There is Still Something about Mary

[mlchance]

…the Catholic focus as well…that knowing and loving Mary like you do simply helps you to understand and love Christ better…that Mary always points to her Son.

Precisely true.

Protestants will say that this is not how it looks to us from our vantage point.

So, then, by your admission the fault is in the way you view things. Your vantage point doesn’t allow for clear vision, for proper understanding. IOW, the fault lies in the Protestant viewpoint, not the Catholic one.

BTW, Mary is the Mother of God, right?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[rr1213]

You keep saying the same thing over and over again. Doing so doesn’t add any more meaning to your words…Once again: One cannot deny any Catholic doctrine regarding the Virgin Mary without denying some truth about the Word of God.

Ok, we disagree. If my postings aren’t adding anything to the discussion, I’ll just sit back and watch for a while.

 

[mlchance]

Ok, we disagree. If my postings aren’t adding anything to the discussion, I’ll just sit back and watch for a while.

Maybe if you actually engaged the conversation instead of repeatedly falling back on some variation of, “Well, that’s your opinion, and I have mine.” You admit that from your vantage point, Marian doctrine doesn’t make sense. So, then, the deficiency lies in your view of the subject. You cannot accurately judge what you don’t accurately understand. Right?

BTW, Mary is the Mother of God, isn’t she?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Stephen_C]

I probably don’t understand. The Protestant focus is on Christ, not Mary. You will respond that this is exactly the Catholic focus as well…that knowing and loving Mary like you do simply helps you to understand and love Christ better…that Mary always points to her Son. Protestants will say that this is not how it looks to us from our vantage point.

Oh well…I only care how it looks to Jesus (how Jesus feels about this)…sorry not trying to be rude. Just can’t be PC (Protestant correct) when it comes to Mary.

 

[rr1213]

So, then, by your admission the fault is in the way you view things. Your vantage point doesn’t allow for clear vision, for proper understanding. IOW, the fault lies in the Protestant viewpoint, not the Catholic one.

BTW, Mary is the Mother of God, right?

– Mark L. Chance.

No, the problem is not in the Protestant viewpoint…I was trying to be diplomatic there. And, no, I am not a Nestorian.

 

[rr1213]

Oh well…I only care how it looks to Jesus (how Jesus feels about this)…sorry not trying to be rude. Just can’t be PC (Protestant correct) when it comes to Mary.

You’ve not been rude, nothing to apologize for. I wouldn’t expect Catholics not to support Catholic doctrine…at least those Catholics of the the non-Cafeteria variety. Now, “PC (Protestant correct)”…that’s a new one for me!

 

[mlchance]

No, the problem is not in the Protestant viewpoint…I was trying to be diplomatic there.

So now diplomacy is right out the window? The Catholic Church is wrong, and you’re right. Not even going to make an effort to challenge your prejudices and assumptions?

And, no, I am not a Nestorian.

Well, good for you, but you didn’t actually answer my question with a simple yes or no. Still, since you say your not a Nestorian, then you must be admitting that Mary is the Mother of God. So, there’s one basic Catholic doctrine about the Virgin Mary that is true.

Next: Is Mary the Mother of the Church?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[mercygate]

So now diplomacy is right out the window? The Catholic Church is wrong, and you’re right. Not even going to make an effort to challenge your prejudices and assumptions?

Well, good for you, but you didn’t actually answer my question with a simple yes or no. Still, since you say your not a Nestorian, then you must be admitting that Mary is the Mother of God. So, there’s one basic Catholic doctrine about the Virgin Mary that is true.

Next: Is Mary the Mother of the Church?

– Mark L. Chance.

rr1213 is a “refugee” from the Episcopal Church. Therefore, he believes that Mary is the Mother of God. This is not a disputed doctrine in the mainstream Protestant denominations: Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists, even Baptists (though it comes as a surprise to many of them) teach that Mary is the Mother of God.

 

[Stephen_C]

Now, “PC (Protestant correct)”…that’s a new one for me!

New for me too…just came to me. I think Mary wispered it in my ear when I was replying to your post.

 

[rr1213]

New for me too…just came to me. I think Mary wispered it in my ear when I was replying to your post.

Nice.

 

[rr1213]

rr1213 is a “refugee” from the Episcopal Church. Therefore, he believes that Mary is the Mother of God. This is not a disputed doctrine in the mainstream Protestant denominations: Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists, even Baptists (though it comes as a surprise to many of them) teach that Mary is the Mother of God.

Very true.

 

[mlchance]

rr1213 is a “refugee” from the Episcopal Church. Therefore, he believes that Mary is the Mother of God.

That isn’t necessarily a safe assumption. Not too long ago there was an Episcopal bishop running around denying all sorts of fundamental Christian doctrines, which is why I figured starting with the most basic of Marian doctrines was sensible.

BTW, rr1213, is Mary the Mother of the Church?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[mercygate]

That isn’t necessarily a safe assumption. Not too long ago there was an Episcopal bishop running around denying all sorts of fundamental Christian doctrines, which is why I figured starting with the most basic of Marian doctrines was sensible.

BTW, rr1213, is Mary the Mother of the Church?

– Mark L. Chance.

He’s still running around. Has a debate scheduled with James White in November (this is one time I’m hoping JW will whomp him good! – and he WILL). That bishop is doubtless one of the reasons the rr1213 is a refugee. Take it easy on rr. Episcopalians have suffered a lot of damage in the past several years.

 

[mlchance]

Take it easy on rr. Episcopalians have suffered a lot of damage in the past several years.

Indeed they have, precisely because of individuals setting themselves up as judge and jury of what is and isn’t authentically Christian.

I don’t mean to come off as gruff or uncaring. I just figure if someone’s going to come here and tell me that some of the things I hold most dear (indeed, the things that first attracted me to the Catholic Church) are evil (which they must be if they are contrary to the Word of God), I get a bit irritated. I’ve never met anyone who actually understands Catholic doctrines regarding the Blessed Virgin who then doesn’t admit that the doctrines are just, fitting, entire in accord with Scripture, et cetera.

So, we’ve cleared one hurdle. Mary is indeed the Mother of God. (If I had a dollar for every time I’ve had Christians tell me, “No, she isn’t!,” I’d at least be able to afford a Starbucks latte everyday for a year.)

So, having established the undeniable truth of one doctrine, we move to another: The fact that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of the Church.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[jimmy]

Protestants don’t limit worship to prayer. Prayer is certainly a component of worship, as are other things such as song, reading of the Word and the Eucharist. The problem is not the worship of God, but an over-emphasis on Mary.

What protestants are saying is that we worship Mary because we pray to her. To say that is to misconstrue what worship is. It is to say that to simply pray constitutes latria. Latria is the worship of something for its own good. Mary is honored not for her own good, but for that of God.

I will grant you, since you are ‘a refugee from the episcopalians’ that your view may be different and that you may have a higher view of worship. But that is the view of the average american protestant Christian.

Is there over-emphasis? That all depends on how you are viewing it. As I said, no mention of Mary is ever for her own sake. The final goal in any prayer or devotion to Mary is the worship of God and communion with Him. I think I mentioned Augustins distinction above. God is enjoy, everything else is used for the sake of gaining union with God. The saints and Mary are enjoyed(loved) only in relation to God. They are enjoyed in as much as they are the image and likeness of Him. So all honor given to Mary or the saints is honor given to God. It has nothing to do with what they have acheived on their own(because they have acheived nothing on their own). All they have was given to them by God. So all honor of the saints is in reference to God.

 

[RyanL]

…Mary is honored not for her own good, but for that of God.

St. Louis de Montfort wrote the exceedingly Catholic treatise “True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin”, which most Protestants would see as an over-the-top book of praises to Mary. I like to quote Chapter 1, Paragraph 1 of the work to help give some context to his words (and, indeed, all Catholic thought on the subject):

**With the **whole Church I acknowledge that Mary, being a mere creature fashioned by the hands of God is, compared to his infinite majesty, less than an atom, or rather is simply nothing, since he alone can say, “I am he who is”. Consequently, this great Lord, who is ever independent and self-sufficient, never had and does not now have any absolute need of the Blessed Virgin for the accomplishment of his will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things he has only to will them.

Worship Mary…

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[mercygate]

Indeed they have, precisely because of individuals setting themselves up as judge and jury of what is and isn’t authentically Christian.

I don’t mean to come off as gruff or uncaring. I just figure if someone’s going to come here and tell me that some of the things I hold most dear (indeed, the things that first attracted me to the Catholic Church) are evil (which they must be if they are contrary to the Word of God), I get a bit irritated. I’ve never met anyone who actually understands Catholic doctrines regarding the Blessed Virgin who then doesn’t admit that the doctrines are just, fitting, entire in accord with Scripture, et cetera.

So, we’ve cleared one hurdle. Mary is indeed the Mother of God. (If I had a dollar for every time I’ve had Christians tell me, “No, she isn’t!,” I’d at least be able to afford a Starbucks latte everyday for a year.)

So, having established the undeniable truth of one doctrine, we move to another: The fact that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of the Church.

– Mark L. Chance.

Historically, it is worth noting that although there is an early prayer (ca 250 A.D.) to Our Lady (Sub Tuum Praesidium), widespread evidence of popular devotion does not arise until the early 6th Century – following in the wake of the Council of Ephesus, which defined the true personal unity of Christ and therefore declared Mary “Mother of God.” It is not just the theology of Mary that follows the Christology but devotion to her as well. Those who accuse Catholics of “inventing” Marian devotion well past the Apostolic age should be reminded that it took up until the Counci of Chalcedon before we had the conclusive definition of the Incarnation.

The history of dogma is definitely a lesson in discovery rather than a lesson in invention. It is really very beautiful.

How could Mary not be the Mother of the Church? She is the Mother of Christ, and the Church is his Body.

 

[mark_a]

How dare I WHAT? Say that Catholics’ veneration of Mary is to a degree that is unscriptural and that Mary herself is probably embarrased by that?

Yes.

 

[jmcrae]

How dare I WHAT? Say that Catholics’ veneration of Mary is to a degree that is unscriptural and that Mary herself is probably embarrased by that?

Christ Himself commands us to love one another as He has loved us - that is, as much as He loves us. Therefore, we are to love Mary as much as Christ loves Mary.

It is unlikely that anyone has ever exceeded the love of Christ for Mary, so the Catholic love of Mary is certainly not “unscriptural” - and is Mary embarrassed by too much love? We are not talking here about a teenage wall-flower who blushes at the least bit of attention paid to her - we are talking about Mary, the Mother of God, who dared to entertain Angels, and dared to say “fiat” - be it done unto me as thou hast said.

As stated in the 39 Articles,

Wait - have the 39 Articles been elevated to the level of the Word of God?

If not, then they are merely the words of men, and if they contradict the Traditon of the Church which comes down to us from the Apostles, then it is they, not the Church, which are incorrect.

 

[Truthstalker]

I wonder about her embarrassment at her children who don’t have the manners to be nice to their Mother or even acknowledge her existence.