There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[Reformed]

Thank you Reformed Protestant for your reply.These scriptures I’m very familar with.What I was realy asking is your understanding and explanation of the questions I asked.Please don’t think I’m attacking you.Sometimes the written word dos’nt convey the right tone in which it is meant.Peace

Thank you for your Christ-like response. I relooked at your post, and I think we are in agreement without me trying to answer them. I agree that forum sites and web communications fall very short of what we are trying to share with each other. I think there are practical implications on Christian living with our theologies. In an age of easy believism, we should be very cautious to think that we are in Christ, when we may not be. I did an altar call and sinners prayer in a non-denominational church at the age of 18. I really don’t think I was converted until my late twenties. What does saving faith look like? We know it cannot look like the faith described in James 2. Actually, official Roman Catholic theology is pretty good. I think the distortion of official Roman Catholic theology is caused by both practicing Catholics and Protestants alike. I know that there are Catholics that are united to Christ by their love for God. There are wheat and tares in all Christian communites. It’s not as clear-cut as some people make it, or as I have made it in the past. I also know many Protestants and Roman Catholics misunderstand what the Reformers meant by justification by faith alone. It is never a faith that is alone from a progessive change in a person’s life (good works and growing love for God). There are degrees of Lordship evidence, and I tend to side on the grace side more than obedience evidence side. There is balance and tension on the issue of law and grace.

 

[wardrandolph]

Thank you Reformed.I agree.Faith and works are inseparable.I am not "saved by my works but I cannot Love God whom I have not seen if I hate my brothers and sisters whom I do see.May the Blessings of our heavenly Father be on you and your Family.

 

[cazayoux]

Well, I’m not sure that is only a Catholic question. An Arminian Protestant will have that same issue. Can we be united to Christ, then fall away and be united to Adam, and then later in life re-united to Christ with another rebirth? Please quote the verse about working out your salvation in fear and trembling and see if we all see what’s behind us working out…

Well … there was different scripture I was thinking of when I asked the question.

John 15:5-6
[5] I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
[6] If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

The branches are Christians.
It’s possible for a branch (Christian) to be separated from the vine (cast forth), gathered and thrown in the fire.

A Christian, if no longer abiding (an action word) in Jesus, can still go to hell.

Now who causes the branch to be removed.
Is it from the fault of Jesus or the individual?

My confidence in making it to Heaven is never in myself, my absolute confidence is God in Christ that I will continue to be saved and transformed into the image of Christ to the praise of His glorious grace, for His name sake, and God’s ultimate glory.

AGREED!!

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8),
but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).
I am redeemed and like the Apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), (there it is ) with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13)–
but not with a false “absolute” assurance about my own ability to persevere (2 Cor. 13:5).
And I do all this as the Catholic Church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.

You see, if Christ loses one whom the Father gave Him, then God becomes a liar.

God is never a liar.
I don’t see how someone losing their salvation is God’s fault rather than the individual’s.
It’s not Christ’s action that separates the Christian from the vine, it’s the individual that separates himself from the vine.

Scripture didn’t promise once saved always saved.
If this were actually true, then Paul’s letters (to existing churches and people that were already Christians) would have been much shorter … along the lines of “no worries, y’all are good”.

My faith is in the promises of God and the truth of knowing that it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, my faith is not in myself to sustain the Christian walk, my faith is in God to sustain me because God is faithful to finish what He started for His own glory.

AMEN!!
I pray that God gives me the strength to do all that the passage below asks of me … to **make **(an action for *me *to do) my calling and election sure.

The snipit from the scripture you gave doesn’t say I’m guaranteed because of the promises, but so that through them (the promises) you **may become **partakers of the divine nature.
Praise God.

What actions are listed *for me *in this … I’ll put them in bold.

2 Peter 1

1:1 Simeon [1] Peter, a servant [2] and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

**Make **Your Calling and Election Sure

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to [3] his own glory and excellence, [4] 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you *may become *partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, [5] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities [6] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being **ineffective or unfruitful **in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, [7] **be all the more diligent to make **your calling and election sure, for if you **practice these qualities **you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, [8] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

So assurance is not just given, but there is something we must do (actually a lot of to-do’s were listed). There is an ‘if’ to the promise.

Did Paul list things for US to do or for JESUS to do?

michel

 

[Reformed]

Well … there was different scripture I was thinking of when I asked the question…

John 15:5-6
[5] I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
[6] If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

The branches are Christians.
It’s possible for a branch (Christian) to be separated from the vine (cast forth), gathered and thrown in the fire.

A Christian, if no longer abiding (an action word) in Jesus, can still go to hell.

Now who causes the branch to be removed.
Is it from the fault of Jesus or the individual?

AGREED!!

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8),
but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).
I am redeemed and like the Apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), (there it is ) with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13)–
but not with a false “absolute” assurance about my own ability to persevere (2 Cor. 13:5).
And I do all this as the Catholic Church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.

God is never a liar.
I don’t see how someone losing their salvation is God’s fault rather than the individual’s.
It’s not Christ’s action that separates the Christian from the vine, it’s the individual that separates himself from the vine.

Scripture didn’t promise once saved always saved.
If this were actually true, then Paul’s letters (to existing churches and people that were already Christians) would have been much shorter … along the lines of “no worries, y’all are good”.

AMEN!!
I pray that God gives me the strength to do all that the passage below asks of me … to **make **(an action for *me *to do) my calling and election sure.

The snipit from the scripture you gave doesn’t say I’m guaranteed because of the promises, but so that through them (the promises) you **may become **partakers of the divine nature.
Praise God.

What actions are listed *for me *in this … I’ll put them in bold.
…
michel

Please go back to John 15. Apart from who, we can do nothing? But we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, right?

I Am the True Vine
15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, [1] for the servant [2] does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another. John 15

Please note, Protestants see Jesus Christ as the true vine as he stated. I have read many postings from Catholics who think that the Catholic Church is the true vine.

 

[steve_b]

Here is the verse in context:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

Define

• those who are “in Christ”
• what law is spoken of here
  Your quote continues

reformed:

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

• Rom 8

What point are you making here?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I assumed Reformed believes in OSAS that no matter what you do in life including sin, nothing can cut you from God.

Yet, I find nothing in Scripture that states we cannot lose salvations.

I have recall Paul saying the following in 1 Corinthians Chapter 2 verse 1-5.

1] When I came to you, brethren, I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God in lofty words or wisdom.
[2] For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
[3] And I was with you in weakness and in much fear and trembling;
[4] and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
[5] that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Paul doesn’t seen secured about his faith.

Consider the two couple whom Peter put to death. They were converts and believers, yet they lied to the Holy Spirit and Peter killed them.

Acts.5

[1] But a man named Anani’as with his wife Sapphi’ra sold a piece of property,
[2] and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
[3] But Peter said, “Anani’as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?
[4] While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
[5] When Anani’as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it.
[6] The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
[7] After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
[8] And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.”
[9] But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”
[10] Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
[11] And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.

These two were in Christ but it turns out they lied. There is also another who converted Simon, he converted but he was so amazing by the Holy Spirit and wanted to gain monetary gain from it.

Acts 8:9-24. It reads,

9] But there was a man named Simon who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the nation of Sama’ria, saying that he himself was somebody great.
[10] They all gave heed to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is that power of God which is called Great.”
[11] And they gave heed to him, because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic.
[12] But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
[13] Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.
[14] Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Sama’ria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
[15] who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit;
[16] for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
[17] Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
[18] Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money,
[19] saying, “Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
[20] But Peter said to him, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
[21] You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
[22] Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.
[23] For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.”
[24] And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

In this passage in Scripture, Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed. Yet in the later verse, he wanted this power.

If indeed, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, this passage would not make sense. As well as the other verses which I cited.

 

[cazayoux]

Complete that verse that you are quoting and you will get new insight. Protestants see salvation in the past, present and future tense. Actually, much of what Paul writes in regards to salvation is past tense. Please look for it in your reading of the Scriptures.

So do Catholics

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8),
but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).
I am redeemed and like the Apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), (there it is ) with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13)–
but not with a false “absolute” assurance about my own ability to persevere (2 Cor. 13:5).
And I do all this as the Catholic Church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.

 

[cazayoux]

Please go back to John 15. Apart from who, we can do nothing? But we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, right?

Yes!!! Jesus is the reason for our hope! His grace is the driving force for ALL that a Christian does.

Please note, Protestants see Jesus Christ as the true vine as he stated. I have read many postings from Catholics who think that the Catholic Church is the true vine.

Three points.
1 - Catholics believe Jesus is the vine, not the church. We do believe the Catholics Church is THE church that Jesus founded.

I haven’t seen any Catholics claim this.

2 - In this passage as in others we’ve discuss there is action required of us and the promise is conditional (‘if’, ‘unless’)

I’ve but the actions and conditionals in bold below.

3 - this is the second time you post scripture in which I show you the conditionality of the promises. You have yet to comment on the conditionality of either.

ALL is from Jesus, but we are still required to cooperate with His grace with action. Works give faith life, just as the spirit gives the body life.

John 15:1-17
15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, **unless **it abides in the vine, neither can you, **unless **you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. **Whoever abides in me **and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 **If **anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 **If **you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. **Abide **in my love. 10 **If **you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12 “This is my commandment, that you **love one another **as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends **if **you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, [1] for the servant [2] does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you **should **go and **bear fruit **and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another. John 15

So many conditionals in this short scripture as well as commandments for us to DO.

God gives us grace so that we have faith.
Our faith is animated with our works.

Works are necessary so that our faith has life!

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Complete that verse that you are quoting and you will get new insight. Protestants see salvation in the past, present and future tense. Actually, much of what Paul writes in regards to salvation is past tense. Please look for it in your reading of the Scriptures.

Philippians 2:12-16
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, **work **out your salvation with fear and trembling.
For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.
Do everything without grumbling or questioning,
that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, 13 among whom you shine like lights in the world,
as you **hold on **to the word of life, so that my boast for the day of Christ may be that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

and we see conditionals and actions.
God is GREAT!!
He gives us the HOPE and the DESIRE to do his WORK.

michel

 

[Matariel]

So do Catholics

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8),
but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).
I am redeemed and like the Apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), (there it is ) with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13)–
but not with a false “absolute” assurance about my own ability to persevere (2 Cor. 13:5).
And I do all this as the Catholic Church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.

Right on Cazayoux! The Catholic Church has always been in line with this.

 

[Reformed]

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Please share the Catholic understanding of the Apostle states above?

Additional writing of from Apostle Paul:

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 8

Remember, you are part of the “all creation”. The only professing Christian that will be lost, are those who are non-elect.

How about the words and promises of Jesus too?

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, [1] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

• John 6

 

[ralphinal]

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Please share the Catholic understanding of the Apostle states above?

As long as we are united to Christ through Baptism, Faith, the use of the Sacrements, and avoidence of sin, there is no one on earth, in heaven, or in hell, that can condemn us. When we choose to leave Christ, we are in trouble.

 

[Reformed]

As long as we are united to Christ through Baptism, Faith, the use of the Sacrements, and avoidence of sin, there is no one on earth, in heaven, or in hell, that can condemn us. When we choose to leave Christ, we are in trouble.

But Paul was convinced that nothing in all creation (including ourselves) can seperate us from the love of God in Christ. Even Jesus promises us that we cannot be lost once we are in Christ. Please go back to my post and read the additional Scriptures. Your post added additonal conditions to Paul’s answer to the quetion of “what must I do to be saved?”. Do you want to believe what God promises in the Scriptures or the teachings of your church?

 

[Tonks40]

What we have to try and understand is what it means to be “in Christ.” Christ’s love is for all of us - that can never be disputed (though some try). He would never condemn us. Rather, we condemn ourselves when we choose not to live in Christ.

To me, to be in Christ is to love him, obey his commands, love one another as He has loved us. It’s not a stagnant state in a sense - it working, breathing, loving by the grace of God. We are all given this gift of grace through our baptism and acceptance of Christ, but because of man’s fallen nature, there will be those who will throw that grace right back into His face, so to speak. Christ didn’t lose us…we wandered away from Him. But like the Good Shepard, he keeps his eye out for us and seeks us out always.

So basically, what I’m trying to say is that I agree with the OP, as do the Church, but we can choose not to live in Christ, which would be detrimental to our souls.

 

[ralphinal]

But Paul was convinced that nothing in all creation (including ourselves) can seperate us from the love of God in Christ. Even Jesus promises us that we cannot be lost once we are in Christ. Please go back to my post and read the additional Scriptures. Your post added additonal conditions to Paul’s answer to the quetion of “what must I do to be saved?”. Do you want to believe what God promises in the Scriptures or the teachings of your church?

You added more to your post after I posted mine, but no matter.

What the CAtholic Church teaches IS what Scripture says. YOur doctrine is backwards according to the Bible.

My faith uses what Jesus told his followers supported by Paul, not what Paul said supported by Jesus. In order to properly understand Paul, we must look at what Jesus said first. Jesus made it clear that it was a daily job to follow him. WE are to first deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow him. Should we fail at any one of those three, we are no longer with him. We will be known as his followers by our love for each other, not by what we say we believe, for many will cry “Lord, Lord” and not enter the kingdom. Those who will be allowed in will be those that feed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, and all of those things he listed in Matthew, as well as being born again of Water and the Spirit. WE have eternal life within us when we eat his Bodya nd Drink his Blood. That said, Paul cannot say that once we follow Jesus we are in. You must answer this: can you defend 100% of your reformed theology without quoting Paul? I can do so with the Catholic Faith.

Paul himself would say “look to Christ first, as Paul did not die for you. You are not baptised into Paul.” Paul was Catholic through and through. It is clear when you read Paul AFTER the Gospels that he was. It is when you look at Jesus after taking Paul as the authority that you get messed up.

 

[TriuneUnity]

My faith uses what Jesus told his followers supported by Paul, not what Paul said supported by Jesus. In order to properly understand Paul, we must look at what Jesus said first. Jesus made it clear that it was a daily job to follow him. WE are to first deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow him. Should we fail at any one of those three, we are no longer with him. We will be known as his followers by our love for each other, not by what we say we believe, for many will cry “Lord, Lord” and not enter the kingdom. Those who will be allowed in will be those that feed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, and all of those things he listed in Matthew, as well as being born again of Water and the Spirit. WE have eternal life within us when we eat his Bodya nd Drink his Blood. That said, Paul cannot say that once we follow Jesus we are in. You must answer this: can you defend 100% of your reformed theology without quoting Paul? I can do so with the Catholic Faith.

Do we not fail to follow Him every single day of our lives? At least in some respect.

Note that the ones who were crying Lord Lord were basing their following of Christ on…what…works, or trust in His shed blood for sinners?

 

[ralphinal]

Do we not fail to follow Him every single day of our lives? At least in some respect.

Note that the ones who were crying Lord Lord were basing their following of Christ on…what…works, or trust in His shed blood for sinners?

You tell me based on that Gosple alone.

 

[TriuneUnity]

You tell me based on that Gosple alone.

“What is the will of the Father?”

“The will of the Father is that you believe in the one whom He has sent.”

The ‘Lord, Lord’ passage should not really be part of a justification discussion. The context is speaking of false teachers and false prophets. Jesus is saying that no matter what mighty works they may have done, they are still sons of disobedience and have no part with Christ.

 

[wardrandolph]

Lets all take a look at Romans 2:5-11.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Lets all take a look at Romans 2:5-11.

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.