There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[Reformed]

I’m surprise that, since it is your view that we are either of the elect or not, you would even see the need for any individual’s reconciliation … either in the general sense you mention above or the very specific power Jesus gave to the apostles.

The gospel is power … including John 20:21-23.

In this verse, Jesus is not using the general language you use above.

Would you say that YOU have the power to forgive sins of another?
Would you say that the apostles did?

michel

Well, I believe there is no such thing as apostolic succession, and the ministry of the original apostles is unique. The elect is made up of individual sinners which is only known by God. Therefore, we are commanded to share the gospel of reconciliation to all who are willing to listen. All Christians have the message and command to share the good news of God of forgiveness through Christ. I haven’t thought much about the specifics about the Apostles, but I don’t think they forgave sins of those who did not receive Christ. So, in essence their particular power to forgive sins is tied in with the gospel proclamation in conjunction of the effectual work of God the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the elect of God. Consider the thesis statement for the book of Romans:

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

 

[Reformed]

I didn’t commit Adam’s sin, Adam did.
Since I am ‘in’ Adam, I *inherit *that sin … even though I am not the one who committed it.

Original sin is inherited, not committed.
A baby does not commit sin.
Sin is always in the intention.

You say a baby cannot be baptized, but has committed sin.
This is an inconsistency.
If you think a baby is capable of sin, then all the more reason they need baptism.

A person without even the basic understanding of right and wrong that a child has, is not culpable for their actions.
I don’t really believe that you think God faults these individuals, either.

Do you really believe this?
I have family affected, and with the Knights of Columbus have worked with Special Olympics.
I know people, fantastically happy individuals, that do not have the ability to hear and understand the gospel in an effectual way.
They know family, they know love, they know happiness.

This may not be perfect theology … but I have thinking that goes along these lines…
I see it that we are given graces by God throughout our lives. We lose some of that grace when we sin.
These special people get those same graces … however, do not lose that grace like we do because they are *not *culpable.
They keep *all *graces that God ever gives them.
They will be in heaven.
So why are they here?
It’s obviously not for their own salvation.
It must be for somebody else’s.
The purpose of their lives has to do with other people.

It’s the same for all of us.
We are not here for ourselves, but for each other.

If you see someone that is ‘special’ make sure you give them all the love and respect you can, knowing *that *someone is full of God given grace.

michel

Consider the Scriptures - Romans 5

Humanity is divided through headship (representatives). All those who are united to Adam makeup the old fallen humanity. All those who are united to the 2nd Adam makeup the new humanity. If you are in Christ, you are united to Him in all that He earned and merited by what He accomplished in His life and death. Why is God able to pour out His abundant blessings, and fogive your past, present and future sins? Because of your vital union with Christ.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass [5] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [6] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Cor 15

20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God [3] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[moondweller]

So, in essence their particular power to forgive sins is tied in with the gospel proclamation in conjunction of the effectual work of God the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the elect of God. Consider the thesis statement for the book of Romans:

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

This absolutely correct!! To those who believed their message of Christ they could effectively say, your sins are forgiven. Those who did not believe, they could say as Christ did:John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins."John 20:21-21 states nothing about men confessing sins to them. Nor do we have any record of men ever doing so.

 

[cazayoux]

The verse states absolutely NOTHING about confessing sins to them. That concept is read into it.Can you show me examples where the Apostles went around hearing the sins of Christians and subsequently forgave them their sins or retained them?

So help me understand those verses. (John 20:21-23)
What is Jesus giving these men the power to do?
How are they to make the decision about someone’s sins unless they know what that persons sins are?

Let me post this again:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

A big AMEN to that!
Do you see that this contradicts the gospel?
I do not see a contradiction.
The scripture of Acts 10 you mention state a fact, but does not state how.
The how is what is found in John 20:21-23.

Do you not agree that John 20:21-23 shows that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to men?

Doesn’t at all look like the Apostolic message was, come to me, confess your sins and BE forgiven, but rather BELIEVE in Him and your sins ARE forgiven. They proclaimed Christ not themselves.

They would never have proclaimed themselves.
Everything they had was from Christ, including the power they had to forgive sins.
… you think we are not told to confess sins?

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another …

In reading church history it looks to me like men began to distort this Apostolic message of Christ quite early.

Distort the Apostolic message?

If an apostle said he had the power to forgive sins, would you say he was wrong?
If I say an apostle had the power to forgive sins, would you say I was wrong?

Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against his church.
Do you disagree with him and think the apostolic message of Christ was distorted quite early?
Those pesky Catholic things keep showing up in the earliest church times.

Upon your history of confession, how many of your sins has your confessor retained?

None.

And for what reason?

He was of the opinion that I was truly sorry for my sins and believed me when I promised I would never do those sins again.

If so, does he not have the power to send you to hell?

If he knows that individual is not penitent, it is his duty to withhold reconciliation and guide that person to repentance.

And if he retained a venial sin does he not have the power to keep you in purgatory forever? Only he would have the power to release you.

This does not show even the slightest understanding of the subject.
He does not have the power to keep me in purgatory forever … or actually for any period of time … if time even exists in purgatory.
I can have my venial sins forgiven when I go to mass.

It’s called the penitential rite.

I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.

michel

 

[moondweller]

Consider the Scriptures - Romans 5

Humanity is divided through headship (representatives). All those who are united to Adam makeup the old fallen humanity. All those who are united to the 2nd Adam makeup the new humanity. If you are in Christ, you are united to Him in all that He earned and merited by what He accomplished in His life and death. Why is God able to pour out His abundant blessings, and fogive your past, present and future sins? Because of your vital union with Christ.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass [5] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [6] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is Pauline federal headship theology, and is paramount to understanding Paul’s Epistles and what he calls “my gospel” (Rom. 2:16; 2 Tim. 2:8).

The Catholic Catechism sort of hints to it but within its overall teachings it carries no weight or substance. A Catholic has absolutely no idea what it means to be no longer “in Adam,” but now “in Christ” resurrected, He being the “Last Adam” (nor do a lot of Protestants, for that matter).

 

[cazayoux]

I haven’t thought much about the specifics about the Apostles, but I don’t think they forgave sins of those who did not receive Christ.

I agree … if someone hadn’t received Christ, I doubt they would be looking for forgiveness from Him through the apostles.

So, in essence their particular power to forgive sins is tied in with the gospel proclamation in conjunction of the effectual work of God the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the elect of God.

So salvation isn’t for everyone, but only for the elect?

Consider the thesis statement for the book of Romans:

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Romans 1:16-17 doesn’t say salvation is only for the elect, it says it is for ‘everyone who believes’.
Which is it?

The word ‘catholic’ means ‘universal’.
In other words, is open to the entire world.
We believe exactly what is seen in Romans 1:16-17, that salvation is possible for everyone.

michel

 

[East_and_West]

Truly informed Protestants KNOW their sins ARE forgiven:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."They don’t seek it, they rejoice in it. That’s true faith. That’s a Biblically based faith. It’s faith in God’s Word concerning the Person and work of the Son.

Jesus to the Apostles: “Who’s sins you forgive are forgiven them. Who’s sins you retain are retained.” Sorry buddy. But protestantism just likes to ignore stuff likes this.

 

[cazayoux]

Consider the Scriptures - Romans 5, 1 Cor 15

Amen, Amen, Amen!

This does not contradict my post in any way.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

This absolutely correct!! To those who believed their message of Christ they could effectively say, your sins are forgiven.

Gymnastics to not see what John is saying.

Jesus didn’t say ‘let them know their sins are forgiven’ … he said ‘whose sins YOU forgive’.

Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to men.

Do not fight the gospel, the TRUTH. Learn from scripture, don’t tell it what it means.
If scripture doesn’t fit your theology, it’s not the bible that wrong.

pray Pray PRAY !!!
Ask the Holy Spirit for understanding and clarity.

michel

 

[ralphinal]

Why are the Catholics quoting Jesus and the non-CAtholics, other than TU, are not?

 

[moondweller]

So help me understand those verses. (John 20:21-23)

You saw my post # 679. I agreed with Reformed.

What is Jesus giving these men the power to do? How are they to make the decision about someone’s sins unless they know what that persons sins are?

They didn’t need to know what a person’s sins were. Theirs was to proclaim Divine, judicial forgiveness of all sins upon belief in Christ. Never, NEVER, is it recorded that men lined up to confess their personal sins to the Apostles for absolution.

The scripture of Acts 10 you mention state a fact, but does not state how.

Ah, the mystery of unbelief.Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."Right there, caza. Right there’s your answer. The sinner is Divinely and judicially forgiven of ALL sins at the time of belief in Him. The Apostles were not sent as priests, they were sent as Christ’s eye witnesses and God’s messengers. They were not sent to deal with sacramentally what Christ had dealt with, once for all, sacrificially.

The how is what is found in John 20:21-23.

There is no “how” in that verse.

Do you not agree that John 20:21-23 shows that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to men?

No. He gave those men the right to declare sins forgiven or not forgiven based on belief or unbelief in their gospel message concerning Christ.

… you think we are not told to confess sins?

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another …

James 5:13-16 "Is anyone among you suffering? {Then} he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. Is anyone among you sick? {Then} he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.The context of this verse has absolutely nothing to do with confessing sins to have them judicially forgiven.

He does not have the power to keep me in purgatory forever … or actually for any period of time … if time even exists in purgatory. I can have my venial sins forgiven when I go to mass.

Logically, if he has been given the sovereign power to either forgive or retain your sins (as your church claims he does), then, yes he does, and, no you don’t. But, rejoice, the truth is he has no such power. There’s certainly no proof of it.

It’s called the penitential rite.

I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.

The problem with all this is that in your unbelief you’re trying to deal with sins sacramentally that Christ already dealt with sacrificially (2 Cor. 5:21). But what is the Apostolic proclamation:Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."Based on this verse, confessing sins for the purpose of Divine forgiveness is an act of unbelief.

 

[moondweller]

Gymnastics to not see what John is saying.

It’s “gymnastics” to see confessing sins anywhere in that verse.

Do not fight the gospel, the TRUTH. Learn from scripture, don’t tell it what it means.

But that’s exactly what you’re doing. There’s nothing said about confessing sins in that verse.

If scripture doesn’t fit your theology, it’s not the bible that wrong.

AMEN!

pray Pray PRAY !!!
Ask the Holy Spirit for understanding and clarity.

michel

AMEN! Do it!!!

 

[cazayoux]

Theirs was to proclaim Divine, judicial forgiveness of all sins upon belief in Christ.

Not all. Jesus gave them the power to forgive or retain.

The sinner is Divinely and judicially forgiven of ALL sins at the time of belief in Him.

If what you say is true, that once you believe, you are in … and there is nothing else to do … why did Paul write those letters to those Christian churches.

His letters should have been much shorter, since they were already believers. The would have been along the lines of “no worries, y’all are good”.

This is not the case.
Paul talks about a constant striving.

Acts 10:43 is not in contradiction with the gospel John 20:21-23.
The gospel of John doesn’t have Jesus telling them to proclaim to the people that their sins are forgiven … like you want them to say.

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If **you **forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if **you **retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Admit what the gospel is PLAINLY saying … Jesus gave men the power to forgive sins.

Before we discuss apostolic succession or that you don’t see people lining up for the apostles to forgive those sins, admit that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to men.

The Apostles were not sent as priests, they were sent as Christ’s eye witnesses and God’s messengers.

It’s both, not either.

They were not sent to deal with sacramentally what Christ had dealt with, once for all, sacrificially.There is no “how” in that verse.No. He gave those men the right to ***declare ***sins forgiven or not forgiven based on belief or unbelief in their gospel message concerning Christ.

Now you’re making stuff up.
This is not what John 20:21-23 says.

James 5:13-16 "Is anyone among you suffering? {Then} he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. Is anyone among you sick? {Then} he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

so … you will admit that this verse says we are to, at the very least, confess our sins to each other?
We will connect the dots here, but first we need to cover the topic that you mentioned … you said nowhere in scripture are we told to confess.
I’m sure you meant that we don’t see people lining up for sacramental confession, but I hope you see that scripture DOES tell us to confess our sins.

This context is the penitential rite at mass.

The context of this verse has absolutely nothing to do with confessing sins to have them judicially forgiven.Logically, if he has been given the sovereign power to either forgive or retain your sins (as your church claims he does), then, yes he does, and, no you don’t.

He doesn’t.
You would do well to ask what Catholics teach and believe rather than tell Catholics what they teach and believe.
Let’s discuss what I actually believe, not what you mistakenly think I believe.

Going to reconciliation with a priest is not even required for venial sins, as I stated before. … not that you can’t go anyway, it is encouraged.

… and even IF he retained the venial sins, it does not mean you stay in purgatory forever.

You misunderstand confession and purgatory by what you write here.

But, rejoice, the truth is he has no such power. There’s certainly no proof of it.The problem with all this is that in your unbelief you’re trying to deal with sins sacramentally that Christ already dealt with sacrificially (2 Cor. 5:21).

It is precisely because of my belief in Jesus, his Word, in John 20:21-23 I can see by plain reading of the scripture, that Jesus did in fact give those men the power to forgive sins.
I’m ‘dealing’ with sin *in the way *that Jesus set up.

But what is the Apostolic proclamation:Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."Based on this verse, confessing sins for the purpose of Divine forgiveness is an act of unbelief.

Amen, Amen, again I say Amen to Acts 10:43. Of COURSE we believe. We believe in Jesus. We believe in the bible as the inerrant Word of God Himself. We believe EVERY word of it. No matter how hard you try, you cannot delete John 20-21-23 from the bible.

Understand the two scriptures (John 20:21-23 and Acts 10:43) together. One does not negate the other. They are in perfect unison. You can’t look at just one of them.

The basic, single question at this point is …
Did Jesus give the power to forgive sins to the Apostles? [Yes/No]

michel

 

[cazayoux]

It’s “gymnastics” to see confessing sins anywhere in that verse.But that’s exactly what you’re doing. There’s nothing said about confessing sins in that verse.AMEN!AMEN! Do it!!!

Let’s step back then … before discussing confession … admit that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to the apostles.

michel

 

[moondweller]

Let’s step back then … before discussing confession … admit that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to the apostles.

michel

No. He did not tell them in that verse that they have the POWER to forgive or retain sins. No man has that power save the Son of Man Himself.

I answered your question. Now here’s a couple for you? Is there anything said about forgiving or retaining sins based on confessing them in that verse? And can you show me by example where the Apostles acted as priestly Confessors?

 

[ralphinal]

No. He did not tell them in that verse that they have the POWER to forgive or retain sins. No man has that power save the Son of Man Himself.

I answered your question. Now here’s a couple for you? Is there anything said about forgiving or retaining sins based on confessing them in that verse? And can you show me by example where the Apostles acted as priestly Confessors?

MD,
I am missing a step in your logic. If Jesus told them that as the Father has sent me, I send you and he said whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven and whose sins you retain, they are retained, does that not give them the authority to fogive sins?

Isn’t authority in this case the same as power?

 

[cazayoux]

No. He did not tell them in that verse that they have the POWER to forgive or retain sins. No man has that power save the Son of Man Himself.

Granted, all power is from God.
Don’t you think God can give power to men?
Didn’t the apostles heal and drive out demons using the power given to them by Jesus?

okay … so you don’t like the word power.
Did Jesus tell the apostles themselves to forgive or retain sins of others?

I answered your question. Now here’s a couple for you? Is there anything said about forgiving or retaining sins based on confessing them in that verse? And can you show me by example where the Apostles acted as priestly Confessors?

Jesus tells the apostles they are to forgive or retain sins.
So the apostles have to make a decision about which to do.
How are they to make this decision without first knowing what someones sins are?
Jesus didn’t give them the ability to read minds, so a normal way must be used for them to get the information needed to make this decision Jesus is telling them to.

You make it sound like confessing your sins isn’t found in scripture. We’ll get to sacramental confession soon, but first admit that scripture tells us to confess our sins.

Matt.3
[6] and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mark.1
[5] And there went out to him all the country of Judea, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Jas.5
[16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

1 John.1
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

michel

 

[moondweller]

If what you say is true, that once you believe, you are in … and there is nothing else to do … why did Paul write those letters to those Christian churches.

His letters should have been much shorter, since they were already believers. The would have been along the lines of “no worries, y’all are good”.

This is not the case.
Paul talks about a constant striving.

Is conception and birth all there is to life? But once conceived and born you can’t reverse it. The same is true (if not truer) for being born from above.Rom 1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."The power of God through Christ is to save all who believe. It is the saved believer who is now called to live out his life on earth by faith in the Son of God who loves him. Paul gives us testimony concerning his own walk in faith:Gal. 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.There’s no strife there to GET saved or GET sins forgiven. That would be a life of unbelief. The saved/redeemed are called to now walk/live by faith in the One who gave Himself up for them. Faith is not seeking from men sacramentally what Christ accomplished, once for all, sacrificially.

 

[Reformed]

I agree … if someone hadn’t received Christ, I doubt they would be looking for forgiveness from Him through the apostles.

So salvation isn’t for everyone, but only for the elect?

Romans 1:16-17 doesn’t say salvation is only for the elect, it says it is for ‘everyone who believes’.
Which is it?

The word ‘catholic’ means ‘universal’.
In other words, is open to the entire world.
We believe exactly what is seen in Romans 1:16-17, that salvation is possible for everyone.

michel

Salvation is for all who believe in an effectual way. As we know belief like the demons or a faith that is dead cannot save. True believers are called the elect or chosen ones. It’s biblical language. Consider the first Pope’s language :

1 Peter 1

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

1 Peter 2:9

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The catholic church is universal in the sense that God saves individual sinners from all tongue, tribes, and nations to the praise of His glorious grace. Wherever the gospel is proclaimed in the world, you will find the elect of God by their transforming faith in the person and work of Christ on our behalf. A Christian’s confidence is not in themselves, but in Christ. Jesus does not pray for the world, but rather for those whom the Father has given Him.

Consider the Apostle Paul:

2 Timothy 2:10

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

http://redlandbc.org/sitebuilder/images/cross-sunset-195x133.jpg

 

[Reformed]

Let’s step back then … before discussing confession … admit that Jesus gave the power to forgive sins to the apostles.

michel

What are you guys trying to say? Does this have to do with the claim of apostolic succession? Does the Roman Catholic Church have the power to forgive sins to any who do not believe in the gospel of God? Please spill the beans so we can move on. I think Rome does not know what to do with Christians who trust in Christ alone in regards to their status with God. Are we your seperated brethren or not? If we (Protestants) are in Christ, then there is nothing about Rome which is exclusive.

http://www.b4cnile.com/images/sunrise-Cross-13x19_8630.gif

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” Romans 1:16-17