach. Even atheists can have truths in what they do because God works through all because He desires EVERYONE to be saved. As we are taught we can only be saved through His Son Jesus Christ. Knowing that and going against it does not save us. To object to this because you think its offensive to other religions is to object Christ’s own words. Your feelings come and go but Christ’s words are true and solid.

You seem to be against “organized religion.” Frankly, I’ve grown tired of this phrase as I do not understand why people are against organization. It reminds me of people against “the man” or authority. (not saying you feel this way) Would you rather have religion be disorganized? Anarchy simply does not work. The simple fact is God is organized. We see this with the organization of the angels in heaven, the complex but intricate world…the Church reflects this organization as well. God established the Church as a divine institution to be run by man. There are problems because of men but it is what Jesus established and wishes. Is this really something to argue? How can you be against organization when Jesus chose 12 men to help Him with His ministry? How can you be against the Apostles who chose to fill in their offices (successors) and as their oversight grew create more offices to oversee? If you have a problem with authority that you have a problem with much of the way the early Church was formed and is still organized today. People with this kind of thinking tend to be protestant but then again they are in a wash of belief when it comes to doctrine and faith. They begin to find the “church” that suits them. You show signs of this so I am worried.

People who say they do not want “organized” religion basically is saying they do not want someone who has (moral) authority over them telling them what they can and cannot do. I think a lot of people today detest leadership without understanding the need for leadership first.

 

[jam070406]

Man is not perfect, does that mean God should abandon us?

I have to agree with the OP to a point here. To suggest that if you’re not Catholic or at the very least Christian you are going to hell (because that’s essentially what’s at the heart of this matter) is ridiculous. But that’s what this question suggests. That if a man abandons the teachings of Catholicism that God will abandon him.

We believe that God is all loving and all forgiving. How could God not forgive us if we follow a different faith that still honors him just in ways that are different from Catholic teachings? Jews still follow the traditions from the OT. Can anyone justifiably argue that our all forgiving and all loving God would condemn them to hell for continuing to worship him the way they do?

Atheists… well that’s a different story. They don’t have faith at all… there is perhaps no other belief (this is debatable of course) that is a bigger slap in the face of God.

What honor is there in a “faith” that rejects the greatest gift God ever gave man?
Jesus came to earth and sacrificed Himself for us to free us from our sins. Those that go to hell will do so because they have mortal sin on their soul. Jesus gave us redemption and the means to be freed from sin and combat evil through the sacraments and the Mass administered by His Church. If a man abandons the Catholic Faith he tosses the gift God gave him away. To those given much, much will be expected. Of course, God is always there waiting for him to come back. But how could we be so presumptious to think that God somehow owes us eternal life after we’ve chosen to go our own way and rejecting the way He ordained?
Like others have stated, some may be able to obtain Heaven by way of invincible ignorance. But the Church has always taught those that reject the life giving graces administered through the Church, Jesus body, will not inherit eternal life.
I seem to recall the Jews in the NT declaring, “we have no King but Caesar”
I pray that changes when they stand before their true King and judge.

 

[laszlo]

Jesus drew sinners to Him who repented and gave up their sinful ways. Jesus never said you can sin all you want yet still hang with him for eternity.

Jesus drew all:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.

Some resist His grace (drawing force)

I contest only the sequence. The first is not the repentance, but the grace of Christ.

 

[TedDC]

People who say they do not want “organized” religion basically is saying they do not want someone who has (moral) authority over them telling them what they can and cannot do. I think a lot of people today detest leadership without understanding the need for leadership first.

I simply don’t believe the Catholic Church’s claim to have moral authority over me. Men crave power, and organizations seek to grow and perpetuate themselves. One has to exercise discernment (to use a favorite Catholic buzzword) to keep them in check.

The Church is mere men, no more infallible than you or me.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

I simply don’t believe the Catholic Church’s claim to have moral authority over me. Men crave power, and organizations seek to grow and perpetuate themselves. One has to exercise discernment (to use a favorite Catholic buzzword) to keep them in check.

The Church is mere men, no more infallible than you or me.

The Church does not claim to have moral authority over anyone - its authority comes from God. Jesus established a Church on Earth to be made up of men, yet He is the head. He must have known what He was doing in creating the Church otherwise why did He do it?. The Church reveals God’s Truth and guides us to Heaven. It is up to us to follow or not. Mortals make mistakes (Google “Bad Popes”) but that does not mean the structure is flawed. Does Watergate prove the Presidency is flawed?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I simply don’t believe the Catholic Church’s claim to have moral authority over me. Men crave power, and organizations seek to grow and perpetuate themselves. One has to exercise discernment (to use a favorite Catholic buzzword) to keep them in check.

The Church is mere men, no more infallible than you or me.

You are right, men crave power. Tell me, what good does it does the Catholic Church if you follow the commandments of Christ? Do they become more wealthy? There is no mandatory tithing in the Church, you can attend Liturgy and receive all the Sacraments for free. So what power does the Church gain if you follow Christ according to the Catholic teaching?

 

[white_sheep]

Religion is in a manner a way of worshipping God. As Christians we also believe it was established by God. Ergo, if there is a right God, there is a right religion.

 

[TedDC]

People who say they do not want “organized” religion basically is saying they do not want someone who has (moral) authority over them telling them what they can and cannot do. I think a lot of people today detest leadership without understanding the need for leadership first.

I simply don’t believe the Catholic Church’s claim to have moral authority over me. Men crave power, and organizations seek to grow and perpetuate themselves. One has to exercise discernment (to use a favorite Catholic buzzword) to keep them in check.

The Church is mere men, no more infallible than you or me.

 

[minkymurph]

See, right off the bat this makes no sense. We know Christ rose from the dead because the Church, which Christ established, and the bible which God has given to us through the Church tells us it’s true. These truths aren’t just some private revelation of yours. You know they’re true because you’ve been told. But how can you know the Sacraments are true if you can’t even trust the Church in the first place? So, your theory is illogical.

I don’t believe I said in any of my posts these truth’s are a private revelation of mine. However, who told me they were truth’s and when? Did I first come to believe Catholicism was the right religion and then consider what they believed? Would you say the only reason I believe in these truths is because I was told to? If you cannot answer these questions, your statement that I believe these truth’s because I was told to is an assumption.

You say I don’t trust the Church. Define the term Church. When you use the term Church what do you mean by it? If the Sacraments are true I don’t have to trust the person who is telling it is true. It’s perfectly feasible for an untrustworthy person to on occasion, tell you something that is true.

It’s odd that you’ve converted to the most organized religion on the planet.

Well, I’m an odd person.

Does it take more faith? Yeah perhaps, but why do you believe it?

Good question. I’m not sure I know the answer.

As a Catholic, no I can’t understand that. If I really lost all faith in the Catholic Church, I’d go and be something else.

I think you would agree that loosing faith in people is not a reason to convert to another faith. The people in that religion probably won’t be any better.

 

[santodomingo]

That’s a very good question. As far as how the forum works, I’m not the person to ask as I’m still trying to figure it out.

I am here to learn. I am a convert to Catholicism. I was not brought up Catholic and I have no understanding of the Church prior to Vatican II. I have little understanding of the objections traditionalists have concerning changes in the Church. I post on traditionalist forums to try and understand why they have certain objections. I have no desire to argue, offend or convince anyone of my point of view. I am entitled to my point of view but I have always stated on these forums it is only my point of view and no one else is obliged to agree just because I said it.

I am still finding my feet in Catholicism and trying to decide what sort of Catholic I am. There are some who would call me a traditionalist and some who would call me a modernist. One poster put it very well. They described me as a ‘both and’ person which is close as I don’t fit neatly into any pigeon hole. The reason I posted here is because I have read so many posts that focus on obedience. I am asking if traditionalist can understand why people question and I think the young in particular in contemporary society need a better response than ‘obey.’ If we are to pass on our faith, we need to meet the challange contemporary society presents. ‘Obey’ is not enough. We also need to acknowledge mistakes and explain why the Church is older and wiser today.

I really appreciate your sincerity! If you stick around long enough you´re bound to find out what traditionalists object to. To sum it up for you, we oppose the novelties introduced with Vatican II, both in the Liturgy and in Faith and Morals. The details are a bit complicated, so it´s best if you read up on other more specific threads in the Tradition Forum.

I love this sentence: “I am still finding my feet in Catholicism and trying to decide what sort of Catholic I am.” I love it because I identify with it. Up till a year or two ago that was me! I just couldn´t understand why there were so many “movements” and different groups or factions within the Church. I just wanted to be a good catholic; it all seemed so bewhildering! When I started learning about Tradition, things became clearer. I learned that the diversity the progressives champion is not a catholic quality. There should be ONE Church, ONE Faith, ONE authority. Diversity WITHIN unity is a good thing in the Church, but not when it goes beyond it. When I understood there had been a rupture in the Faith I realized the only way forward was to return to Tradition.

I don´t quite follow your comment on obedience. Of course the young in today´s society reject anything that asks for obedience, but that´s because they have been fed with a nihilistic, individualistic philosophy that denies any supreme Truth, and therefore any authority.

As a principle the younger generation rejects authority, which translates in practice into a rejection of the family (which cannot function without the father´s authority being respected), of true education (a teacher is now seen as an equal), of Divine Revelation, and of course of God Himself. All that remains is respect for civil authority, but this is kept in place by fear alone, not reverence or sense of duty.

I wouldn´t appeal to youngsters by talking about obedience. I would rather prefer to talk of fidelity. Traditionalists see themselves as remaining faithful to what has been passed down to us by our forefathers, what has been declared infallibly by the Lord Himself and the Popes, His representatives on Earth.

Fidelity is the key to the catastrophe that has occured in the Church these days, or rather INFIDELITY. Fidelity to Christ means fidelity to His Church, and that means fidelity to what She has ALWAYS taught, not what the post-Vatican II Popes have added, in that they have succeeded in watering down the eternal teachings of the Church that they should have defended.

 

[minkymurph]

Hi Minky,

I would be interested in your scriptural reasons for believing that Jesus did not intend for the Church to exercise authority as she does? There are many ideas going around about Jesus that have no basis in the four Gospels.

Jesus told his disciples to listen to the Pharisees but not to do as they do. Jesus did not say the teaching of the Pharisees was wrong, or Judaism was wrong. He pronounced the seven woes against them because they exercised their authority in an unloving way. I don’t think we can say the Church has always exercised her authority in a loving way. That is why I believe the Church has and does exercise her authority in a way Jesus did not intend.

Sometimes all I can see in organised religion is the absence of love and the desire to control others. It doesn’t matter how many theological 'i’s and 't’s you have dotted if you have no love. It’s not teachings I have a problem with or authority. It’s abuse of authority.

 

[minkymurph]

you need to separate the individuals from the Church. Individuals will always err, and sin. You are correct to say that the Church has been exploited by sinners. You should not put your faith in individuals but in the Church. The Church can not err because it is protected by the Holy Spirit.

Those individuals who were disobedient to Church teachings caused great harm and scandal to the faithful. This is not the fault of Church teaching, this is the fault of sinners.

Now I could go with this.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

Now I could go with this.

God bless you.

 

[minkymurph]

minkymurph,

There is a right religion and that religion is the Catholic Faith. You should not be a Catholic because it suits you but because you believe. It’s a scary thought for you to be a teacher of the Faith when it is something you lack or question so much.

I really wish people on these forums would stop making assumptions about me as a person. As far as the ‘scary thought goes,’ I think I can safely say that that scarier people than me have been RE teachers. I would guess you don’t actually think it’s scary but are using the phrase as a put down. On lacking faith, converting to Catholicism in the face of adversity, entering university to become an RE teacher are not the actions of someone who lacks faith. Last point, would you discourage questioning? What sort of an educator would I be if I told the pupils I teach not to question and just believe what they are told? Is that the sort of education you would want children to receive?

You are right in the sense that all religions have dimensions of truth. Not all are completely false. The Catholic Church though affirms that it is the fullness of truth while other religions and philosophies could only have an incomplete truth. This is something Chesterton thought and Father Barron (check out his videos on youtube) continues to teach. Even atheists can have truths in what they do because God works through all because He desires EVERYONE to be saved. As we are taught we can only be saved through His Son Jesus Christ. Knowing that and going against it does not save us. To object to this because you think its offensive to other religions is to object Christ’s own words. Your feelings come and go but Christ’s words are true and solid.

Don’t have any problems with this.

You seem to be against “organized religion.” Frankly, I’ve grown tired of this phrase as I do not understand why people are against organization. It reminds me of people against “the man” or authority. (not saying you feel this way) Would you rather have religion be disorganized? Anarchy simply does not work. The simple fact is God is organized. We see this with the organization of the angels in heaven, the complex but intricate world…the Church reflects this organization as well. God established the Church as a divine institution to be run by man. There are problems because of men but it is what Jesus established and wishes. Is this really something to argue? How can you be against organization when Jesus chose 12 men to help Him with His ministry? How can you be against the Apostles who chose to fill in their offices (successors) and as their oversight grew create more offices to oversee? If you have a problem with authority that you have a problem with much of the way the early Church was formed and is still organized today. People with this kind of thinking tend to be protestant but then again they are in a wash of belief when it comes to doctrine and faith. They begin to find the “church” that suits them. You show signs of this so I am worried.

Well, I wouldn’t be too worried because one conversion in a lifetime is enough and Protestant denominations never appealed to me. I rather try and work things out were I am. Perhaps you don’t understand why people are against organised religion because you are fortunate enough not to have not been harmed by it to the extent others have. Sometimes it takes people years to recover from the psychological damage inflicted by religion.

Lastly, traditionalists are firstly Catholic but choose to be identified as traditional because they value the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church such as Gregorian Chant, use of Latin, the Traditional Latin Mass, etc. These traditions were handed down to us and served the Church for centuries. Sadly, there are some people in the Church who don’t care about the traditions of the past today in modern times or feel indifferent. Traditionalist however do care and wish to keep it alive as it is our Catholic identity as Roman Catholics. The Holy Father has show his preference for tradition and we should follow his example. You may not claim to be a traditionalist, or a modernist or charismatic whatever, it doesn’t matter…but before anything Traditional Catholicism was the only Catholicism and to some of us is what we love and prefer to any other recent developments. Being a Catholic and being a traditionalist is not mutually exclusive.

Well I could understand that. I actually quite like the traditions you mention above. I just have little experience of them.

 

[minkymurph]

I really appreciate your sincerity! If you stick around long enough you´re bound to find out what traditionalists object to. To sum it up for you, we oppose the novelties introduced with Vatican II, both in the Liturgy and in Faith and Morals. The details are a bit complicated, so it´s best if you read up on other more specific threads in the Tradition Forum.

That’s very kind of you.

I

love this sentence: “I am still finding my feet in Catholicism and trying to decide what sort of Catholic I am.” I love it because I identify with it. Up till a year or two ago that was me! I just couldn´t understand why there were so many “movements” and different groups or factions within the Church. I just wanted to be a good catholic; it all seemed so bewhildering! When I started learning about Tradition, things became clearer. I learned that the diversity the progressives champion is not a catholic quality. There should be ONE Church, ONE Faith, ONE authority. Diversity WITHIN unity is a good thing in the Church, but not when it goes beyond it. When I understood there had been a rupture in the Faith I realized the only way forward was to return to Tradition.

I don´t quite follow your comment on obedience. Of course the young in today´s society reject anything that asks for obedience, but that´s because they have been fed with a nihilistic, individualistic philosophy that denies any supreme Truth, and therefore any authority.

Well, I just think it’s over-emphasized to the point were thinking for yourself is almost a mortal sin.

As a principle the younger generation rejects authority, which translates in practice into a rejection of the family (which cannot function without the father´s authority being respected), of true education (a teacher is now seen as an equal), of Divine Revelation, and of course of God Himself. All that remains is respect for civil authority, but this is kept in place by fear alone, not reverence or sense of duty.

We do need authority and leadership. It’s the abuse of authority I have a problem with and I’m not totally against the idea that respect should be earned and not demanded.

Fidelity is the key to the catastrophe that has occured in the Church these days, or rather INFIDELITY. Fidelity to Christ means fidelity to His Church, and that means fidelity to what She has ALWAYS taught, not what the post-Vatican II Popes have added, in that they have succeeded in watering down the eternal teachings of the Church that they should have defended.

I wouldn’t know of any additions made by Vatican II Popes. Too young to remember pre-Vatican II days!

 

[rben20]

I simply don’t believe the Catholic Church’s claim to have moral authority over me. Men crave power, and organizations seek to grow and perpetuate themselves. One has to exercise discernment (to use a favorite Catholic buzzword) to keep them in check.

The Church is mere men, no more infallible than you or me.

The Church does not have as much power as you think. Everything the Church provides is free and if you so wish to donate you can. People are free to leave the Church whenever they want and can choose to sin rather than follow the Church’s moral guide. The Church exists to preach Christ and His message in order to save souls. That is the business. While there are some bad clergy (they are human), MANY are selfless and give up so much for God, not for power.

What you fail to realize is the secular society has much more power over you than Church affairs. The Church can say something but if you do not submit your will it has no bearing over you. The state on the other hand tells you and you must do it. Not believing in God leaves you to be a product of the state…a sad sad reality. What’s worse is you becoming your own god, deciding what is good and bad based on your own feelings and judgements. I can’t help but remember the serpents words “…you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad.” Deciding what is good for yourself and what is right for you makes you a slave to your own desires and wishes. They will never satisfy you my friend. They will only hurt you and draw you away from Christ and His Church. True freedom comes from a trust in God.

The Church is composed of men but the Church itself is not worldly. It is a divine institution. That is the main distinction you fail to observe.

 

[rben20]

I really wish people on these forums would stop making assumptions about me as a person. As far as the ‘scary thought goes,’ I think I can safely say that that scarier people than me have been RE teachers. I would guess you don’t actually think it’s scary but are using the phrase as a put down. On lacking faith, converting to Catholicism in the face of adversity, entering university to become an RE teacher are not the actions of someone who lacks faith. Last point, would you discourage questioning? What sort of an educator would I be if I told the pupils I teach not to question and just believe what they are told? Is that the sort of education you would want children to receive?

…

Well, I wouldn’t be too worried because one conversion in a lifetime is enough and Protestant denominations never appealed to me. I rather try and work things out were I am. Perhaps you don’t understand why people are against organised religion because you are fortunate enough not to have not been harmed by it to the extent others have. Sometimes it takes people years to recover from the psychological damage inflicted by religion.

…

You have to understand when you post something like “There is no right religion” as your own personal theory and then say you are an educator that just seems dangerous. I can only assume from there then again I can’t understand or read you from being on the internet. I meant no harm. But yes I wouldn’t doubt there are people worse than you who are educating the next generation. (in all sincerity) Frankly, there is nothing wrong with asking questions but I do have a problem when people start questioning things that are non-debatable. The theology and philosophy of the Church is not something we can experiment on or rethink in order to get right…especially something like all religions are equal or Jesus is not divine for example. These are not up for debate. Something like why is abortion wrong is much more open to discussion than no religion is right. Don’t you see the difference? Maybe if you wrote your position better it would make more sense and not look like what I think it is…a wash of feelings and emotions.

 

[minkymurph]

You have to understand when you post something like “There is no right religion” as your own personal theory and then say you are an educator that just seems dangerous. I can only assume from there then again I can’t understand or read you from being on the internet. I meant no harm. But yes I wouldn’t doubt there are people worse than you who are educating the next generation. (in all sincerity) Frankly, there is nothing wrong with asking questions but I do have a problem when people start questioning things that are non-debatable. The theology and philosophy of the Church is not something we can experiment on or rethink in order to get right…especially something like all religions are equal or Jesus is not divine for example. These are not up for debate. Something like why is abortion wrong is much more open to discussion than no religion is right. Don’t you see the difference? Maybe if you wrote your position better it would make more sense and not look like what I think it is…a wash of feelings and emotions.

First I would say that the classroom is not the forum to voice personal theories. I did not become an educator because I wanted to pass my personal theories on to others. I can have them, but cannot teach them.

Sometimes people are a wash of feelings and emotions and it’s a very necessary element of faith development. It’s called being human and I wouldn’t apologize for that. Again, as an educator, the classroom is not the forum to be a wash of feelings and emotions. The internet is a forum and it offers anonymity.

I’ll tell you exactly what my position is. People who leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses, as I did, very often loose faith in organised religion and never recover. When I see the same attitudes and desire to control others in the Catholic Church, it makes me wonder if in that sense, religions are all the same and should be treated with a degree of mistrust and skepticism concerning the intentions of those in positions of power.

 

[mdrummer5]

He actually did teach that if you reject Him the consequences are damnation.

Here’s the problem with that.

Say you have a 30 year old who grew up knowing nothing but a different faith. Then a missionary comes along and says… “What you believe is wrong, you need to accept Jesus Christ who died 2000 years ago for mankind as your Lord and Savior or you will be condemned to Hell”. It is ABSOLUTELY unrealistic to expect that individual to just say “oh sure, I’ll glaldy forget what I’ve believed wholeheartedly my entire life and believe what you’ve told me, THANKS! ”

I refuse to believe that God, the God who loves unconditionally and forgives all would condemn such a person.

Consider the flip side of that. Most here are very devout in their faith. Do you not disregard what someone else tells you is the “correct” faith when it contradicts yours? Of course you do. Even though there is no hard evidence you have faith, that’s why it’s called faith.

 

[Little_Mary]

I’m far from what many here would consider a traditionalist, but I sympathize with your situation. Many times I have been let down by people who I thought would have been faithful to the faith, yet they are not there when its about the faith. I’ve seen many Catholics marginalize the Church. But the problem is not the Church itself, but the people. Always believe that God is there for you even though others are not. Do not blame the Church for the sins of the few.

Highlighted in red, above, is what I was just about to post. Focus on your relationship with God and receiving His Grace through the sacraments. Don’t worry about everybody else.