There is no 'right' religion

[minkymurph]

Here’s the problem with that.

Say you have a 30 year old who grew up knowing nothing but a different faith. Then a missionary comes along and says… “What you believe is wrong, you need to accept Jesus Christ who died 2000 years ago for mankind as your Lord and Savior or you will be condemned to Hell”. It is ABSOLUTELY unrealistic to expect that individual to just say “oh sure, I’ll glaldy forget what I’ve believed wholeheartedly my entire life and believe what you’ve told me, THANKS! ”

I refuse to believe that God, the God who loves unconditionally and forgives all would condemn such a person.

Consider the flip side of that. Most here are very devout in their faith. Do you not disregard what someone else tells you is the “correct” faith when it contradicts yours? Of course you do. Even though there is no hard evidence you have faith, that’s why it’s called faith.

I would agree with this. If we could prove everything we would not need faith. On this point I would also say, if someone has got the ‘right’ religion but does not have love, and someone has the ‘wrong’ religion and has love, do both go to Hell, or do both go to Heaven and why?

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

Jesus must have created His Church for a reason. I find it much easier and peaceful to trust the Church’s teaching on these matters instead of relying on my own ability to reason or other people’s opinions.

 

[zab]

Can you understand why I think people who cause someone to loose faith because of their lack of compassion, understanding and love is more guilty than the person who loosed faith in organised religion?

:sad_yes: Please hang in there.

 

[Lamafacaja]

I don’t believe I said in any of my posts these truth’s are a private revelation of mine.

Then where are they from?

However, who told me they were truth’s and when?

That’s what I’m asking.

Did I first come to believe Catholicism was the right religion and then consider what they believed?

You tell me.

Would you say the only reason I believe in these truths is because I was told to?

Well, is it?

If you cannot answer these questions, your statement that I believe these truth’s because I was told to is an assumption.

Somebody told them to you. You didn’t pull them out of a hat.

You say I don’t trust the Church.

You said you’d lost faith in organized religion.

Define the term Church. When you use the term Church what do you mean by it?

Baltimore Catechism says that “The Church is the congregation of all those who profess the faith of Christ, partake of the same Sacraments, and are governed by their lawful pastors under one visible head.”

“Our Holy Father the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, is the Vicar of Christ on earth and the visible Head of the Church.”

“The Pope, the Bishop of Rome, is the visible Head of the Church because he is the successor of St. Peter, whom Christ made the chief of the Apostles and the visible Head of the Church.”

“The successors of the other Apostles are the bishops of the Holy Catholic Church.”

If the Sacraments are true I don’t have to trust the person who is telling it is true. It’s perfectly feasible for an untrustworthy person to on occasion, tell you something that is true.

Well that depends… True with regard to what? Who are we talking about here? The councils? Church historians? The bible? Defined Doctrines? These most certainly come from God (via persons) and need to be true.

I think you would agree that loosing faith in people is not a reason to convert to another faith. The people in that religion probably won’t be any better.

What I’m trying to say is the teachings of the Church are true.

 

[minkymurph]

Then where are they from?

The asked the questions I did to demonstrate you as you could not know the answers, you cannot presume I believe what I do because I was told to.

Believe what you want, but I would guess the only answer you want to hear is the Catholic Church. Of course I could be wrong.

Somebody told them to you. You didn’t pull them out of a hat.

I don’t believe I said in any of my post I had or simply thought them up myself

You said you’d lost faith in organized religion.

As institutions yes, and another post of mine explains why. Loss of faith in organised religion does not amount to rejecting teachings we believe to be true. There are lots of people who believe in God and that Christ died for us but don’t belong to a Church because their experience of organised religion has left them scarred. Those who scarred them are more responsible than the person who looses faith. Jesus said they might as well have a millstone placed around their neck and be thrown into the sea. I do believe his words also contained a certain empathy for those who were ‘skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd,’ The Jews did not have the ‘wrong’ religion, but they had bad shepherds who organized religion for their own ends.

What I’m trying to say is the teachings of the Church are true.

I think I’ve covered this above.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I have been through a lot of questioning in the process of becoming Catholic, and a lot of questioning on becoming Catholic. I now have a theory. I don’t believe any religion is ‘right.’ There is no such thing as the ‘right’ religion. Why am I Catholic? I believe Christ was the Incarnate God, I believe he rose body and soul to heaven, I believe he somehow comes to us in the seven sacraments of the Church but I can’t provide irrevocable proof as to how he does it. I am not a creationist, I accept evolution. I don’t believe this changes the belief God created us. I accept historical criticism because again, it doesn’t change anything, it just gives us greater understanding of the Catholic faith. I refuse to be pigeon holed. I am not a moderneist, I am not a traditionalist. I am Catholic.

Why am I posting? I don’t like organised religion. I have certain affection for atheists as a consequence. My eldest child recently received his first Holy Communion. Who was there? My friend who is an atheist. Not because it was a great religious experience. He came because he is my friend and like an uncle to my kids. Their Godparents were too busy to come. I hear time and time again on traditionalist forums about obedience and ‘we are the true Church.’ Can any traditionalists out there understand if someone causes you to loose faith, they are more guilty than the person who looses faith and it’s not all about unquestioning obedience? I believe the Pope has a unique role in guiding the Church. Is he always right? I don’t think so. Does that mean I don’t believe what the Catholic Church teaches? No. Does it not take more faith to say, ‘I’m not sure but this is what I believe?’

I have not come on this forum to criticize traditionalists. I know nothing of the Church prior to Vatican II and I have no idea what it has been like to deal with the changes and controversies. I have come on this forum to ask traditionalists, can they understand what it is like to completely loose faith in organised religion but not God? Can you understand why I think people who cause someone to loose faith because of their lack of compassion, understanding and love is more guilty than the person who loosed faith in organised religion?

The problem I have with your entire statement is the blame game. Why is it always someone elses fault if you have lost faith? I dont say this in a mean spirited way. You have taken considerable time to try to explain how you dislike “organized religion” (I Wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that) But is it Organized Religion you dislike or is it the requirement of The Works you dislike. As St James said in Scripture Faith without works is dead. A Catholic is responsible for his own soul and responsible not to his fellow man for HIS soul but to GOD. In addition and in society - a Catholic is an example to those he comes into contact with. You say you have an atheist friend. Is he a close friend , one you care about. What if you saw him walking out into traffic not paying attention and a car was coming would you say nothing? Well judgement day is coming - be it General or Particular - one day it will come and whether you like organized religion or not - It will come.

I know a man who was confused like you. He died last week. His funeral is Friday. He was a police officer who retired at age 52. Saw a lot of bad things in his life and was disillusioned. He got contradicting information from many sources. But one day he decided that he was going to pray and pray in earnest for the answers to his questions. Not just for show but really really pray in total honesty with GOD. He began to pray the Rosary and he prayed 15 Decades of the Holy Rosary every day for the rest of his life.

At his death - not only was he was a devout Catholic but in addition he had a Priest by his bedside at the moment of death and recieved the last rites shortly before.

Our faith has its ups and downs for alll of us. But if we really want to save our soul and the souls of others - we have to learn to pray. Show me someone who prays , i’ll show you someone who loves GOD.

 

[rben20]

…

I’ll tell you exactly what my position is. People who leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses, as I did, very often loose faith in organised religion and never recover. When I see the same attitudes and desire to control others in the Catholic Church, it makes me wonder if in that sense, religions are all the same and should be treated with a degree of mistrust and skepticism concerning the intentions of those in positions of power.

Now I see where you are coming from! JV folk I talk to are very skeptical when out but completely wrapped up when “in” in my experience. Still don’t give up. You don’t even have to teach. First learn the faith and take it day by day. If you truly believe in God than you can believe He can get you out of your situation through time. Maybe you just need that time for yourself and God alone.

 

[minkymurph]

The problem I have with your entire statement is the blame game.

It’s much more serious than a blame game. People can be psychologically scarred and need the help of professionals, sometimes for years to come to terms with their loss of faith in organised religion. I think that’s a lot more serious than ‘it’s not my fault it was you.’

Why is it always someone elses fault if you have lost faith

? I dont say this in a mean spirited way. You have taken considerable time to try to explain how you dislike “organized religion” (I Wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that) But is it Organized Religion you dislike or is it the requirement of The Works you dislike.

It’s the lack of works I have a problem with.

You say you have an atheist friend. Is he a close friend , one you care about. What if you saw him walking out into traffic not paying attention and a car was coming would you say nothing? Well judgement day is coming - be it General or Particular - one day it will come and whether you like organized religion or not - It will come.

I have several friends who are atheists. Some are close, some are not. Repeatedly telling someone a car is coming will not make someone get out of the way if they have no desire to do so. In addition, telling an atheist they should believe in God in order to avoid Hell is not a very persuasive argument. Is the only reason we believe in God future reward and escape from eternal punishment? I think there are more convincing arguments.

I know a man who was confused like you. He died last week. His funeral is Friday. He was a police officer who retired at age 52. Saw a lot of bad things in his life and was disillusioned. He got contradicting information from many sources. But one day he decided that he was going to pray and pray in earnest for the answers to his questions. Not just for show but really really pray in total honesty with GOD. He began to pray the Rosary and he prayed 15 Decades of the Holy Rosary every day for the rest of his life.

At his death - not only was he was a devout Catholic but in addition he had a Priest by his bedside at the moment of death and recieved the last rites shortly before.

Our faith has its ups and downs for alll of us. But if we really want to save our soul and the souls of others - we have to learn to pray. Show me someone who prays , i’ll show you someone who loves GOD.

I agree. Problem is you don’t have to belong to an organised religion to pray.

 

[minkymurph]

Now I see where you are coming from! JV folk I talk to are very skeptical when out but completely wrapped up when “in” in my experience. Still don’t give up. You don’t even have to teach. First learn the faith and take it day by day. If you truly believe in God than you can believe He can get you out of your situation through time. Maybe you just need that time for yourself and God alone.

I won’t give up on becoming a teacher. I also teach history. Maybe it is a JW thing in that it leaves you skeptical. I’ve been put off a bit because I attend a Catholic University and I have never came across people who are so cold, detached, authoritarian, uncompromising and inflexible.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Church does not have as much power as you think. Everything the Church provides is free and if you so wish to donate you can. People are free to leave the Church whenever they want and can choose to sin rather than follow the Church’s moral guide. The Church exists to preach Christ and His message in order to save souls. That is the business. While there are some bad clergy (they are human), MANY are selfless and give up so much for God, not for power.

What you fail to realize is the secular society has much more power over you than Church affairs. The Church can say something but if you do not submit your will it has no bearing over you. The state on the other hand tells you and you must do it. Not believing in God leaves you to be a product of the state…a sad sad reality. What’s worse is you becoming your own god, deciding what is good and bad based on your own feelings and judgements. I can’t help but remember the serpents words “…you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad.” Deciding what is good for yourself and what is right for you makes you a slave to your own desires and wishes. They will never satisfy you my friend. They will only hurt you and draw you away from Christ and His Church. True freedom comes from a trust in God.

The Church is composed of men but the Church itself is not worldly. It is a divine institution. That is the main distinction you fail to observe.

I’m still miffed by those who accuse the Church of grabbing power through conversion of people. I can’t see a connection. For example, if everyone doesn’t use contraceptives, what does the Church gain there? But for every pro-contraception law, the pharmaceutical companies make millions and guess who’s throwing money at lobbyists? How about abortion? Does the Church even make money off adoptions? How about being faithful to your wife? Where’s the money there? If at that, the Church would make more money if people divorce and keep remarrying in the Church, more weddings, more moolah. So where’s the power grab or money grab there?

 

[minkymurph]

:sad_yes: Please hang in there.

It actually has helped coming on this forum. I feel more at peace now. | also have no intension of being a ‘look at what others did to me’ victim. I just find it so hard to trust.

 

[valentino]

it helps to know something about the church prior to vantican 2

 

[santodomingo]

That’s very kind of you.

I wouldn’t know of any additions made by Vatican II Popes. Too young to remember pre-Vatican II days!

How old do you think I am? I was born in 1975. Actually, most of the fellow catholics I know who would call themselves traditionalists were born AFTER the Second Vatican Council.

You don´t need to personally remember what it was like before VII in order to appreciate there was a rupture in the Faith. You simply need to read the pre-VII encyclicals and contrast them with the politik babble we get nowadays. Even more astonishing than the contrast in content is the contrast in style. In pre-VII days the Popes called a spade a spade (a healthy habbit IMO); nowadays you practically need a room full of theologians in order to understand what the Pope means, if he means anything at all.

To start with, you could read Mortalium Animos by Pius XI. Here´s a link:
papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

Then read Pascendi, by St. Pius X.
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html

If you´re feeling lost about being catholic, or you want to find out more about traditional catholicism, this web site is great: www.fisheaters.com

Hope that helps. God bless you.

 

[minkymurph]

How old do you think I am? I was born in 1975. Actually, most of the fellow catholics I know who would call themselves traditionalists were born AFTER the Second Vatican Council.

You don´t need to personally remember what it was like before VII in order to appreciate there was a rupture in the Faith. You simply need to read the pre-VII encyclicals and contrast them with the politik babble we get nowadays. Even more astonishing than the contrast in content is the contrast in style. In pre-VII days the Popes called a spade a spade (a healthy habbit IMO); nowadays you practically need a room full of theologians in order to understand what the Pope means, if he means anything at all.

To start with, you could read Mortalium Animos by Pius XI. Here´s a link:
papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

Then read Pascendi, by St. Pius X.
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html

If you´re feeling lost about being catholic, or you want to find out more about traditional catholicism, this web site is great: www.fisheaters.com

Hope that helps. God bless you.

My comment wasn’t directed at any individual. It was just a joke.

 

[santodomingo]

My comment wasn’t directed at any individual. It was just a joke.

OK, my sense of humour sometimes deserts me.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

Thank you for sharing two wonderful websites.

As Catholics I believe we need to reference the Church as much as possible. Our Protestant brethren don’t have this resource, have to make decisions on their own, thus there are so many denominations. Although I’m new here, already I have seen people making definitive statements which are factually wrong. This is dangerous territory as that wrongful advice could put someone into Hell. I believe that could make you an accessory to their sin as well.

I too have noticed a change in style in the writings of pre and post Second Vatican Council popes. Although Benedict XVI can often tell it like it is too (Regansburg). Just compare our current Catechesim with Trent. Trent reads like this: Do this - and your excommunicated. Do that - same thing. Whereas our current catechesim requires discernment. Does anyone else find that?

Minky, your inquiry tells me you are on the right path. Keep asking questions, but I suggest keep a careful eye on the answers you receive from anonymous people in chatrooms. May I suggest speaking to a priest? May God bless you on your journey and peace be with you.

How old do you think I am? I was born in 1975. Actually, most of the fellow catholics I know who would call themselves traditionalists were born AFTER the Second Vatican Council.

You don´t need to personally remember what it was like before VII in order to appreciate there was a rupture in the Faith. You simply need to read the pre-VII encyclicals and contrast them with the politik babble we get nowadays. Even more astonishing than the contrast in content is the contrast in style. In pre-VII days the Popes called a spade a spade (a healthy habbit IMO); nowadays you practically need a room full of theologians in order to understand what the Pope means, if he means anything at all.

To start with, you could read Mortalium Animos by Pius XI. Here´s a link:
papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

Then read Pascendi, by St. Pius X.
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html

If you´re feeling lost about being catholic, or you want to find out more about traditional catholicism, this web site is great: www.fisheaters.com

Hope that helps. God bless you.

 

[balt_orioles54]

It actually has helped coming on this forum. I feel more at peace now. | also have no intension of being a ‘look at what others did to me’ victim. I just find it so hard to trust.

Minkymurph - before you give up completely on coming home to the church, I suggest you read G.K. Chesterton’s “The Everlasting Man” and “Orthodoxy.” G.K. had a hand in converting C.S. Lewis of all people.

For the great Gaels of Ireland
Are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry,
And all their songs are sad.



:shamrock2:

brianakira.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/brianakira-seal-trinity-shamrock.jpg

 

[Joan1969]

Jesus told his disciples to listen to the Pharisees but not to do as they do. Jesus did not say the teaching of the Pharisees was wrong, or Judaism was wrong. He pronounced the seven woes against them because they exercised their authority in an unloving way. I don’t think we can say the Church has always exercised her authority in a loving way. That is why I believe the Church has and does exercise her authority in a way Jesus did not intend.

Sometimes all I can see in organised religion is the absence of love and the desire to control others. It doesn’t matter how many theological 'i’s and 't’s you have dotted if you have no love. It’s not teachings I have a problem with or authority. It’s abuse of authority.

Hi Minky,

If I understand my history correctly, the Pharisees were more of a spiritual movement; it would have been the Saducees who exercised the objective authority. It is noteworthy that He did tell people to continue to respect the authority of the time, even though it was very corrupt and on the brink of being replaced by the Church.

There is no comparison between the corrupted leadership of Jesus’ time and our own leadership. There are no priests or bishops who would conspire to have someone crucified. I know a number of priests, and may well disagree with how many of them exercise their authority, but I know none who (IMO) has “no love”, or who is an abusive, controlling individual. I won’t say it never happens, but it is the exception. I see in some Catholics an unrealistic perfectionism; unless all priests and bishops are saints they are going to complain or distance themselves from the Church. I don’t understand the attitude. Anyway, I have enough to do making myself into a saint.

God Bless,
Joan

 

[minkymurph]

Thank you for sharing two wonderful websites.

As Catholics I believe we need to reference the Church as much as possible. Our Protestant brethren don’t have this resource, have to make decisions on their own, thus there are so many denominations. Although I’m new here, already I have seen people making definitive statements which are factually wrong. This is dangerous territory as that wrongful advice could put someone into Hell. I believe that could make you an accessory to their sin as well.

I too have noticed a change in style in the writings of pre and post Second Vatican Council popes. Although Benedict XVI can often tell it like it is too (Regansburg). Just compare our current Catechesim with Trent. Trent reads like this: Do this - and your excommunicated. Do that - same thing. Whereas our current catechesim requires discernment. Does anyone else find that?

Minky, your inquiry tells me you are on the right path. Keep asking questions, but I suggest keep a careful eye on the answers you receive from anonymous people in chatrooms. May I suggest speaking to a priest? May God bless you on your journey and peace be with you.

It’s funny you should say that. Four of my lecturers are priests and people on these chatrooms have told me they are wrong.

 

[minkymurph]

Minkymurph - before you give up completely on coming home to the church, I suggest you read G.K. Chesterton’s “The Everlasting Man” and “Orthodoxy.” G.K. had a hand in converting C.S. Lewis of all people.

For the great Gaels of Ireland
Are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry,
And all their songs are sad.



:shamrock2:

brianakira.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/brianakira-seal-trinity-shamrock.jpg

This is something I would read. Particularly if he had a hand in converting CS Lewis. I grew up very near were CS Lewis was born and grew up.