There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[cazayoux]

Those whom God moved from Adam to Christ are in Christ forever… to the praise of His glorious grace.

Actually, the scripture you quote is not stating what you do in your summary.
If it is forever, the we are back to the question from before.

You see ‘in’ as ‘always in’.
I see that when we sin, we are choosing to separate ourselves and are no longer ‘in’.

If you are ‘in’ Christ, regardless of your sin what IS Jesus telling the apostles to do? What does Jesus mean when he tells them what to do regarding sins?

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

michel

 

[mikeledes]

Well, case by case basis, I am sure. In the case of the unbaptized, anyway.

What I don’t understand is whether faith precedes adult baptism or it is created in baptism and if faith precedes aboslution or is created in absolution?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[cazayoux]

How many peoples of God will be in Heaven? Do you think Old Testament Saints were saved apart from Christ? Are you saying that Old Testament saints are not part of the body of Christ?

I think after Jesus’ death, before His resurrection, He went down to the dead to preach to those very people.
It’s not a matter of ‘if’, but ‘when’.

michel

 

[TriuneUnity]

What I don’t understand is whether faith precedes adult baptism or it is created in baptism and if faith precedes aboslution or is created in absolution?

God Bless,
Michael

The proclamation of the gospel creates faith; Baptism creates faith. They’re both means of grace with the same result. For someone who is not baptized, faith is usually given through the word.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Those whom God moved from Adam to Christ are in Christ forever… to the praise of His glorious grace.

** I don’t the see the implication of “FOREVER” in the scriptures you provided. Nor do I see an implication that we revert back to being “IN ADAM” as you claim.**

Here is a question for you. Death reigned from Adam to Moses in Romans 5:14. Did death stop reigning after Moses?

 

[Reformed]

** I don’t the see the implication of “FOREVER” in the scriptures you provided. Nor do I see an implication that we revert back to being “IN ADAM” as you claim.**

Here is a question for you. Death reigned from Adam to Moses in Romans 5:14. Did death stop reigning after Moses?

Of course not. The truth of original sin imputed to us is before and after the law.

 

[mikeledes]

The proclamation of the gospel creates faith; Baptism creates faith. They’re both means of grace with the same result. For someone who is not baptized, faith is usually given through the word.

So adult baptism isn’t necessary?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[JoeyWarren]

Of course not. The truth of original sin imputed to us is before and after the law.

In your own words, what is the “TRUTH” of “Original Sin”?

 

[Reformed]

In your own words, what is the “TRUTH” of “Original Sin”?

When Adam sinned, we all sinned (including Mary). Therefore, we are all born sinners in the hands of an angry God.

 

[Reformed]

So adult baptism isn’t necessary?

God Bless,
Michael

I think TriuneUnity is in a dilema.

How can we be saved by grace alone through faith alone, and embrace baptismal regeneration?

 

[sandusky]

TriuneUnity:

Nothing; except that Christ still died for the both of us.

Is he justified by his delusional faith?

 

[ralphinal]

I think TriuneUnity is in a dilema.

How can we be saved by grace alone through faith alone, and embrace baptismal regeneration?

Not that TU needs my help, but the work done in Baptism is done by God, not man. THere is grace given to us by receiving it, but the regeneration is not man’s doing.

Besides, Jesus said do it, Paul and Peter say it has spiritual ramifications, so who are we to question it?

 

[sandusky]

PerryJ:

Because then it would be single predestination not double.

Explain.

 

[sandusky]

ralphinal:

If someone hears the Gospel and chooses not to beleive, that is not the same. Do you beleive that faith is a free gift from God that we cannot merit and do not choose? If so, then God did not allow them to have the ability to beleive. If not, then they had the opportunity and rejected it. If I choose to beleive, is that not a work? I thought you rejected works in salvation

This assumes that God is obligated to give to everyone the gift of eternal life—he’s not, and your church teaches that God is not obligated to give eternal life to everyone.

God is not obligated to give eternal life to anyone.

Eph 2:8 makes it quite clear that faith is a gift, and not a work, whether or not you believe that to be true.

ralphinal:

I hold that there are two kinds of faith, that which is a gift from God and that which is an ascent of will to accept things. One requires our participation. We may have the gift of faith, then choose not to force our will to comply, at which time we are damned. We may have the gift of faith, and force our will to comply, in which case we shall be saved. We may not be given the gift of faith, which Catholics hold comes through Baptism for most.

Biblical support, or Tradition?

 

[ralphinal]

This assumes that God is obligated to give to everyone the gift of eternal life—he’s not, and your church teaches that God is not obligated to give eternal life to everyone.

God is not obligated to give eternal life to anyone.

Eph 2:8 makes it quite clear that faith is a gift, and not a work, whether or not you believe that to be true.

I am not saying GIVE everyone eternal life, but offer everyone a chance. You were the one who mentioned hearing the Gospel and rejecting it, implying one can choose to have faith.

Biblical support, or Tradition?

My own position. It seems like there are times that we just have to say “this is what I beleive” and go from there. It is when we question those things, trying to understand that which we cannot understand on this side of heaven, that we get into trouble.

 

[mikeledes]

Not that TU needs my help, but the work done in Baptism is done by God, not man. THere is grace given to us by receiving it, but the regeneration is not man’s doing.

Besides, Jesus said do it, Paul and Peter say it has spiritual ramifications, so who are we to question it?

It is an error to think that just because God uses a means to impart His grace it is a meritorious work and that the gift that is received through those means is not really a gift. Take for example the following verse:

2 Timothy 1:6

6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.

The gift of God is in Timothy through the laying on of Paul’s hands. Does this mean that what Timothy received is not really a gift - even though it is described as such - because he utilized a means (“laying on of hands”) to receive it? Besides, baptismal regeneration was unanimoulsy upheld by all of the Church Fathers ( including Augustine), upheld in the Coucnil of Orange, and was the universal and historic teaching until challenged by John Calvin.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Gamera]

Matthew 16 is not a Roman Catholic proof text for the catholic position. Build your Faith upon God being the rock, and not on a mere man.

Psalm 18:2
The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Psalm 18:31
For who is God, but the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God?—

By that reasoning, Isaiah 51:1 says the Jewish people were descended from God, not Abraham, since Isaiah 51:1 refers to Abraham as the “rock from which you were hewn.”

The Bible contains three different “rock” metaphors. God is the rock of our salvation, Ps 18:2. Abraham is the rock from which the Jewish people were hewn, Is 51:1. Peter is the rock on which the church is built, Mt 16:18. We can’t mix and match.

 

[TriuneUnity]

So adult baptism isn’t necessary?

God Bless,
Michael

Yes, because Jesus commanded it. Is it strictly necessary for salvation? No. Ordinarily, however, yes.

It’s still a means of grace in the adult convert, too.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Is he justified by his delusional faith?

Sorry, sand, I missed this the first time you posted it.

He could be, yes. At least, temporarily, before his faith dies.

 

[Reformed]

By that reasoning, Isaiah 51:1 says the Jewish people were descended from God, not Abraham, since Isaiah 51:1 refers to Abraham as the “rock from which you were hewn.”

The Bible contains three different “rock” metaphors. God is the rock of our salvation, Ps 18:2. Abraham is the rock from which the Jewish people were hewn, Is 51:1. Peter is the rock on which the church is built, Mt 16:18. We can’t mix and match.

Are you saying that you have no relations to Abraham?