There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[Reformed]

Romans 8:1
"There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus…???

The favorite half verse qoute of the “once saved,always saved” theology.

PLEASE PUT THE COMMA BACK IN AND AT LEAST ADD THE REST OF THE FIRST VERSE!!!

Here’s what it really says:

1 There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh.

2 For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh; 4 That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. 5 For they that are according to the flesh, mind the things that are of the flesh; but they that are according to the spirit, mind the things that are of the spirit.

BTW—If believing something requires an act(work)
then everyone has to, “GOD forbid” ,work
their way to heaven.
The grace of GOD freely given through
the shed blood of JESUS must be
accepted by a conscious decision
which requires an action (work).

A FELLOW CHARISMATIC TRIED TO USE THIS HALF VERSE TO TELL ME THAT A CHRISTIAN SHOULD NEVER BE ASHAMED.
THEIR FAMOUS TV EVANGELIST ALSO SAID IN HIS NY BEST SELLING BOOK THAT IF A PERSON IS ANGRY WITH GOD,THEY SHOULD FORGIVE GOD.

Thats when I decided to get on the path that was set for me by the REAL church that JESUS established.

Hi heading home. Thanks for sharing. It’s always nice to read a new poster. So… have you arrived to your home yet? I’m a pilgrim on a spiritual journey to another city not made by human hands. I see that you were nondenominational for 20 years and 2 years as a Roman Catholic convert. Could you please share what church you came from? BTW…I don’t believe in the OSAS that many contemporary Christians tend to teach. I don’t believe that people are saved because they did a sinner’s prayer or an alar call (Charles Finney version). I do believe in the P in TULIP (Doctrines of Grace). Do you think you were united to Christ after your left the nondenominational church and became a member of the Cathoic Church?

BTW…please go back to the OP and you will discover that I tried to post the Scripture in context. The proper context is really all of Scripture.

 

[ralphinal]

Oh, I’m not sure we are saved by having perfect knowledge on an Infinite God, us being finite. God is a very very very big God.

No, we are not saved by having perfect knowledge, We can be expected to know what He wants us to know. Everyone cannot be right. Someone is wrong. Prove that you are right. You hold to doctrine that the majority of CHristianity considers heretical. You have yet to establish that your position is correct as we can use scripture to defend ours. How do you know that you are not rejecting Jesus in his CHurch?

 

[M0nkey]

However, the difficult jump is to understand how these unique gits, powers , and authority were transferred from the Apostles to modern day Priests. Apostolic Succession is a large jump to make. As you know, most Protestants believe that the title of Apostles ended with the New Testament cannon.

Brother, do you have a way to back up what you have stated here? I would be glad to read it.

Oh, I’m not sure we are saved by having perfect knowledge on an Infinite God, us being finite. God is a very very very big God.

We believe that God is a person (the second person of the holy trinity) who took on the form of flesh in the Incarnation. He is not some abstract nonsense, but very real and is still alive and with us today as he gives us his flesh in the Eucharist. This God who is love, revealed himself fully through the cross of Christ Jesus.

Sure, by what they write is not in par with the Holy Scriptures, right? Does the Catholic Church teach that the writings of the Church Fathers are equal to Scripture as being God-breathed? I do not believe what Luther or Calvin wrote to be equal to the Holy Scriptures.

The Apostle Paul is also one of the Church fathers. Or did he not state he’s the slave of Jesus Christ?

The Reforming Fathers and Matin Luther in particular conceived something that had never been taught before. That is the legal sense of salvation, which by the way, is not in Scripture. Of course, many things can be explained away and be explained as “truth,” but how do you know you are not being deceived? It is clear that God wouldn’t want his people to be deceived.

The answer to the Catholic mind is the Catholic Church.

God Bless.

 

[Philthy]

Salvation through Christ is not a sin issue, but a belief issue. Men won’t go to Hell because they sinned (else ALL of us would end up there), but because** they refused **to believewhat Christ has DONE!

Just for clarification: * they* refused to believe - or - God did not grant them the grace to believe? The former sounds like a work to me, done of their own accord. The latter is more consistent with the “vessels of wrath” that you and Sandusky love to peddle.

 

[Philthy]

Jesus was not addressing those whom God “justifies,” this side of the cross, through faith in Christ alone.

Yeah, well, you think he might have mentioned that somewhere to somebody? Otherwise practically everyone he preached to would have been entirely confused because they were on** both** sides of the cross. Do you really think that they would take the Apostles’ word of the “post crucifixion gospel” over what Christ had told them directly to their faces? That seems a stupid to me. But then again, Im pretty stupid.

 

[cazayoux]

Well, we are all dependent upon God the Holy Spirit to illuminate truth to us wretched sinners through the Scriptures. So, technically, how do we know that God the Holy Spirit has illuninated truth to our minds and hearts to the redemned of God? The problem (IMO) with the strawman’s agrument that Protestants have 1 billion denominations is the same problem the Roman Catholic Chuch has. The Roman Catholic Church like the Orthodox Church are also part of that 1 billion denominational issue. However, Roman Catholics haven’t figured out that the Roman Church only knows in part. If you believe God works through the Catholic Magestium to determine truth exclusively, then I would say your faith is on a sandy foundation (IMO).

I’d say a telling tidbit is how many hoops an individual will go through to ignore scripture … vis a vis John 20:21-23. Your theology should be tested …as scripture says …and yours is not holding water.

michel

 

[East_and_West]

I’d say a telling tidbit is how many hoops an individual will go through to ignore scripture … vis a vis John 20:21-23. Your theology should be tested …as scripture says …and yours is not holding water.

michel

I know. Its amazing that Protestants claim “sola scirptura! sola scriptura!” But when the rubber meets the road they ignore the scirptural passages that they just don’t like.

 

[Pax]

The “gospel” is directly connected to the sacrificial death, burial and bodily resurrection of Christ. The Apostles could not be sent out to herald it until AFTER it occurred. Gospel means "good news, or, "glad tidings."Christ didn’t preach the salvation message He committed and commissioned to His Apostles after His death and bodily resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
…
…

This is a bizarre statement. Mikeledes has already dealt with it, but I’m going to pile on with more scripture.

Matthew 11:1
And Jesus answered them, "Go and tell John what you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.

Luke 2:10
And the angel said to them,** "Be not afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which will come to all the people; for to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.**

Luke 3:16-18
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water; but he who is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” So, with many other exhortations, he preached good news to the people.

Luke 4:17-21
He[Jesus] opened the book and found the place where it was written, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Luke 4:42-44
And when it was day he[Jesus] departed and went into a lonely place. And the people sought him and came to him, and would have kept him from leaving them; but he said to them, **“I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other cities also; for I was sent for this purpose.” **And he was preaching in the synagogues of Judea.

Luke 8:1
Soon afterward he went on through cities and villages, preaching and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him,

Luke 16:16-17
“The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void.”

md,

I mean no disrespect, but where do you come up with some of these ideas that are directly against the clear words of scripture?

 

[ralphinal]

Sola scriptura is not and has never been sola scriptura in tota.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Sola Scriptura is new doctrined invented by Martin Luther. It does not come from God but men. Look at the many divisions in Protestantism, this so called Sola Scriptura Doctrine has done. It maybe the cry of the Father of the Reformers, but the Apostles nor Jesus taught this, nor did the Early Church Fathers.

 

[mikeledes]

You lost me. Would you please try again. The Calvinists, bibilcal Lutherans and biblical Arminians agree in the essentials of the Christian Faith.

So TULIP is not an essential of the Christian faith?

God bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

I’d say a telling tidbit is how many hoops an individual will go through to ignore scripture … vis a vis John 20:21-23. Your theology should be tested …as scripture says …and yours is not holding water.

michel

For those who reject the solas as biblical truth, please read the entire book of Galatians in context and get back to me on these essential issues. Someone asked for proof, and I have submitted the book of Galatians to you as Scriptural proof. I believe the books of Galatians and Romans are the two books that gave light to Luther. Thanks!

http://christianmystics.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/sunrisecross.jpg

From darkness to light!

 

[Reformed]

I know. Its amazing that Protestants claim “sola scirptura! sola scriptura!” But when the rubber meets the road they ignore the scirptural passages that they just don’t like.

Please consider posts 986.

 

[Reformed]

So TULIP is not an essential of the Christian faith?

God bless,
Michael

Where in Scripture does it say that you need to believe in TULIP to be saved? Please consider post 986 since it is related to the thread topic.

 

[moondweller]

This is a bizarre statement. Mikeledes has already dealt with it, but I’m going to pile on with more scripture.

md,

I mean no disrespect, but where do you come up with some of these ideas that are directly against the clear words of scripture?

It’s not a bizarre statement, Pax. It’s Biblically accurate. The gospel the Apostles were commission to take to the Jew first and also to the Greek centered on the cross of Christ. There could be no gospel (good news) of salvation without that historical event first occurring.

Jesus was born king of the Jews (Matt. 2:2). Their long expected Messiah, the Son of David, who would usher in the promised Davidic kingdom. National unbelief, however, prevented that from happening and through that rejection their King was delivered over to the Gentiles for crucifixion.

But by the sovereignty of God His crucifixion became the method of salvation by which God would redeem sinful mankind, both Jews and Gentiles as well (the world). That’s why Paul writes:Rom 11:11 "I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation {has come} to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!"After His bodily resurrection Jesus did not usher in the Davidic Kingdom, for which He was born to rule as King, but ascended back into heaven, only after He commissioned His Apostles to preach the gospel of GRACE, the gospel of SALVATION:Rom 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Acts 20:24 "But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God.Jesus, during His earthly ministry, did not preach the gospel of salvation, the gospel of the grace of God, which doctrines center on the sacrificial death and bodily resurrection of Israel’s rejected Messiah, but He went about preaching the “gospel of the kingdom.” The kingdom He was born to reign over but was postponed because of His rejection:Matt 4:23 “Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.”

Matt 9:35 "Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness."During this church age it is the “gospel of God’s grace,” the “gospel of salvation” through the cross of Christ that is being preached, and when believed the believer is appropriated, in full, the work Christ "finished’ there on the cross: redemption, the forgiveness of sins, and reconciliation to God.

But Christ is yet to return to this earth again. Not for sin, but to usher in His Kingdom and fulfill the words God spoke through Israel’s prophets concerning the Davidic Kingdom, and Gabriel spoke to Mary at the Annunciation:Luke 1:31-33 “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end” (cf. Rom. 11:25-29)At the end of the age, just prior to His second Advent, the “gospel of the kingdom” both John the Baptist and Jesus preached prior to His death will again be preached, not only in Israel but to the whole world - and then the end of the age will will come (Matt. 24:14). He returns as King of kings and Lord of lords (Rev. 19:11-16; Matt. 24:29-30) and sets up His earthly, millennial kingdom.

But for now, during this church age, when Christ is building His church upon the foundation of the Apostles, it’s the gospel of salvation through faith in Christ that’s being preached and is to be believed (though many distort it). And one enters into this salvation, wrought through the cross of Christ, through FAITH alone.

 

[Reformed]

Sola scriptura is not and has never been sola scriptura in tota.

Please consider my suggestion in post 986.

 

[Reformed]

Sola Scriptura is new doctrined invented by Martin Luther. It does not come from God but men. Look at the many divisions in Protestantism, this so called Sola Scriptura Doctrine has done. It maybe the cry of the Father of the Reformers, but the Apostles nor Jesus taught this, nor did the Early Church Fathers.

I don’t think we will be able to convince each other to embrace the other person’s authority. But what we can do is discuss the Scriptures in proper context. Please see post 986.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I don’t think we will be able to convince each other to embrace the other person’s authority. But what we can do is discuss the Scriptures in proper context. Please see post 986.

I have and that does not support Sola Scriptura. Martin Luther came up with that concept. Not Paul, nor the other Apostles.

 

[Reformed]

I have and that does not support Sola Scriptura. Martin Luther came up with that concept. Not Paul, nor the other Apostles.

Oh…I believe the book of Galatians is about the biblical doctrine of justification which was the essential issue of the Reformation. Don’t get side tracked with sola scriptura and the authority issue. If you continue to have faith that whatever the Catholic Church tells you to believe, you will not necesarily see the truth of the Scriptures. Please re-read the book of Galatians and focus on the gospel of God’s grace and the heart of the gospel (justification).

Galatians 2

Justified by Faith

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Oh…I believe the book of Galatians is about the biblical doctrine of justification which was the essential issue of the Reformation. Don’t get side tracked with sola scriptura and the authority issue. If you continue to have faith that whatever the Catholic Church tells you to believe, you will not necesarily see the truth of the Scriptures. Please re-read the book of Galatians and focus on the gospel of God’s grace and the heart of the gospel (justification).

Galatians 2

Justified by Faith

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

That passage has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura.