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rr1213
Guest
Interesting. Did Lewis then continue by commenting on the Protestant beliefs regarding Mary?
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Tiny_Montgomery
Guest
the doctrine of the Trinity is by no means explicit. it must be extrapolated from a number of passages, and the orthodox reading of those passages was (and still is) disputed – hence the need for the church councils that progressively hammered out the doctrine.
thus, for example, we read that Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation.” colossians 1:15. this comports perfectly with the arian view, and can only with difficulty be reconciled with the orthodox view of the Incarnation. similar difficulties arise with a number of other passages.
and even if those difficulties were set aside, there is the conceptual difficulty – devising concepts and accompanying terminology to articulate the unheard-of and naturally inconceivable doctrine of the Trinity. scripture offers no or very little help in that regard. concepts and terminology (such as “hypostasis” or “ousia”) had to be imported from greek philosophy to make sense of the implicit teaching of scripture.
and again, this was the work of the church – whose authority respecting the development of doctrine you accept when it accords with your preferences (say, regarding the canon of the new testament, or the doctrine of the Trinity), and reject when it does not (say, regarding eucharistic adoration).
but by what authority do you do these things?
by the authority to interpret scripture by your own lights vested in you by the reformation? well then, where did the reformers get this authority?
certainly not from scripture.
certainly not from historic Christianity.
in short, to be deep in history is to cease to be a protestant, as newman argued, from a deep scholarly understanding of the fathers and the history of the early church, as set forth in his essay on the development of Christian doctrine.
a book you should read, btw. because you don’t have to live like a refugee.
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rr1213
Guest
Ah, a Tom Petty fan!
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mlchance
Guest
Yes, yes, but what about my questions: Why is that it is so obviously must be Catholics who overemphasize the Blessed Virgin? Why isn’t it at least just as likely the real problem is with those who don’t respect her enough and, in process, fail to give God His full measure of glory?
Then neither is the fact that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, is blessed in a way unique among all Christians, that she is rightly said to be the Queen of Heaven, Mother of the Church, and Mother of All Christians.
One cannot deny a single one of these facts without demeaning Christ Jesus.
– Mark L. Chance.
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rr1213
Guest
God is sovereign and can do whatever He wishes. His glory and majesty are shown in his creation, of which man is the greatest creation. If God desired that Mary should be conceived without sin and live her life without sin, be assumed bodily into heaven, intercede with her Son on our behalf and at our humble request, sit as the Queen of Heaven and that mankind should honor and venerate (yet not worship) Mary in order to show her the due that God desires…then, yes, God can do this and if we don’t acknowledge it then, perhaps, we have failed to give God His full measure of Glory.
I don’t think that is the case though. My conscience is captive to the Word of God and go against conscience is neither right nor safe.
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mlchance
Guest
If your conscience were truly captive to the Word of God, you’d honor His mother in the same He does. To repeat myself: The Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, is blessed in a way unique among all Christians, and she is rightly said to be the Queen of Heaven, Mother of the Church, and Mother of All Christians.
One cannot deny a single one of these facts without demeaning Christ Jesus.
– Mark L. Chance.
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rr1213
Guest
I’m afraid that is a non sequitur. I believe that both Catholics and Protestants have made mistakes with respect to their beliefs about Mary. If, on the other hand, Catholics are right…then Jesus is not going to be too happy with Protestants over their dismissive disrespect of his mother, right? Conversely, if Protestants are right…then Jesus is not going to be too happy with Catholics who have venerated Mary to a unseemly degree either, right?
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rr1213
Guest
I’m afraid that your assertion begs the question. It’s not that easy.
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mlchance
Guest
No more than your assertion to be held captive by the Word of God.
Nonsense. It is very much at the heart of the matter. Let’s start with the simplest: The Virgin Mary is the Mother of God. One cannot deny this statement’s truth without calling the Word of God a liar.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Mickey
Guest
My conscience tells me that Jesus will not be unhappy because humans have given His Mother a high degree of respect and honor. Catholics look to The Blessed Virgin as the model of Christian obedience.
Blessed are those who hear the Word of God and keep it.
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rr1213
Guest
Perhaps. Still, there are numerous Catholics who do not follow the teachings of their Church about Mary and who do elevate her to a degree that is improper. Jesus is not going to be pleased about that no matter who is right regarding this question. But even for those Catholics who show proper respect to Mary in knowledgable accordance with Catholic doctrine might not please Jesus if the Protestant understanding is correct. Christ rebuked his own mother and/or declined to use the occassion to elevate her in several cases. We all know the scriptural passages and we all know that we will disgree about their meaning…but still.
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
Doesn’t “let it be done according to thy word” Mary be included in those that hear the word of God and keep it? Without her “yes”, we wouldn’t have a Savior.
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Mickey
Guest
Exactly! This is my point!
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Stephen_C
Guest
RR1213,
I don’t think you really understand. Unless you have felt her presence. Or felt her loving caress upon your heart, you just won’t get it. Too bad. She takes nothing away from her Son Jesus. She only adds. I just wish you knew her like I do.
I don’t think you really understand. Unless you have felt her presence. Or felt her loving caress upon your heart, you just won’t get it. Too bad. She takes nothing away from her Son Jesus. She only adds. I just wish you knew her like I do.
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Cardinalsong
Guest
Unscriptural? Embarrassed???
I don’t think so! Take a look at Luke 1:48:
If anything, she isn’t venerated enough!
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JoeyWarren
Guest
How do you respond to this claim from Hebrews 7:3 that Jesus did not have a mother?
Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
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mlchance
Guest
You keep saying the same thing over and over again. Doing so doesn’t add any more meaning to your words. You know what these two groups both having in common?:
Once again: One cannot deny any Catholic doctrine regarding the Virgin Mary without denying some truth about the Word of God. Thus, for example, Mary is the Mother of God. She must be the Mother of God.
– Mark L. Chance.
Answer: They’re both wrong.
Once again: One cannot deny any Catholic doctrine regarding the Virgin Mary without denying some truth about the Word of God. Thus, for example, Mary is the Mother of God. She must be the Mother of God.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
Agreed, Mark. Abuse of a thing doesn’t negate its proper usage.
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rr1213
Guest
I probably don’t understand. The Protestant focus is on Christ, not Mary. You will respond that this is exactly the Catholic focus as well…that knowing and loving Mary like you do simply helps you to understand and love Christ better…that Mary always points to her Son. Protestants will say that this is not how it looks to us from our vantage point.
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