There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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That’s a good point. I only called fringe groups in reference to Protestant groups who deviate from Scripture as final authority to claiming apostolic succession instead. I never stated that Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox being a fringe group. The interesting point between the East and the West, is that they claim mutually exclusive apostolic sucessions and both claim to be the One True Church. The East seperated from the West before the Reformation too? Maybe the East is correct over the West? 🤷 Don’t the East and the West claim tradition and history to support their mutually exclusive claims? It’s much easier to embrace the Holy Scriptures as final authority as compared to selecting a church denomination who claims final authority over the Scriptures. It’s a matter of the sufficiency of the Scriptures and the sufficiency of Jesus Christ.
However, scripture cannot be the final authority, as it absolutely requires proper interpretation. See 2 Peter 1:19-20. That authority remains with the church. Those who reject the authority which canonized the bible are, in a sense, rejecting the bible itself, since it is only through the authority of the Church that we even have a bible. This is borne out in the thousands of denominations which “cherry pick” scripture to suit their own desires. The Catholic Church uses the entire 73 book bible, since it produced, canonized and presented the bible to the world. When interpreted with proper authority, the bible backs up the Church, and vice versa.
 
But not replicated.
The passing on of authority remains the same, covenant to covenant. Without the passing on of hands-on ordination, how on earth were the twelve supposed to make disciples of Australia, which was unknown to them? There had to be a mechanism for the passing on of their authority, and there is. It functions perfectly, a reflection of its Heavenly origins.
 
Sure He’s teaching law: do, so that our Father will do in return. That’s the principle of law. Jesus wasn’t preaching the gospel. The cross had no yet occurred. The gospel (good news) of Divine, judicial forgiveness of sins is based on the cross of Christ. His sacrificial blood.This is not in the context of Divine, *judicial *forgiveness. James seems to be suggesting here that the person’s sickness is related directly to sins committed. This is all in the context of one’s experiential sanctification, not justification.

Why is it you avoid answering my question? How do you reconcile these verses with Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14; 2:13-14?
First of all, Jesus preached the Gospel. Are you saying that He taught salvation by the law prior to the Cross? Secondly, as you pointed out, there is an uninterrupted flow starting with Matthew 5:1 and continuing into Matthew 6. The fact that He has the justified in view in Matthew 6 is confirmed in Matthew 5:13-16, several verses after the one you cited to support your “He’s talking to Israelites” argument:

13"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven
.

Who are the “salt of the earth?” Who are “the light of the world?” Is this referring to unbelieving Israelites and hypocrites or to the children of God, the ones who can rightfully call God their Father?

Regarding your explanation of James, whether or not he is talking about the relationship between sins and illness is really besides the point. James plainly states “if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him” Notice that he says if. That means that the illness is not necessarily connected with sin. Also, he says that his sins will be forgiven. According to you, forgiveness of sins have to do with justification, not with experiential sanctification. Again, James clearly say his sins will be forgiven.

Regarding those passages that you keep citing, those passages state that forgiveness of sins was accomplished by the Cross of Christ and that only those who believe can experience this. However, it does not say that God has eternally forgiven past, present and future sins or that this forgiveness. This notion is contradicted by passages like Matthew 6, Mark 11, and James 5 and has never been the historic Christian understanding of justification. None of the Church Fathers ever taught this and not even Martin Luther believed that a person could not lose their justification and upheld the biblical and historic Christian doctrine of confession and absolution. The first one to come up with such a notion was John Calvin. Moreover, God has chosen means to apply the forgiveness won for us by Christ:

Acts 2:37-38

37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


John 20:23

**23"If you forgive the sins ]of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

God Bless,
Michael**
 
I never really gave much thought to it, and haven’t come to much of a conclusion. It is only important to Christians who claim a form of apostolic succession such as Roman Catholic Christians, LDS Christians, and some fringe Protestant Christians.
The only ones that claim apostolic succession - properly understood - are Catholics. Eastern Orthodox, and many Anglicans. Those “fringe” groups do not have the documented history to back up their claims.

The fact that Catholicism may have teachings similar to Mormonism or “fringe” groups does not mean that those teachings are automatically wrong. Ever heard of counterfeit?

God Bless,
Michael
 
Do you see our circular arugments. For me, it is very difficult to not compare discussing and debating issues with LDS Christians and Roman Catholic Christians as being very similar. If you speak to grounded LDS Christians, they sound more Evangelical than many Evangelical Christians. They too (Salt Lake) change with the times in appearance. They too try to undermine the truth of sola scriptura and replace it with their version of apostolic sucession. Do we at least agree that the battle is the same today as it was 500 years ago? Authority defines the correct gospel, right? If I submit to apostolic succession according to the Magestrium, I would live out my life as a Roman Catholic Christian. If I submit to the LDS version of apostolic succession and the restoration of the gospel, then I would live out my life as a LDS Christian. If a remain solid that Scripture is God’s final authority, I will live out my life as a Protestant Reformed Christian. We can discuss and debate the issues, but until some change their source of authority…we will be debating in circles like a dog chasing its own tail. 🙂

http://seedsofgrowth.com/files/images/dog chasing tail.thumbnail.jpg
 
Bible = Owner’s manual. Catechism = Service manual
Read both before driving toward Heaven.
True, the Bible is the “owner’s” manual. It is written for those who, through faith, now possess salvation, reconciliation, redemption, and whose citizenship already is heaven (IOW, he’s not en route, Phil. 3:20-21; Eph. 2:6). The price having been paid in full by Another.

Your “service manual” is not a companion to the “owner’s manual,” but is written for a renter, one who has only leased a vehicle. It dictates the various conditions that must be met so as not to avoid terminating the contract. Such a manual doesn’t apply to an “owner.”
 
Do you see our circular arugments. For me, it is very difficult to not compare discussing and debating issues with LDS Christians and Roman Catholic Christians as being very similar. If you speak to grounded LDS Christians, they sound more Evangelical than many Evangelical Christians. They too (Salt Lake) change with the times in appearance. They too try to undermine the truth of sola scriptura and replace it with their version of apostolic sucession. Do we at least agree that the battle is the same today as it was 500 years ago? Authority defines the correct gospel, right? If I submit to apostolic succession according to the Magestrium, I would live out my life as a Roman Catholic Christian. If I submit to the LDS version of apostolic succession and the restoration of the gospel, then I would live out my life as a LDS Christian. If a remain solid that Scripture is God’s final authority, I will live out my life as a Protestant Reformed Christian. We can discuss and debate the issues, but until some change their source of authority…we will be debating in circles like a dog chasing its own tail. 🙂

http://seedsofgrowth.com/files/images/dog chasing tail.thumbnail.jpg
While you make valid points, the topic of this thread has little to do with Sola Scripture. Many Protestants reject perseverance of the sainst/ OSAS (i.e. Lutherans and Arminians) and they all accept Sola Scriptura.

God Bless,
Michael
 
True, the Bible is the “owner’s” manual. It is written for those who, through faith, now possess salvation, reconciliation, redemption, and whose citizenship already is heaven (IOW, he’s not en route, Phil. 3:20-21; Eph. 2:6). The price having been paid in full by Another.
[SIGN]Amen!![/SIGN]
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moondweller:
Your “service manual” is not a companion to the “owner’s manual,” but is written for a renter, one who has only leased a vehicle. It dictates the various conditions that must be met so as not to avoid terminating the contract. Such a manual doesn’t apply to an “owner.”
:extrahappy: :rotfl: 😦
 
The only ones that claim apostolic succession - properly understood - are Catholics. Eastern Orthodox, and many Anglicans. Those “fringe” groups do not have the documented history to back up their claims.
And there it is—historical theology vs. exegetical theology.
 
While you make valid points, the topic of this thread has little to do with Sola Scripture. Many Protestants reject perseverance of the sainst/ OSAS (i.e. Lutherans and Arminians) and they all accept Sola Scriptura.

God Bless,
Michael
I think we left the thread topic a long time ago. That’s okay, because if everyone is willing, we can discuss all the essentials for seperation or unity between biblical OrthodoxProtestants and Orthodox Roman Catholics. BTW… I do not embrace OSAS and what is commonly believed by contemporary Christians (Protestants and Catholics alike).
 
And there it is—historical theology vs. exegetical theology.
I don’t see this “historical theology vs. exegtical theology” in the statement I made. Most Protestants - if not all - claim to have an “exegetical” theology and yet we have Arminians (Classic and the OSAS variety), Lutherans, and Calvinists. Christian theology is not based on history, but the history of Christian theology is useful for “exegetical” theology, since there are a number of competing exegetical claims. 🤷 Calvinists often cite Augustine and the Council of Orange when discussing the history of their teachings.

God bless,
Michael
 
I believe this is the heart of our division: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I can agree with your statement and Sacred Scripture; But the real question is; How do you know for sure that you are in Jesus Christ?

We know that the flesh availeth nothing, it is the Spirit that gives life, so how is it that one knows how to judge what is of the Spirit and what is of the flesh? There can only be one Truth. When does one come to the reality of knowing that he/she are in Jesus Christ?

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written: “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” 10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God. 11 Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. 7 14 Now the natural person 8 does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. 15 The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment 9 by anyone. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Peace.
 
First of all, Jesus preached the Gospel.
The “gospel” is directly connected to the sacrificial death, burial and bodily resurrection of Christ. The Apostles could not be sent out to herald it until AFTER it occurred. Gospel means "good news, or, “glad tidings.”
Are you saying that He taught salvation by the law prior to the Cross?
Christ didn’t preach the salvation message He committed and commissioned to His Apostles after His death and bodily resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Jesus, in the historical accounts of His life, did point to Himself as the object of faith and the source of eternal life. But the gospel message of salvation through faith in Him could not be preached to the whole world until He had, once for all, “put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”

You see, Mike, the issue, this side of the cross, is not sin but belief vs. unbelief. Salvation through Christ is not a sin issue, but a belief issue. Men won’t go to Hell because they sinned (else ALL of us would end up there), but because they refused to believe what Christ has DONE! For this reason Paul responded with this to the Philippian jailer who asked what he must do to be saved: “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved…
there is an uninterrupted flow starting with Matthew 5:1 and continuing into Matthew 6. The fact that He has the justified in view in Matthew 6 is confirmed in Matthew 5:13-16, several verses after the one you cited to support your “He’s talking to Israelites” argument:
There are many things in Matt 5-7 than can be spiritually applied to the believer today, but only as a secondary application.

Jesus was not addressing those whom God “justifies,” this side of the cross, through faith in Christ alone. Because the gospel (good news) is that the believer, this side of the cross, is:"…justified as a gift by His grace (how?) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).This redemption was not accomplished until His death on the cross. And with the bodily resurrection of Christ a new age had arrived and men now enter it through faith in Him.

Paul teaches this concerning the believer’s reconciliation to God through the death of Christ:Col 1:19-23 "For it was the {Father’s} good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, {I say,} whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, {engaged} in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.You see, Mike, the major doctrines of salvation hinge on the sacrificial death of Christ (the cross) and His subsequent bodily resurrection. It’s the essence of the gospel message and the believer’s faith unto salvation. What we get in the Epistles is the doctrinal revelation concerning the believer’s full redemption and reconciliation through His sacrificial death and which is appropriated, in full, at the time of belief.

But before you even go there, no, the last part of that passage (Col. 1:23) is not a condition of a believer’s Divine reconciliation but a manifestation of it.
Regarding your explanation of James, whether or not he is talking about the relationship between sins and illness is really besides the point.
No it’s not, Mike. James is not talking Divine, judicial forgiveness based on the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. Otherwise any and all sickness would be considered sinful; and no one sick could be saved; and anyone dying of a sickness would not, could not, enter heaven, having died in a sinful state (I am now addressing Catholic logic).
Regarding those passages that you keep citing, those passages state that forgiveness of sins was accomplished by the Cross of Christ and that only those who believe can experience this. However, it does not say that God has eternally forgiven past, present and future sins or that this forgiveness.
I think, “having forgiven us ALL our transgressions…having cancelled out the certificate of debt” and “having put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” testifies against you, Mike.
This notion is contradicted by passages like Matthew 6, Mark 11, and James 5 and has never been the historic Christian understanding of justification.
Of course, when you replace the gospel with those passages. I could quote hundreds of verses (like Pax) that would seem contradictory based on your method of interpretation (hermeneutic). In fact, by your method of interpretation the whole Bible presents itself as one great big contradiction. As for not being “the historic Christian understanding,” one only need appeal to the Epistles written to the churches (especially Pauline). That’s about as early in Christian history as you can get. But one must first believe what Christ has DONE in order to see what God has gifted by grace alone.
 
Sure, there is great continunity between the OT and NT! 🙂 The OT types and shadows all point to Christ and the gospel of God’s grace. Moses was a type of Christ. I think there is a difference between what is written in the OT and OT traditions. Since many Catholics believe the Roman Catholic Church gave us the NT, who gave us the OT? I believe Jesus Christ is our Sabbath rest. I also see that many Roman Catholics are not willing to enter that Sabbath rest found in Christ alone. 🙂 Jesus is also our Great High Priest.
The Catholic Church did provide the NT. I do not understand this comment? Your faith did not define the NT. Your faith did not review all of the Gospel, Epistles etc. They were in dispute until the Catholic Church defined them. Protestant’s accepted our determination. Any belief other than this is to ignore history of your own faith. This is not Catholic propaganda.

Tell me anywhere quoted in the Bible where Christ defined the NT. Did your faith canonize the NT? Tell me the council that did it and give me the support for that canonization.

Christ did define the OT. Do you use the DCs? If not then you are refuting Christ teachings.
 
I don’t see this “historical theology vs. exegtical theology” in the statement I made. Most Protestants - if not all - claim to have an “exegetical” theology and yet we have Arminians (Classic and the OSAS variety), Lutherans, and Calvinists. Christian theology is not based on history, but the history of Christian theology is useful for “exegetical” theology, since there are a number of competing exegetical claims. 🤷 Calvinists often cite Augustine and the Council of Orange when discussing the history of their teachings.

God bless,
Michael
Hey, we all know in part. Augustine was a mixed bag like the rest of us. Here is an interesting book from a Reformed Prespective:

The History of Christian Doctrines, by Louis Berkhof

ISBN 0-8010-0636-8

You see, I don’t think Christianity started in the 21st century or the 16th century. There is a remnant chosen by grace in every generation of redemptive history. That goes way beyond the Roman Catholic claim. 🙂 The redemned goes beyond denominations that we mere men create. Denominatons IMO include both Protesant denominations and Catholic denominations.
 
Do you see our circular arugments. For me, it is very difficult to not compare discussing and debating issues with LDS Christians and Roman Catholic Christians as being very similar. If you speak to grounded LDS Christians, they sound more Evangelical than many Evangelical Christians. They too (Salt Lake) change with the times in appearance. They too try to undermine the truth of sola scriptura and replace it with their version of apostolic sucession. Do we at least agree that the battle is the same today as it was 500 years ago? Authority defines the correct gospel, right? If I submit to apostolic succession according to the Magestrium, I would live out my life as a Roman Catholic Christian. If I submit to the LDS version of apostolic succession and the restoration of the gospel, then I would live out my life as a LDS Christian. If a remain solid that Scripture is God’s final authority, I will live out my life as a Protestant Reformed Christian. We can discuss and debate the issues, but until some change their source of authority…we will be debating in circles like a dog chasing its own tail. 🙂

http://seedsofgrowth.com/files/images/dog chasing tail.thumbnail.jpg
The difference is that sola scriptura is self refuting because this man made tradition which teaches that scripture is the sloe rule of faith, is not found in the scriptures. Rather we are taught to “hold fast to the traditions handed on to you, either by word of mouth or by letter.”
 
And there it is—historical theology vs. exegetical theology.
???

That is taking the concept out of context.

I am sorry that history does not support any Protestant beliefs. Should we apologies that history proves our points time and again. Perhaps one should remember God is logical. History would support the true Church.

Of course relying on a man afraid of thunderstorm, witches and confession, that juxtaposed Romans to come up with a theology and then had to cut part of the Bible out to support this new doctrine is a much better source. I guess I would ignore history with that legacy to.
 
The difference is that sola scriptura is self refuting because this man made tradition which teaches that scripture is the sloe rule of faith, is not found in the scriptures. Rather we are taught to “hold fast to the traditions handed on to you, either by word of mouth or by letter.”
Which oral or written traditons are from God? You still didn’t answer my question of who gave us the Old Testament. My answer is the Author of the Old Testament is the Author of the New Testament because Scripture declares to be God-breathed. God gave us the Scriptures and not the Roman Church.
 
???

That is taking the concept out of context.

I am sorry that history does not support any Protestant beliefs. Should we apologies that history proves our points time and again. Perhaps one should remember God is logical. History would support the true Church.

Of course relying on a man afraid of thunderstorm, witches and confession, that juxtaposed Romans to come up with a theology and then had to cut part of the Bible out to support this new doctrine is a much better source. I guess I would ignore history with that legacy to.
It all depends who’s history books you are reading from. Does your history come from a Roman Catholic persepective, Orthodox perspective, LDS Christian perspective, or a Protestant perspective? Three of the four groups above have a high view of the Scriptures. The Protestants have the highest view of Holy Scripture. So, what does God reveal through the Scriptures? BTW… here is a Protestant perspective in regards to history being on the Protestant side. 👍

The History of Christian Doctrines, by Louis Berkhof

ISBN 0-8010-0636-8
 
Which oral or written traditons are from God? You still didn’t answer my question of who gave us the Old Testament. My answer is the Author of the Old Testament is the Author of the New Testament because Scripture declares to be God-breathed. God gave us the Scriptures and not the Roman Church.
Actually, you are historically unaccurate. God did give us the Catholic Church because we know, historically, that it descends right back to Christ who said, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.” Giving us the Churs is exactly what God did. As for oral traditions, read the early fathers. You will see it there. The structure of the Church, the sacraments, the sinlessness of Mary, etc. etc. etc. These things may not all be (but some are) explicitly spelled out in the scripture (though I believe you can find scriptural support for all of them) and yet the early christians defened and treasured these beliefs as if the Apostles themselves had taught them.
 
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