There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[Reformed]

I am still wondering about those who choose to no longer be in Christ Jesus. I have seen it happen.

Me too, but why do you think they were ever part of the invisble church? I would like to suggest that they were never united to Christ in the first place. That is why I reject baptismal regeneration. I believe you can sprinkle, dip, or dunk without effect on a sinner.

1 John 2

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/gloucestershire/content/images/2007/11/22/wild_boar_150x180.jpg

The spirit of the wild bore.

 

[ralphinal]

On this particular thread, we are discussing the primacy of Christ in the sufficiency of Christ on your behalf. We are discussing full atonement for your past, present, and future sins. Rejoice always in the truth of:



There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
John 10 (The Words of Jesus!)

I’ll check on this thread on my next work break.

There you go!! Now, how do you know that you have faith in Christ? Do you hear his words? DO you follow that which he teaches? Are you a member of the City set on a hill, which is the visible Church? Do you keep his commandments?

 

[Reformed]

There you go!! Now, how do you know that you have faith in Christ? Do you hear his words? DO you follow that which he teaches? Are you a member of the City set on a hill, which is the visible Church? Do you keep his commandments?

I do not keep His commandments perfectly. How about you?

http://lancefuhrer.com/images/luther.jpg http://www.bbc.co.uk/gloucestershire/content/images/2007/11/22/wild_boar_150x180.jpg

Galatians 6:2

Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Galatians 2:21

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Me too, but why do you think they were ever part of the invisble church? I would like to suggest that they were never united to Christ in the first place. That is why I reject baptismal regeneration. I believe you can sprinkle, dip, or dunk without effect on a sinner.

What invisible church? The Church is the Body of Christ. Bodies are, by definition, visible. They’re organic. Where did you come up with the idea that it’s supposed to be invisible?

Love is Patient

 

[Reformed]

What invisible church? The Church is the Body of Christ. Bodies are, by definition, visible. They’re organic. Where did you come up with the idea that it’s supposed to be invisible?

Love is Patient

The writings of Jesus found in the New Testament. Who are the tares, goats, and wolves inside the visible churches?

 

[Cinette]

If Priests are the only ones who can forgive sins, then us Protestants who are not in communion with Rome are still dead in our sins and treaspasses. Do you seem to agree with my conclusion?

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Dear Reformed

You are correct. Remember that Jesus said these words to the Apostles at the time he built his Church. There was no need for anyone to break away from the Church Jesus built. Jesus did say that he would always be with us and that the Holy Spirit would guide us.

Can you imagine that for 1500 years the Holy Spirit was guiding the Church and God inspired those who wrote the Gospels and spread His Word and then suddenly he abandoned His Church? Can you imagine that? You must trust Jesus and believe his promises to us:yup:

Peace

 

[mikeledes]

But doesn’t regeneration change the fundamental orientation of a person, making it impossible for that person to apostasize? And if our past, present, and future sins are forgiven the moment we are justified, then doesn’t that cover any future sin of apostasy?

God Bless,
Michael

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Cinette]

God Bless,
Michael

This is very odd!

 

[vocatio]

How can you be in Christ Jesus if first you do not accept the fullness of the faith. Second, this doesn’t imply that it’s definite other than if you are in Christ there is no condemnation. Well, all you have to do is commit a sin and you’re no longer in Christ Jesus. So you position is grossly flawed. Sorry to break the simple news to you. But you should work out you faith with fear and trembling like the rest of us. OSAS is steeped in error.

PAX

 

[Reformed]

But doesn’t regeneration change the fundamental orientation of a person, making it impossible for that person to apostasize? And if our past, present, and future sins are forgiven the moment we are justified, then doesn’t that cover any future sin of apostasy?

God Bless,
Michael

I believe apostasy only applies to members of the visible church and not for those who makeup the invisble church (elect). Did we not see that same pattern for the Jew? Consider the end of Romans 2 and Romans 9, 10, 11 in regards to the true Jew (invisble church -remnant chosen by grace) in contrast to the nation of Israel (visible church). What did Jesus call the unbelieving Jew and why they couldn’t believe in Christ (John10)? God will never let his elect to apostate because it is impossible for God to lie. Do you believe Judas was an elect of God?

Hebrews 6

Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation. For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do. And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

The Certainty of God’s Promise

For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, saying, “Surely I will bless you and multiply you.” And thus Abraham, having patiently waited, obtained the promise. For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Romans 8

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Please consider embracing and resting in the finished work of Christ. Therefore, your good works that pleases God is done with gratitude of what God has already accomplished in Christ on your behalf.

 

[East_and_West]

Me too, but why do you think they were ever part of the invisble church? I would like to suggest that they were never united to Christ in the first place. That is why I reject baptismal regeneration. I believe you can sprinkle, dip, or dunk without effect on a sinner.

1 John 2

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/gloucestershire/content/images/2007/11/22/wild_boar_150x180.jpg

The spirit of the wild bore.

But they thought that they were united to Christ. Were they wrong? If they were, then your doctrine of the assurance of salvatin is nullified.

 

[Reformed]

But they thought that they were united to Christ. Were they wrong? If they were, then your doctrine of the assurance of salvatin is nullified.

That is the dilema with baptismal regeneration. Rome teaches that all who are baptized in water are automatically regenerated, united to Christ and are born from above. I say the Spirit of God is like the wind (see John 3).

You Must Be Born Again

3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8]

 

[East_and_West]

That is the dilema with baptismal regeneration. Rome teaches that all who are baptized in water are automatically regenerated, united to Christ and are born from above. I say the Spirit of God is like the wind (see John 3).

You Must Be Born Again
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind [5] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8]

I repeat my question.

 

[Reformed]

But they thought that they were united to Christ. Were they wrong? If they were, then your doctrine of the assurance of salvatin is nullified.

Yes, many in Roman Catholic Churches, Protestant Churches, and Orthodox Churches are self deceived in thinking that tehy have been united to Christ…but are not. Many have false assurance of salvation. Scripture exhorts us to test ourselves to see if we are in the Faith.

 

[East_and_West]

Yes, many in Roman Catholic Churches, Protestant Churches, and Orthodox Churches are self deceived in thinking that tehy have been united to Christ…but are not.

So then you don’t believe in the doctrine of the assurance of salvation?

 

[Reformed]

So then you don’t believe in the doctrine of the assurance of salvation?

It’s a large topic, but yes there is great assurace for those with the mark of being vessels of mercy. What does saving faith look like? We know that those who possess a James 2 faith have false assurance. Those who are still in bondage to their sin nature have false assurance too. 1 John is a great book for self-examiniation too. Conisder the words of Peter:

Make Your Calling and Election Sure

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to [3] his own glory and excellence, [4] 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, [5] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities [6] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, [7] be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[East_and_West]

It’s a large topic, but yes there is great assurace for those with the mark of being vessels of mercy. What does saving faith look like? We know that those who possess a James 2 faith have false assurance. Those who are still in bondage to their sin nature have false assurance too. 1 John is a great book for self-examiniation too. Coniser the words of Peter:

But can a person be sure? I had a friend in high school who was a very devout protestant. He would have said that he was “saved”. But he apostitized to Momonism. He thought he was saved. He look saved. But according to your theolgoy he was not. If it is this easy to be deceived into thinking yourself saved, then the doctrine of assurance of salvation is meaningless.

 

[Reformed]

But can a person be sure? I had a friend in high school who was a very devout protestant. He would have said that he was “saved”. But he apostitized to Momonism. He thought he was saved. He look saved. But according to your theolgoy he was not. If it is this easy to be deceived into thinking yourself saved, then the doctrine of assurance of salvation is meaningless.

No not really, the Bible is full of assurance. Why did John write his first letter?

 

[Reformed]

But can a person be sure? I had a friend in high school who was a very devout protestant. He would have said that he was “saved”. But he apostitized to Momonism. He thought he was saved. He look saved. But according to your theolgoy he was not. If it is this easy to be deceived into thinking yourself saved, then the doctrine of assurance of salvation is meaningless.

No not really, the Bible is full of assurance. Why did John write his first letter?

1 John 2:26
I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.

1 John 5:13

That You May Know

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[East_and_West]

No not really, the Bible is full of assurance. Why did John write his first letter?

Obviously not what you think he meant. He says that those who have Christ Jesus,
know they have eternal life. But how do I know I will “have” him tomorrow? How do I know that tomorrow I won’t walk away from him? The answer is, I don’t know that because I am not God.
Even st. Paul states that he beats his body and makes it his slave so that after having preached the Gospel himself, he might not be disqualified. He was concerned that he could possibly lose his salvation. Are you greater than St. Paul? He also says that he has not yet attained it. He had not attained it during his life but you have?