There is no "Trinity" and Jesus Christ is not God

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According to Jehovah’s Witnesses who use the Bible, the Trinity is a false doctrine. This article from the Watchtower’s offical website clearly show they use the Bible to support their position:
watchtower.org/e/ti/article_01.htm
Of course if they don’t believe in the Trinity, then they don’t believe that Jesus Christ is God (they use the Bible to support their position on this as well):
watchtower.org/e/20050422/article_02.htm

Methodists, who also use the Bible to support their religion, believe in the Trinity and that Jesus Christ is the One True God:

*"Article I—Of Faith in the Holy Trinity

There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body or parts, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things, both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there are three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."* (From the "Articles of Religion of the Methodist Church I-IV archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1817)

In the very next article of their faith, Methodists, who use the Bible as the foundation of their religion, state that they believe the following:

*"Article II—Of the Word, or Son of God, Who Was Made Very Man

The Son, who is the Word of the Father, the very and eternal God, of one substance with the Father, took man’s nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin; so that two whole and perfect natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one person, never to be divided; whereof is one Christ, very God and very Man, who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men.* (From the “Articles of Religion of the Methodist Church I-IV” archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1817)

Mormons who use the Bible to support their beliefs (as well as the Book of Mormon) say this about God:

“God has a body that looks like yours, though His body is immortal, perfected, and has a glory beyond description.” (From “God is your Loving Heavenly Father,” mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/god-is-your-loving-heavenly-father)

To be saved, according to Mormons who use the Bible to support their beliefs, you must do the following:

*"If you follow His example as closely as possible, you will not only find joy in your life, but you will someday return to live with Him and your Father in Heaven. Specifically, you are to:

Have faith in Him ( Mark 11:22–24).
Repent of your sins ( Acts 2:38).
Receive baptism ( John 3:3–6), the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the other ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Keep His commandments ( John 14:15)."* (From “Jesus Christ: Our Savior,” mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/jesus-christ-our-savior/jesus-christ)

According to Southern Baptists, who also use the Bible to support their beliefs, belief in Jesus Christ, accepting Him as your personal Saviour and repentance are all you need to be saved. Baptism is not neccessary for salvation but rather is an act of “obedience” and is purely “symbolic”:

*"IV. Salvation

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour…there is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.
"* (From the “Baptist Faith and Message,” sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp)

*"VII. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer’s faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer’s death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus."* (From the “Baptist Faith and Message,” sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp)

Lutherans, who also use the Bible as the foundation of their faith, baptise infants and believe that by doing so, God creates faith in the baby’s heart:

“Although we do not claim to understand how this happens or how it is possible, we believe (because of what the Bible says about baptism) that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant.” (lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2608)

In the same article, it is stated that baptism is not purely symbolic, since it is called one of the “miraculous means of grace.”

INFANT baptism? Not valid according to Seventh-Day Adventists, who also use the Bible to support their beliefs:

“Because infants and little children cannot experience conversion, they do not qualify for baptism.” (From “Seventh-Day Adventists Believe…Baptism,” sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-14.htm)
 
By the way, Methodists, Pentecostals, Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Non-denoms, Church of Christ members, who use the Bible to support their beliefs, the Seventh-Day Adventists who use the Bible to support THEIR beliefs say you’ve got it all wrong about what day to worship on. It’s SATURDAY not Sunday:

“The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.” (From “Fundamental Beliefs,” adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html)

They’re ALL right. They’re ALL guided by the Holy Spirit. They’ve ALL intrepreted the Bible correctly. All of those contradictions are the Truth of God, right?
 
Well, all of those contradictions are based on INTERPRETATIONS of the Word of God.

So the obvious conclusion to draw from all this is that the Bible needs the very Church that ratified it to be the guide in how it is interpreted.

But, you’ve probably realized that already, which is why you are a “future Catholic.” 🙂
 
Keep in mind, the JW’s use a bible, not the bible. Their translation is so far off from what’s traditionally been accepted that it’s now wonder they differ so much. They will swear up and down they will use whatever bible anyone wants to use and still prove their doctrine, but it’s just simply not the case if you know where to go.
 
=mariahloves;6331687They’re ALL right. They’re ALL guided by the Holy Spirit. They’ve ALL intrepreted the Bible correctly. All of those contradictions are the Truth of God, right?
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And the Catholic Church (those in communion with the Bishop of Rome), Orthodoxy, PNCC, and other Old Catholics, all claim to guided by Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition, are not in communion with each other because they disagree on Transubstantiation, or the universal jurisdiction of the pope, or the Immaculate Conception, or the infallibility of the pope (when speaking ex cathedra).

And the schism between Rome and Orthodoxy is twice as old as that of the division in the western Church.

And all of these contradictions (based in Scripture and Tradition) are the Truth of God, too. Right?

Jon

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention SSPX, and the sedevacantists.
 
JonNC said:
And the Catholic Church (those in communion with the Bishop of Rome), Orthodoxy, PNCC, and other Old Catholics, all claim to guided by Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition, are not in communion with each other because they disagree on Transubstantiation, or the universal jurisdiction of the pope, or the Immaculate Conception, or the infallibility of the pope (when speaking ex cathedra).

And the schism between Rome and Orthodoxy is twice as old as that of the division in the western Church.

And all of these contradictions (based in Scripture and Tradition) are the Truth of God, too. Right?
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Yes, Jon. It’s ONLY sola Scriptura that causes divisions!

Nice seeing you again, bro 🙂 👍
 
mariahloves said:
According to Jehovah’s Witnesses who use the Bible, the Trinity is a false doctrine. This article from the Watchtower’s offical website clearly show they use the Bible to support their position:
watchtower.org/e/ti/article_01.htm
Of course if they don’t believe in the Trinity, then they don’t believe that Jesus Christ is God (they use the Bible to support their position on this as well):
watchtower.org/e/20050422/article_02.htm

Methodists, who also use the Bible to support their religion, believe in the Trinity and that Jesus Christ is the One True God:

*"Article I—Of Faith in the Holy Trinity

There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body or parts*, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things, both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there are three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." (From the "Articles of Religion of the Methodist Church I-IV archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1817)

In the very next article of their faith, Methodists, who use the Bible as the foundation of their religion, state that they believe the following:

*"Article II—Of the Word, or Son of God, Who Was Made Very Man

The Son, who is the Word of the Father, the very and eternal God, of one substance with the Father, took man’s nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin; so that two whole and perfect natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one person, never to be divided; whereof is one Christ, very God and very Man, who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men.* (From the “Articles of Religion of the Methodist Church I-IV” archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1817)

Mormons who use the Bible to support their beliefs (as well as the Book of Mormon) say this about God:

"God has a body that looks like yours, though His body is immortal, perfected, and has a glory beyond description." (From “God is your Loving Heavenly Father,” mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/god-is-your-loving-heavenly-father)

To be saved, according to Mormons who use the Bible to support their beliefs, you must do the following:

*"If you follow His example as closely as possible, you will not only find joy in your life, but you will someday return to live with Him and your Father in Heaven. Specifically, you are to:

Have faith in Him ( Mark 11:22–24).
Repent of your sins ( Acts 2:38).
Receive baptism ( John 3:3–6), the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the other ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Keep His commandments ( John 14:15)."* (From “Jesus Christ: Our Savior,” mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/jesus-christ-our-savior/jesus-christ)

According to Southern Baptists, who also use the Bible to support their beliefs, belief in Jesus Christ, accepting Him as your personal Saviour and repentance are all you need to be saved. Baptism is not neccessary for salvation but rather is an act of “obedience” and is purely “symbolic”:

*"IV. Salvation

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour…there is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.
"* (From the “Baptist Faith and Message,” sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp)

*"VII. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer’s faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer’s death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus."* (From the “Baptist Faith and Message,” sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp)

Lutherans, who also use the Bible as the foundation of their faith, baptise infants and believe that by doing so, God creates faith in the baby’s heart:

“Although we do not claim to understand how this happens or how it is possible, we believe (because of what the Bible says about baptism) that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant.” (lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2608)

In the same article, it is stated that baptism is not purely symbolic, since it is called one of the “miraculous means of grace.”

INFANT baptism? Not valid according to Seventh-Day Adventists, who also use the Bible to support their beliefs:

“Because infants and little children cannot experience conversion, they do not qualify for baptism.” (From “Seventh-Day Adventists Believe…Baptism,” sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-14.htm)
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You need to see what Bible the JW are using the JW have the most corrupt bible in the world, you must check all bible to see if is a Chreistian or Cathloic bible, the bible that the JW said in wrong read John 1;1
 
mariahloves said:
According to Jehovah’s Witnesses who use the Bible, the Trinity is a false doctrine. This article from the Watchtower’s offical website clearly show they use the Bible to support their position:
watchtower.org/e/ti/article_01.htm
Of course if they don’t believe in the Trinity, then they don’t believe that Jesus Christ is God (they use the Bible to support their position on this as well):
watchtower.org/e/20050422/article_02.htm

Methodists, who also use the Bible to support their religion, believe in the Trinity and that Jesus Christ is the One True God:

"Article I—Of Faith in the Holy Trinity

There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body or parts, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things, both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there are three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." (From the "Articles of Religion of the Methodist Church I-IV archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1817)

In the very next article of their faith, Methodists, who use the Bible as the foundation of their religion, state that they believe the following:

"Article II—Of the Word, or Son of God, Who Was Made Very Man

The Son, who is the Word of the Father, the very and eternal God, of one substance with the Father, took man’s nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin; so that two whole and perfect natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one person, never to be divided; whereof is one Christ, very God and very Man, who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men. (From the “Articles of Religion of the Methodist Church I-IV” archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1817)

Mormons who use the Bible to support their beliefs (as well as the Book of Mormon) say this about God:

"God has a body that looks like yours, though His body is immortal, perfected, and has a glory beyond description." (From “God is your Loving Heavenly Father,” mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/god-is-your-loving-heavenly-father)

To be saved, according to Mormons who use the Bible to support their beliefs, you must do the following:

*"If you follow His example as closely as possible, you will not only find joy in your life, but you will someday return to live with Him and your Father in Heaven. Specifically, you are to: *

*Have faith in Him ( Mark 11:22–24). *
*Repent of your sins ( Acts 2:38). *
*Receive baptism ( John 3:3–6), the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the other ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. *
Keep His commandments ( John 14:15)." (From “Jesus Christ: Our Savior,” mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/jesus-christ-our-savior/jesus-christ)

According to Southern Baptists, who also use the Bible to support their beliefs, belief in Jesus Christ, accepting Him as your personal Saviour and repentance are all you need to be saved. Baptism is not neccessary for salvation but rather is an act of “obedience” and is purely “symbolic”:

"IV. Salvation

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour…there is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.
" (From the “Baptist Faith and Message,” sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp)

"VII. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer’s faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer’s death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus." (From the “Baptist Faith and Message,” sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp)

Lutherans, who also use the Bible as the foundation of their faith, baptise infants and believe that by doing so, God creates faith in the baby’s heart:

“Although we do not claim to understand how this happens or how it is possible, we believe (because of what the Bible says about baptism) that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant.” (lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2608)

In the same article, it is stated that baptism is not purely symbolic, since it is called one of the “miraculous means of grace.”

INFANT baptism? Not valid according to Seventh-Day Adventists, who also use the Bible to support their beliefs:

“Because infants and little children cannot experience conversion, they do not qualify for baptism.” (From “Seventh-Day Adventists Believe…Baptism,” sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-14.htm)
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We Catholics have the Magisterium who are guided by the Holy Spirit. Even though there are East and West Catholic communities we believe the same dogma. No so with all the Protestant denominations. They seem to follow the teachings of men who decide what is the truth of the bible. And congregations follow these men because they like what they hear.

Thank God for the teaching and the truth of the Magisterium.
The JW bible is a fiction created by the WT to go along with what the believe. Again following mortal man.

They believe in 2 gods. God the Almighty and Jesus the Mighty . Go figure.
 
JeanneH said:
We Catholics have the Magisterium who are guided by the Holy Spirit. Even though there are East and West Catholic communities we believe the same dogma.
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I am sorry, Jeanne, that East and West share the same dogma and theology is simply not the case. In Orthodox opinion:
  1. The Orthodox Church of the East is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church confessed in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. All other churches are separated from by schism, heresy, or both, including the Roman Catholic Church.
  2. Jesus Christ, as Son of God is divine by nature, as born of the Virgin Mary, True Man by nature, alone is the head of the Church. No hierarch, no bishop, no matter how exalted, is the earthly head of the Church, since Jesus Christ’s headship is enough.
  3. All bishops are equal in their power and jurisdiction. Precedence between bishops is a matter of canonical and therefore of human, not divine law. “Primacies” of honor or even jurisdiction of one bishop over many is a matter of ecclesiastical law, and dependent bishops need to give their consent to such subordination in synod assembled.
  4. The Church is a communion of churches conciliar in nature; it is not a “perfect society” arranged as a pyramid with a single monarchical hierarch on top. As such, the Orthodox Church gives priority to the first Seven Ecumenical Councils as having precedent in defining the nature of Christian belief, the nature and structure of the Church, and the relationship between the Church and secular government, as well as the continuation of synodal government throughout their churches to this day.
  5. Outside of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, the Orthodox Church receives with veneration various other regional synods and councils as authoritative, but these are all of various national churches, and always secondary in authority to the first seven. They do not hold the other 14 Western Councils as having ecumenical authority.
  6. Orthodox Christians do not define “authority” in quite the same way the Catholic Church would define it in terms of powers, jurisdictions, prerogatives and their interrelationships. Orthodox Christian would say that “authority” is inimical to Love and in this sense, only agape is the one firm criterion to delimit rights and responsibilities within the Church.
  7. The Orthodox Church holds an anthropology different from that of the Catholic Church. This is because the Orthodox Church does not hold a forensic view of Original Sin, that is, they hold that the sin of Adam did not transmit an intrinsic, “guilt” to his descendants. “Ancestral Sin,” as they would call it, transmitted what may be termed as a “genetic predisposition” to sin, but not a juridical declaration from God that such-a-one is “born in sin.” Hyper-Augustinianism, Catholic, Lutheran, and Reformed, is impossible in Orthodox anthropology because according to the Orthodox, man is still essentially good, despite his propensity to sin. By the way, even what Catholics would consider a “healthy Augustinianism” would be looked at with suspicion by most Orthodox authorities. Many trace “the fall” of the Latin Church to the adoption of St. Augustine as the West’s foremost theological authority for 1,000 years prior to St. Thomas Aquinas. The best evaluations of St. Augustine in the Orthodox Church see him as holy, well-meaning, but “heterodox” in many important details, starting with his anthropology.
  8. Since no “forensic guilt” is transmitted genetically through “Original Sin,” the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of our Blessed Mother is considered superfluous. She had no need for such an exception because there was nothing to exempt her from in the first place. Of course, Mary is Theotokos (“God-bearer”), Panagia (“All-Holy”) and proclaimed in every Liturgy as “more honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim,” but her sanctification is spoken about more in terms of a special, unique, total, and gratuitous bestowing and subsequent indwelling of the Spirit in her, without the need of “applying the merits of the atonement” of Christ to her at the moment of conception, in order to remove a non-existent forensic guilt from her soul, as the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception would have it. Although the Orthodox believe in her Assumption, they deny that any individual hierarch has any power to singly and unilaterally define it as a dogma binding on the whole Church, and that only Councils would have such power if and when they were to proclaim it and its proclamations received as such by the entire Church.
  9. There are Seven Sacraments in the Orthodox Church, but that’s more a matter of informal consensus based on the perfection of the number “seven” than on a formal dogmatic declaration. Various Orthodox authorities would also argue that the tonsure of a monk or the consecration of an Emperor or other Orthodox secular monarch is also a sacramental act.
  10. The end of man in this life and the next is similar between the Orthodox and the Catholics but I believe the Orthodox “sing it in a higher key.” While Catholics would say that the “end of man is to serve God in this life to be reasonably happy in this life and completely happy in the next,” a rather succinct explanation of what being “holy” entails, the Orthodox Church would say that the end of man is “deification.” They will say that God became man so that man may become “god” in the order of grace, not of nature of course. Men – in the Greek the word for “man” still includes “womankind” – are called to partake fully of the divine nature. There is no “taxonomy” of grace in the Orthodox Church, no “quantification” between “Sanctifying Grace” and actual grace, enabling grace, etc.
 
Sorry, but you now need to focus on your backstroke in order to unlearn many of your misconceptions.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
LOL I was thinking the exact same thing.
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Are you being sarcastic?

Anyway I was not aware the JW’s used a really twisted verison of the Bible not that it surprises me, reading any other verison I don’t see how you can possibly support their positions on the Trinity and Christ. I will try to respond later more detailed but can’t right now (on my iPhone) 🙂
 
(This is addressed to Triune)

Pardon my Yiddish, but oy vey! You have much to learn!
 
TriuneUnity said:
I am sorry, Jeanne, that East and West share the same dogma and theology is simply not the case. In Orthodox opinion:
  1. The Orthodox Church of the East is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church confessed in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. All other churches are separated from by schism, heresy, or both, including the Roman Catholic Church.
  2. Jesus Christ, as Son of God is divine by nature, as born of the Virgin Mary, True Man by nature, alone is the head of the Church. No hierarch, no bishop, no matter how exalted, is the earthly head of the Church, since Jesus Christ’s headship is enough.
  3. All bishops are equal in their power and jurisdiction. Precedence between bishops is a matter of canonical and therefore of human, not divine law. “Primacies” of honor or even jurisdiction of one bishop over many is a matter of ecclesiastical law, and dependent bishops need to give their consent to such subordination in synod assembled.
  4. The Church is a communion of churches conciliar in nature; it is not a “perfect society” arranged as a pyramid with a single monarchical hierarch on top. As such, the Orthodox Church gives priority to the first Seven Ecumenical Councils as having precedent in defining the nature of Christian belief, the nature and structure of the Church, and the relationship between the Church and secular government, as well as the continuation of synodal government throughout their churches to this day.
  5. Outside of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, the Orthodox Church receives with veneration various other regional synods and councils as authoritative, but these are all of various national churches, and always secondary in authority to the first seven. They do not hold the other 14 Western Councils as having ecumenical authority.
  6. Orthodox Christians do not define “authority” in quite the same way the Catholic Church would define it in terms of powers, jurisdictions, prerogatives and their interrelationships. Orthodox Christian would say that “authority” is inimical to Love and in this sense, only agape is the one firm criterion to delimit rights and responsibilities within the Church.
  7. The Orthodox Church holds an anthropology different from that of the Catholic Church. This is because the Orthodox Church does not hold a forensic view of Original Sin, that is, they hold that the sin of Adam did not transmit an intrinsic, “guilt” to his descendants. “Ancestral Sin,” as they would call it, transmitted what may be termed as a “genetic predisposition” to sin, but not a juridical declaration from God that such-a-one is “born in sin.” Hyper-Augustinianism, Catholic, Lutheran, and Reformed, is impossible in Orthodox anthropology because according to the Orthodox, man is still essentially good, despite his propensity to sin. By the way, even what Catholics would consider a “healthy Augustinianism” would be looked at with suspicion by most Orthodox authorities. Many trace “the fall” of the Latin Church to the adoption of St. Augustine as the West’s foremost theological authority for 1,000 years prior to St. Thomas Aquinas. The best evaluations of St. Augustine in the Orthodox Church see him as holy, well-meaning, but “heterodox” in many important details, starting with his anthropology.
  8. Since no “forensic guilt” is transmitted genetically through “Original Sin,” the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of our Blessed Mother is considered superfluous. She had no need for such an exception because there was nothing to exempt her from in the first place. Of course, Mary is Theotokos (“God-bearer”), Panagia (“All-Holy”) and proclaimed in every Liturgy as “more honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim,” but her sanctification is spoken about more in terms of a special, unique, total, and gratuitous bestowing and subsequent indwelling of the Spirit in her, without the need of “applying the merits of the atonement” of Christ to her at the moment of conception, in order to remove a non-existent forensic guilt from her soul, as the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception would have it. Although the Orthodox believe in her Assumption, they deny that any individual hierarch has any power to singly and unilaterally define it as a dogma binding on the whole Church, and that only Councils would have such power if and when they were to proclaim it and its proclamations received as such by the entire Church.
  9. There are Seven Sacraments in the Orthodox Church, but that’s more a matter of informal consensus based on the perfection of the number “seven” than on a formal dogmatic declaration. Various Orthodox authorities would also argue that the tonsure of a monk or the consecration of an Emperor or other Orthodox secular monarch is also a sacramental act.
  10. The end of man in this life and the next is similar between the Orthodox and the Catholics but I believe the Orthodox “sing it in a higher key.” While Catholics would say that the “end of man is to serve God in this life to be reasonably happy in this life and completely happy in the next,” a rather succinct explanation of what being “holy” entails, the Orthodox Church would say that the end of man is “deification.” They will say that God became man so that man may become “god” in the order of grace, not of nature of course. Men – in the Greek the word for “man” still includes “womankind” – are called to partake fully of the divine nature. There is no “taxonomy” of grace in the Orthodox Church, no “quantification” between “Sanctifying Grace” and actual grace, enabling grace, etc.
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So, do you reject many of these Orthodox claims (I notice your profile says Lutheran - WELS)?
 
BrianH said:
Can you name one from his very erudite post? Somehow…I doubt it.
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May I present:
JeanneH said:
We Catholics have the Magisterium who are guided by the Holy Spirit. Even though there are East and West Catholic communities we believe the same dogma.
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TriuneUnity said:
I am sorry, Jeanne, that East and West share the same dogma and theology is simply not the case. In Orthodox opinion…
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Just the fact that TriuneUnity decided to set up a strawman argument (though, maybe TU misread/misunderstood what was being said), shows that TU may not know what he is talking about.

JeanneH mentioned the East and West Catholics (the 23 Rites) who do all share the same dogma & theology; TU posted on the Orthodox, not the Eastern Catholics.
 
"according to the Jehovah…

Welcome to the great debate- of course the JH’s don’t use the same Bible- neither do the protestants or the unitarians.
Luther and Calvin and Zwigli changed the Bible so that latter “prophets” could use it for their benenfit. See Herbert Armstrong.
 
adstrinity said:
May I present:

Just the fact that TriuneUnity decided to set up a strawman argument (though, maybe TU misread/misunderstood what was being said), shows that TU may not know what he is talking about.

JeanneH mentioned the East and West Catholics (the 23 Rites) who do all share the same dogma & theology; TU posted on the Orthodox, not the Eastern Catholics.
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She did? Actually…no. Jon mentioned the different apostolic communities. Then JeanneH for some reason brought up POSSIBLY the different rites although its usage on here and the insistence by many posters to conflate Orthdox and Catholic doctrine, the crux of Jon’s post, is fairly common. Why she choose to do that…is rather interesting. I assume that TU assumed a lack of knowledge about the different apostolic communities on her behalf…I did. Perhaps that is wrong…but it is the only possible reason for her to go off on a possible tangent about the different rites…which Jon never brought up naturally.
Besides, the comments directed to him are vague and rather childish…I stand by my comment 😉 I did find his knowledge on the subject impressive and accurate based upon what I know.
 
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