There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[mikeledes]

Of course this verse is true: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

But who’s interpertation will grow our affection and love for God? Who’s interpertation seems to glorify God in what He has done in Christ for us sinners? I cannot embrace a theology which does not magnify the person and work of Christ as a perfect and complete work…to the praise of His glorious grace. That really is the bottom line. God is so glorious, and whatever He does is perfect and to be marveled at.

2 Thessalonians 1:10

… when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

That’s a very subjective way of determining which intepretation is correct. The real question is which interpretation fits the rest of Scripture. Your interpretation contradicts John 15, Hebrews 6, Romans 11:20-22, etc and 1,500 years of historic Christian teaching.

God bless,
Michael

 

[East_and_West]

Of course this verse is true: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

But who’s interpertation will grow our affection and love for God? Who’s interpertation seems to glorify God in what He has done in Christ for us sinners? I cannot embrace a theology which does not magnify the person and work of Christ as a perfect and complete work…to the praise of His glorious grace. That really is the bottom line. God is so glorious, and whatever He does is perfect and to be marveled at.

2 Thessalonians 1:10

… when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

What about those who ceast to be in Christ Jesus?

 

[Reformed]

That’s a very subjective way of determining which intepretation is correct. The real question is which interpretation fits the rest of Scripture. Your interpretation contradicts John 15, Hebrews 6, Romans 11:20-22, etc and 1,500 years of historic Christian teaching.

God bless,
Michael

No, not really. What were we created for? Or, what is our primary purpose in life? Why does God do anything? Please consider 1 Cor 10:31. We have to go beyond a man-centered persepctive and try to see things through a God-centered perspective. How big is our God?

 

[Reformed]

What about those who ceast to be in Christ Jesus?

I don’t believe you can undo what God has done. If God has moved you from being united to Adam, and by His sovereign grace He has united you to Christ…then He will finish the work that He started in you for His own glory and name sake. It’s not that we are so good to remain in Christ, but God is greater than are tendency to drift and apostate.

Phil 1

I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

 

[East_and_West]

I don’t believe you can undo what God has done. If God has moved you from being united to Adam, and by His sovereign grace He has united to Christ…then He will finish the work that He started in you for His own glory and name sake. It’s not that we are so good to remain in Christ, but God is greater than are tendency to drift and apostate.

But the scriptures state that those on the brank that do not bear fruit will be cut off. If Christ is the branch, that means that those who were in Christ can be taken out of Christ if we don’t bear fruit. I am sorry but your understanding is simply not scriptural.

 

[Pax]

Of course this verse is true: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

But who’s interpertation will grow our affection and love for God? Who’s interpertation seems to glorify God in what He has done in Christ for us sinners? I cannot embrace a theology which does not magnify the person and work of Christ as a perfect and complete work…to the praise of His glorious grace. That really is the bottom line. God is so glorious, and whatever He does is perfect and to be marveled at.

2 Thessalonians 1:10

… when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

We certainly have different views on which theology gives the greater glory to God.

As Catholics we believe that our theology gives greater glory to God for the following reasons:

1. God never forces himself upon us and He gives us the freedom to choose Him or ourselves. In the mystery of how God saves and preserves the elect, our freedom and free will are preserved. That is how he created us, and that is one of the things that makes us in His image and likeness.
2. Justification is not merely imputed. It is infused. We believe that infused righteousness is more in keeping with God’s mercy and generous gifts and that it gives greater glory to the perfection of Christ’s work than does imputed righteousness.
3. We believe that God not only saved us from our sins in justification, but that he freed us from committing sin. We believe this to be greater and more glorious than the imputed view.
4. We believe that men become truly holy through Jesus and that they do not remain polluted with only the righteousness of Christ as a cloak. We believe this to be a more glorious view of God than the competing view.
5. We believe Jesus when he said that He would give us His precious body and blood as true food and true drink. We believe that we truly receive the precious body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus in the Eucharist. We believe this to be the perfect sacrifice prophesied in Malachi 1:11. We believe this to be part of the perfect, complete, and most glorious work of Jesus our redeemer.

I could go on and on as to why our theology gives greater glory to God. We do not reduce the complete work of Christ in any way. We simply recognize the fullness of God’s plan of redemption and how he has made us a part of it, and has given us a participation in it. He has done this as part of creation and how he made man. God’s plan is a full integration of all that He has done and all that He desires for and of man from the Garden of Eden to last day and the coming of the new heavenly Jerusalem described in the book of Revelation.

 

[East_and_West]

We certainly have different views on which theology gives the greater glory to God.

As Catholics we believe that our theology gives greater glory to God for the following reasons:

1. God never forces himself upon us and He gives us the freedom to choose Him or ourselves. In the mystery of how God saves and preserves the elect, our freedom and free will are preserved. That is how he created us, and that is one of the things that makes us in His image and likeness.
2. Justification is not merely imputed. It is infused. We believe that infused righteousness is more in keeping with God’s mercy and generous gifts and that it gives greater glory to the perfection of Christ’s work than does imputed righteousness.
3. We believe that God not only saved us from our sins in justification, but that he freed us from committing sin. We believe this to be greater and more glorious than the imputed view.
4. We believe that men become truly holy through Jesus and that they do not remain polluted with only the righteousness of Christ as a cloak. We believe this to be a more glorious view of God than the competing view.
5. We believe Jesus when he said that He would give us His precious body and blood as true food and true drink. We believe that we truly receive the precious body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus in the Eucharist. We believe this to be the perfect sacrifice prophesied in Malachi 1:11. We believe this to be part of the perfect, complete, and most glorious work of Jesus our redeemer.

I could go on and on as to why our theology gives greater glory to God. We do not reduce the complete work of Christ in any way. We simply recognize the fullness of God’s plan of redemption and how he has made us a part of it, and has given us a participation in it. He has done this as part of creation and how he made man. God’s plan is a full integration of all that He has done and all that He desires for and of man from the Garden of Eden to last day and the coming of the new heavenly Jerusalem described in the book of Revelation.

AMEN

 

[Reformed]

But the scriptures state that those on the brank that do not bear fruit will be cut off. If Christ is the branch, that means that those who were in Christ can be taken out of Christ if we don’t bear fruit. I am sorry but your understanding is simply not scriptural.

John 15 is a great chapter but it needs to be understood in the light of the rest of the gospel of John and the entire Bible.

 

[Reformed]

We certainly have different views on which theology gives the greater glory to God.

As Catholics we believe that our theology gives greater glory to God for the following reasons:

1. God never forces himself upon us and He gives us the freedom to choose Him or ourselves. In the mystery of how God saves and preserves the elect, our freedom and free will are preserved. That is how he created us, and that is one of the things that makes us in His image and likeness.
2. Justification is not merely imputed. It is infused. We believe that infused righteousness is more in keeping with God’s mercy and generous gifts and that it gives greater glory to the perfection of Christ’s work than does imputed righteousness.
3. We believe that God not only saved us from our sins in justification, but that he freed us from committing sin. We believe this to be greater and more glorious than the imputed view.
4. We believe that men become truly holy through Jesus and that they do not remain polluted with only the righteousness of Christ as a cloak. We believe this to be a more glorious view of God than the competing view.
5. We believe Jesus when he said that He would give us His precious body and blood as true food and true drink. We believe that we truly receive the precious body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus in the Eucharist. We believe this to be the perfect sacrifice prophesied in Malachi 1:11. We believe this to be part of the perfect, complete, and most glorious work of Jesus our redeemer.

I could go on and on as to why our theology gives greater glory to God. We do not reduce the complete work of Christ in any way. We simply recognize the fullness of God’s plan of redemption and how he has made us a part of it, and has given us a participation in it. He has done this as part of creation and how he made man. God’s plan is a full integration of all that He has done and all that He desires for and of man from the Garden of Eden to last day and the coming of the new heavenly Jerusalem described in the book of Revelation.

I’m not sure about your statement about free will in light of official Roman Catholic dogma about grace that only the elect receive. Actually, as I read the postings of informed Catholics on predestination and sustaining and perserving grace given to the elect only, I think I can embrace those truths. However, I think most Roman Catholics misrepresent Rome’s view on the idea of free will. I have no idea how the contemporary ideas of man’s free will brings God glory? Therer is only room for one sovereign in this universe.

 

[mikeledes]

No, not really. What were we created for? Or, what is our primary purpose in life? Why does God do anything? Please consider 1 Cor 10:31. We have to go beyond a man-centered persepctive and try to see things through a God-centered perspective. How big is our God?

1 Corinthians 10:31

31Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

I certainly can’t argue with that. But in our attempt to determine how big our God is, we cannot contradict what He has revealed to us. Just prior to this chapter, Paul stated:

1 Corinthians 9:27

27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

John 15 is a great chapter but it needs to be understood in the light of the rest of the gospel of John and the entire Bible.

There can be false professors in the “visible church,” but there can never be false professor in Christ, spiritually united to Him. In John 15, what does the vine represent? For your argument to stand, the vine must represent the church or the people of God. However, Jesus clearly defines His own terms:

1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches;

As per Christ, the Vine does not represent a congregation, organized body, or "visible"church. The vine represents the person of Christ. There is not a single time in John where Jesus uses “I AM” to mean any person, place, or thing other than Himself. Hence, Christ is using metaphor to describe spiritual realities, not earthly ones. Mere membership in a congregation represents an earthly reality if one is not spiritually united to Christ. So since the Vine stands for Christ, the branches stand for those who are united to Christ - having become members of His Body - just as a branch is united to Christ and is a member of the vine’s “body.” That’s why Christ explicitly identifies the “branches” as representing the remaining apostles and no one will question that they have been spiritually united to Christ, just as a branch is united to the vine.

Regarding the branches that are “taken away,” it is Christ Himself who describes them as being in Me, not “in My Church” or “in a Christian congregation.” Who is “me?” Christ! So the branch in me is a person in Christ.

Now if “in me” means “my visible body”, then - to be consistent - every time Jesus uses “in me” in John 15, He means “in my visible body.” Otherwise, we end up with a completely arbitrary way of defining terms, making verse 2 the only time in John 15 where “in me” means “my visible body.” And when we replace every “in me” with “my visible body,” we end up with utter nonsense:

**2"Every branch in my visible body that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in my visible body, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in my visible body.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in my visible body and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in my visible body he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

So is Christ saying that we must abide in His visible body to bear fruit? That the power to bear fruit comes from merely maintaining membership in a congregation? So if we remain members of a congregation, we will not be thrown away and cast into the fire? That makes no sense. If “in me” means having a vital spiritual union with Christ in verses 4, 5, 6, why does mean “membership in my visible body” in verse 2?

In addition, Christ uses the word abide (Gk “meno”). The William MacDonald’s Believer’s Bible Commentary correctly defines “abide” as meaning “stay where you are.” “Meno” in Greek means to continue in the place, condition, or state one is already in:

studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3306

A couple of examples where this word is used in the Bible are:

Acts 16:15

And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay ."

1 Corinthians 7:9, 20

9but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband ), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

So in order to abide or not abide, one must first be in the place or condition abide is making reference to. You must first enter a house before you can abide/remain/stay in it. So if a person does not abide in Christ, it means that they were in Christ first. Otherwise, how can you cease to continue or remain in something you were never a part of.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Pax]

I don’t believe you can undo what God has done. If God has moved you from being united to Adam, and by His sovereign grace He has united you to Christ…then He will finish the work that He started in you for His own glory and name sake. It’s not that we are so good to remain in Christ, but God is greater than are tendency to drift and apostate.

Adam and Eve were created by God in a perfect state of justification. God allowed them the freedom to undo their state of justification. We “inherited” the fallen state from Adam and Eve and God regenerates us to a state of justification. Jesus undid that which we inherited. We still have the freedom, just as Adam and Eve had, to personally decide to leave that state of justification.

The story of the Prodigal Son is a perfect example. The son is a member of the household and is in good standing with his father. The son takes his “inheritance” and squanders it in a life of dissipation in the flesh. The son had to leave the household in order to this. He freely left the protection of his father’s household.

We too can choose to leave the household of our heavenly Father. We are adopted sons and daughters, but we are free to reject the gifts and protection of the household. Sin and life in the Spirit are incompatible. If we live in the Spirit as members of the household we will live. If we leave the household and live in the Spirit we will die.

The prodigal son left the household and lived in the flesh. When he finally repented and came back in humility to his father he was forgiven and restored. Some return and some do not. Those that repent can be forgiven. Those that do not return repentant are dead in their sins.

The return of the prodigal son is very descriptive in all of this. Upon the son’s return the father exclaims, “for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.”

 

[Reformed]

1 Corinthians 10:31

31Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

I certainly can’t argue with that. But in our attempt to determine how big our God is, we cannot contradict what He has revealed to us. Just prior to this chapter, Paul stated:

1 Corinthians 9:27

27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

God Bless,
Michael

There is much that we do in the Christian life by and through Christ. Apart from Christ we can do nothing. Or, we can do all things through Christ who gives us strenght. All we do is through Him. We no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The love of Christ compells us to do. So, all that God calls us to do…we are enabled to do through Him.

What is the famous saying of Augustine that started the controversy with Pelagius?

Around 405, it is said that Pelagius heard a quotation from Augustine’s work Confessions, ‘Give me what you command and command what you will.’ This verse concerned Pelagius because it seemed from this verse that Augustine was teaching doctrine contrary to traditional Christian understandings of grace and free will, turning man into a mere automaton.

 

[mikeledes]

Ezekiel 3:20-21

**20"Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
21"However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself." **

Ezekiel 33:13

13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.

If a person is righteous he or she has obvioulsy received the gifts of faith and justification. Who is describing this person as righteous in these passages? GOD! Therefore, this person is righteous in His sight. This is reaffirmed by the phrase “he will surely live.” That phrase means Divine approval and is only used when God is referring to someone truly righteous (Ezekiel 3:21, 18:17, etc.) or to a wicked person who has truly repented and has been forgiven (Ezekiel 18:21). God will never approve someone who is a false professor. In the above case, the person has become presumptous and turned away from his righteosness after receiving approval from God ("when I say to the righteous he shall surely live…). The truth expressed by Ezekiel is reaffirmed by Jesus in:

Luke 12:40-46

40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
41 Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Note that the servant begins faithful and wise - that’s why he’s given a position of authority over the other servants - but then abuses his authority and turns to a licentious life. What is his end? Eternal damnation. Now combine this with passages like John 15 and Hebrews 6.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

There is much that we do in the Christian life by and through Christ. Apart from Christ we can do nothing. Or, we can do all things through Christ who gives us strenght. All we do is through Him. We no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The love of Christ compells us to do. So, all that God calls us to do…we are enabled to do through Him.

What is the famous saying of Augustine that started the controversy with Pelagius?

And that same Augustine stated in chapter 21 in Gift of Perseverance :

But of two pious men, why to the one should be given perseverance unto the end, and to the other it should not be given, God’s judgments are even more unsearchable…
Lastly, had not both been called, and followed Him that called them? And had not both become, from wicked men, justified men, and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration?

And the Council of Orange, which condemned Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism also stated:

**CANON 24. Concerning the branches of the vine. The branches on the vine do not give life to the vine, but receive life from it; thus the vine is related to its branches in such a way that it supplies them with what they need to live, and does not take this from them. Thus it is to the advantage of the disciples, not Christ, both to have Christ abiding in them and to abide in Christ. For if the vine is cut down another can shoot up from the live root; but one who is cut off from the vine cannot live without the root **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[East_and_West]

John 15 is a great chapter but it needs to be understood in the light of the rest of the gospel of John and the entire Bible.

Interesting that everytime some one points out a passage or verse that contradicts your beliefs, you say, “That’s a great verse but it needs to be understood in the light of the rest of the gospel.”
As this happens over and over you will find that you are trying to explain away most of the bible. That happened to me when i was going to a protestant church and that is why I returned to the Catholic Church.

 

[Reformed]

It seems most contemporary Roman Catholics have a Pelagius understanding of free will as compared to Augustine’s view of free will.

Around 405, it is said that Pelagius heard a quotation from Augustine’s work Confessions, ‘Give me what you command and command what you will.’ This verse concerned Pelagius because it seemed from this verse that Augustine was teaching doctrine contrary to traditional Christian understandings of grace and free will, turning man into a mere automaton.

 

[Pax]

I’m not sure about your statement about free will in light of official Roman Catholic dogma about grace that only the elect receive. Actually, as I read the postings of informed Catholics on predestination and sustaining and perserving grace given to the elect only, I think I can embrace those truths. However, I think most Roman Catholics misrepresent Rome’s view on the idea of free will. I have no idea how the contemporary ideas of man’s free will brings God glory? Therer is only room for one sovereign in this universe.

Free will is always preserved. Grace, according to Catholic teaching, is always sufficient but it does not force a person. The elect receive efficacious grace unto salvation. Efficacious grace is the Catholic equivalent to, but not the same as, irresistable grace in Calvinist theology. In the former efficacious grace is thought to be totally enabling while in the latter grace in general simply cannot be resisted.

There is certainly a bit of mystery associated with grace and free will. God gives us both and in his love and mercy provides us what we need.

James Akin’s book The Salvation Controversy covers this issue and others very well. He gives an even handed look at both the Calvinist and Catholic positions. I highly recommend the book.

 

[East_and_West]

It seems most contemporary Roman Catholics have a Pelagius understanding of free will as compared to Augustine’s view of free will.

Around 405, it is said that Pelagius heard a quotation from Augustine’s work Confessions, ‘Give me what you command and command what you will.’ This verse concerned Pelagius because it seemed from this verse that Augustine was teaching doctrine contrary to traditional Christian understandings of grace and free will, turning man into a mere automaton.

Augustine also said that “God who created the universe without our help will not save us without our help.” (Paraphrase)
Of course you will respond, “That is a great quote but needs to be understood in light of the rest of Augustine.”

 

[Reformed]

Interesting that everytime some one points out a passage or verse that contradicts your beliefs, you say, “That’s a great verse but it needs to be understood in the light of the rest of the gospel.”
As this happens over and over you will find that you are trying to explain away most of the bible. That happened to me when i was going to a protestant church and that is why I returned to the Catholic Church.

Oh…try to be humble…everyone has their presuppositions and systematic theology. Your understanding of Scripture is driven by the Magestrium. To say otherwise is untrue. The biggest problem of Roman Catholics is the unwillingness to admit that they know in part. The doctrine of the infallibilty of the Pope speaking from the chair is such a blind man-made doctrine to embrace.