There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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mikeledes said:
The problem is that the passage clearly states that the purpose of chastening is “so that we are not condemned with the world.” Which means that the purpose of chastening is not merely to grow in grace, but to prevent condemnation. If our union with Christ is inherently permanent and cannot be undone, then I don’t see the need to prevent anything. Here is another one:

1 Timothy 3:6

6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

The cause for falling into condemnation is becoming conceited. Obviously, Paul does not have an unbeliever in mind.

God Bless,
Michael
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I agree in a sense. If God is going to determine an ordained end (finish the work that He started in His elect), then He is going to provide the means. I believe all regenerate Christians would apostate if it were not for the saving grace of God through the entire process of salvation. Maybe we are discussing the effectiveness and sufficiency of God’s grace for those who are His adopted children. Who keeps us secure, God alone, God and us, or us alone? My answer is God alone by all necessary means to save us to future glorification. Doesn’t God take out a few of His adopted children from this world to save their souls?

Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
Reformed said:
If we only followed the words of Jesus, biblical Christianity would be impossible because the demands of Jesus are extreme. I can consider Jesus’ words and will see if I can remember something as your requested. Ultimately, I believe all Scripture is important since the writings of James, Paul, John, Jesus, and others are all God-breathed. Please see my other post on how Christians (laity and clergy) are given the ministry of reconcilation (2 Cor 5). This ministry alone is how Christians are able to forgive sins.
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NIce dodge. Very nice. You did not answer: did Jesus give his followers the authority to forgive sins? If so, then does your church teach that?

Jesus said that if we love him, we wwill keep his commandments. It is not as hard as it seems since he also gave us the seven sacraments to help. Having a man with the authority to forgive sins is key to making it.

I do not discount all Scriptures. I just want primacy for Christ.
 
cazayoux said:
  1. Do you deny God the power to give power to others?
    The apostles cast out demons as proof.
  2. So what IS Jesus telling the apostles to do? What does Jesus mean when he tells them what to do regarding sins?
John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
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Ones we are His through reconcilation, redemption, and adoption, isn’t it God in us who is doing all that we know that He does through us? I think we cannot make it a source of apostolic succession because God works through and in all of His adopted children regardless of our religious communities. It’s quite a tight rope walk for the exclusive claim of Rome, right?
 
ralphinal said:
NIce dodge. Very nice. You did not answer: did Jesus give his followers the authority to forgive sins? If so, then does your church teach that?

Jesus said that if we love him, we wwill keep his commandments. It is not as hard as it seems since he also gave us the seven sacraments to help. Having a man with the authority to forgive sins is key to making it.

I do not discount all Scriptures. I just want primacy for Christ.
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On this particular thread, we are discussing the primacy of Christ in the sufficiency of Christ on your behalf. We are discussing full atonement for your past, present, and future sins. Rejoice always in the truth of:

👍

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
John 10 (The Words of Jesus!)

I’ll check on this thread on my next work break. 🙂
 
Reformed said:
I believe this is the heart of our division: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I personally don’t see much faith and confidence in most Roman Catholics in regards to this one simple truth. This needs to be received to grow in affections for our amazing Triune God. I particpate on this forum so all of us will grow together in our love for God through the truth of His Holy Word. Our religious affections is the key in our Christian battle within ourselves. We remove religous idols of our hearts through the sanctifying truths of God’s Holy Word (John 17:17). Embrace the truth of no condmenation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The real soul searching question should be “have you really been united to Christ”? That is a question all professing Christians should ask themselves, regardless of your church affiliations. To examine yourself to see if you are truly in the faith is taught in the Bible.

Here is the verse in context:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
  • Rom 8
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And what if one chooses to cease being in Christ Jesus? Is there condemnation for that person?
 
East_and_West said:
And what if one chooses to cease being in Christ Jesus? Is there condemnation for that person?
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I’m not sure you can undo what God has done…to the praise of His glorious sustaining, enduring, and finishing grace!🙂

2 Corinthians 4

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
 
FOR REFORMED:

Your question: * If I understand your posting, you are saying Priests have the authority to forgive sins, correct? Why can’t a sinner go straight to God through Christ to confess their sins instead?*

Your question puzzles me. If Jesus said to the apostles “Whose sins you forgive they are forgiven…” what do you think he meant?:confused:

The CC didn’t say this, Jesus did:yup:
 
Reformed said:
Ones we are His through reconcilation, redemption, and adoption, isn’t it God in us who is doing all that we know that He does through us? I think we cannot make it a source of apostolic succession because God works through and in all of His adopted children regardless of our religious communities. It’s quite a tight rope walk for the exclusive claim of Rome, right?
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still didn’t answer the questions.
  1. Do you deny God the power to give power to others?
    The apostles cast out demons as proof.
  2. So what IS Jesus telling the apostles to do? What does Jesus mean when he tells them what to do regarding sins?
michel
 
Reformed said:
I agree in a sense. If God is going to determine an ordained end (finish the work that He started in His elect), then He is going to provide the means. I believe all regenerate Christians would apostate if it were not for the saving grace of God through the entire process of salvation. Maybe we are discussing the effectiveness and sufficiency of God’s grace for those who are His adopted children. Who keeps us secure, God alone, God and us, or us alone? My answer is God alone by all necessary means to save us to future glorification. Doesn’t God take out a few of His adopted children from this world to save their souls?

Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
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But doesn’t regeneration change the fundamental orientation of a person, making it impossible for that person to apostasize? And if our past, present, and future sins are forgiven the moment we are justified, then doesn’t that cover any future sin of apostasy?

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
But doesn’t regeneration change the fundamental orientation of a person, making it impossible for that person to apostasize? And if our past, present, and future sins are forgiven the moment we are justified, then doesn’t that cover any future sin of apostasy?

God Bless,
Michael
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No. Apostasy is by definition the turning away from the faith. You had it, now you don’t. By your principle apostasy is an oxymoron.
 
Reformed said:
I’m not sure you can undo what God has done…to the praise of His glorious sustaining, enduring, and finishing grace!🙂

2 Corinthians 4

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
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So you don’t believe in Free will?
 
CesarAugusto said:
No. Apostasy is by definition the turning away from the faith. You had it, now you don’t. By your principle apostasy is an oxymoron.
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For a Calvinist, this turning away is impossible. Hence my question.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Cinette said:
Please will you respond to my question in Post #106:)

Thank you:)
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If Priests are the only ones who can forgive sins, then us Protestants who are not in communion with Rome are still dead in our sins and treaspasses. Do you seem to agree with my conclusion?

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
 
Reformed said:
If Priests are the only ones who can forgive sins, then us Protestants who are not in communion with Rome are still dead in our sins and treaspasses. Do you seem to agree with my conclusion?

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
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We admitt that through your baptism you were incorporated into Christ and your sins were forgiven. However, for those post baptismal moral sins comitted by Protestants, we do not know if God will have mercy on those sins. He has not revealed that to us. We know that the ordinary means of forgiveness of mortal sins is sacramental confession. So, at the very least, we know you are walking a dangerous road.
 
I am still wondering about those who choose to no longer be in Christ Jesus. I have seen it happen.
 
East_and_West said:
We admitt that through your baptism you were incorporated into Christ and your sins were forgiven. However, for those post baptismal moral sins comitted by Protestants, we do not know if God will have mercy on those sins. He has not revealed that to us. We know that the ordinary means of forgiveness of mortal sins is sacramental confession. So, at the very least, we know you are walking a dangerous road.
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Thank you for your concerns.

http://indiawildtours.com/jungles of india/indian-wild-bore.jpg

The wild bore is loose in the vineyard of Catholic Answers. 🙂
 
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