There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[Pax]

You are our brothers and sisters in Christ through baptism. You are our separated brothers and sisters because you are not in full communion with Christ’s Church.

We know what to do with you; we pray for you and for the full unity of Christians everywhere just as Jesus prayed to the Father in John 17.

We as Catholics struggle against the flesh as we live in the Spirit. We know that you do the same, but the struggle is much harder because you do not have the benefits of the fullness of truth in Christ’s Church or the blessings and graces that flow from being in full communion and membership in Christ’s Church. We believe these things to be extremely important.

 

[Reformed]

You are our brothers and sisters in Christ through baptism. You are our separated brothers and sisters because you are not in full communion with Christ’s Church.

We know what to do with you; we pray for you and for the full unity of Christians everywhere just as Jesus prayed to the Father in John 17.

We as Catholics struggle against the flesh as we live in the Spirit. We know that you do the same, but the struggle is much harder because you do not have the benefits of the fullness of truth in Christ’s Church or the blessings and graces that flow from being in full communion and membership in Christ’s Church. We believe these things to be extremely important.

Thank you for your kind words. I agree with the call of Christian unity revealed in John 17. However, just like the Protestant Reformation, unity is based on the truth which glorifies God. Consider John 17:17 and additional words of Jesus.

John 17:17
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

John 4
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Just like the Protestant Reformers from 500 years ago, biblical Christians still protest Rome’s way of salvation because it is a different gospel than what is revealed in the Holy Scriptures. Our love for God and His gospel does not allow us to compromise with the Roman Catholic Church because truth matters to the glory of God alone. Here I stand in the spirit of the wild boar.

http://www.indiantravelinfo.com/gifs/wild-boar.jpg

 

[Pax]

Unfortunately, we will apparently continue to argue over what the truth is as revealed in scripture. Ecumenism’s strength is that it creates bridges but is committed to avoiding any compromise of the truth.

Some progress has been made through ecumenism, but it is very slow and much needs to be done.

 

[Reformed]

Unfortunately, we will apparently continue to argue over what the truth is as revealed in scripture. Ecumenism’s strength is that it creates bridges but is committed to avoiding any compromise of the truth.

Some progress has been made through ecumenism, but it is very slow and much needs to be done.

I think sacred tradition does not allow Rome to change in regards to the essential truth of justification. I believe the Council of Trent has put Rome in a corner that she cannot come out, unless she recants of the claim of papal infallibility. There can only be one final authority which is God through His Holy Scriptures. I honestly believe that the solas of the Reformation is from God Himself given for the edification of the body of Christ.

 

[Pax]

Scripture makes no particular claims for itself, but it makes a particularly powerful claim for the Church. Scripture, by way of Paul, says that the “Church is the pillar and ground work of the truth.” If this claim was made by scripture for scripture then your case for sola scriptura would begin to have merit. Since scripture itself makes this claim for the Church, I see no merit in Sola Scriptura.

Moreover, there are other passages of scripture refering to the Church and authority. Not all authority is vested in scripture and it makes no sense to assume that it should.

Rome is not backed into a corner. Stating the constant teaching of Christianity and properly articulating it at Trent teaches what it is that Christians should believe. If your view is correct then the same statement can be made of those that follow the reformers. They would also have backed themselves into a corner from which they cannot extricate themselves.

You might find it helpful to examine the the Joint Catholic and Lutheran Accords concerning justification. This represents true progress in ecumenism.

 

[Reformed]

Scripture makes no particular claims for itself, but it makes a particularly powerful claim for the Church. Scripture, by way of Paul, says that the “Church is the pillar and ground work of the truth.” If this claim was made by scripture for scripture then your case for sola scriptura would begin to have merit. Since scripture itself makes this claim for the Church, I see no merit in Sola Scriptura.

Moreover, there are other passages of scripture refering to the Church and authority. Not all authority is vested in scripture and it makes no sense to assume that it should.

Rome is not backed into a corner. Stating the constant teaching of Christianity and properly articulating it at Trent teaches what it is that Christians should believe. If your view is correct then the same statement can be made of those that follow the reformers. They would also have backed themselves into a corner from which they cannot extricate themselves.

You might find it helpful to examine the the Joint Catholic and Lutheran Accords concerning justification. This represents true progress in ecumenism.

Thank you for the information. I am very familar with the Joint Catholic and Lutheran Accords concerning justification. Are you familar with the Cambridge Declaration signed by Lutherans too?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Declaration

Do you think Rome has changed doctrinally in regards to justification since the Protestant Reformation? On what basis to you personally stand before God, by the righteousness of Christ alone, or a mixture of your personal righteousness and the righteousness of Christ? I believe the doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel of God, and is the essential error of Roman Catholicism.

 

[Reformed]

Scripture makes no particular claims for itself, but it makes a particularly powerful claim for the Church. Scripture, by way of Paul, says that the “Church is the pillar and ground work of the truth.” If this claim was made by scripture for scripture then your case for sola scriptura would begin to have merit. Since scripture itself makes this claim for the Church, I see no merit in Sola Scriptura.

Moreover, there are other passages of scripture refering to the Church and authority. Not all authority is vested in scripture and it makes no sense to assume that it should.

Rome is not backed into a corner. Stating the constant teaching of Christianity and properly articulating it at Trent teaches what it is that Christians should believe. If your view is correct then the same statement can be made of those that follow the reformers. They would also have backed themselves into a corner from which they cannot extricate themselves.

You might find it helpful to examine the the Joint Catholic and Lutheran Accords concerning justification. This represents true progress in ecumenism.

Thank you for the information. I am very familar with the Joint Catholic and Lutheran Accords concerning justification. Are you familar with the Cambridge Declaration signed by Lutherans too?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Declaration

Do you think Rome has changed doctrinally in regards to justification since the Protestant Reformation? On what basis to you personally stand before God, by the righteousness of Christ alone, or a mixture of your personal righteousness and the righteousness of Christ? I believe the doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel of God, and is the essential error of Roman Catholicism.

http://www.americanvision.org/images/reformers.jpg

The remnant chosen by grace.

But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. - rom 11

 

[Pax]

Although I have heard of the Cambridge Declaration, I had never read anything that gave any details or even a good summary. Thanks for the link…my education continues.

I find the participation of Lutherans to be interesting in that many Lutherans applaud the Catholic & Lutheran Accords whereas others condemn them. Naturally, the Lutherans that support the Cambridge Declaration are not the same ones that support the Joint Catholic and Lutheran Accords. Our divisions are many within Christianity.

The Church has not changed her stand on justification. The Canons of Trent still stand. The difference is in the understandings and perceptions that both sides had of the others positions. While not everything was worked out and differences still exist, the condemnations have been lifted in the Accords.

I still think that most non-Catholic critics of Catholicism have an underdeveloped and misinformed view of the Catholic teachings on justification. When we really understand one another properly we can see the differences, but we can also see that we are not necessarily all that far apart.

 

[Reformed]

Although I have heard of the Cambridge Declaration, I had never read anything that gave any details or even a good summary. Thanks for the link…my education continues.

I find the participation of Lutherans to be interesting in that many Lutherans applaud the Catholic & Lutheran Accords whereas others condemn them. Naturally, the Lutherans that support the Cambridge Declaration are not the same ones that support the Joint Catholic and Lutheran Accords. Our divisions are many within Christianity.

The Church has not changed her stand on justification. The Canons of Trent still stand. The difference is in the understandings and perceptions that both sides had of the others positions. While not everything was worked out and differences still exist, the condemnations have been lifted in the Accords.

I still think that most non-Catholic critics of Catholicism have an underdeveloped and misinformed view of the Catholic teachings on justification. When we really understand one another properly we can see the differences, but we can also see that we are not necessarily all that far apart.

I have enjoy my time and participation on this Catholic site. I have found the moderators and Catholics to be very gracious and kind. I know God has his remnant inside the walls of the Catholic Church. Maybe there are many Roman Catholics who are forever united to Christ, in-spite of official Roman Catholic teaching. I find that Roman Catholics are very diverse in their beliefs and views. Some Roman Catholics think and sound just like any other Evangelical Christian. Some Roman Catholics, in my fallible opinion, do not know Christ and make the Catholic Church as their savior and idol. I’m sure you can say the same thing about Evangelicals too. How do you personally understanding the OP scripture? Do you find the righteousness of Christ sufficient for you? Romans chapter 8 is loved by Protestants and Catholics alike.

 

[cazayoux]

What are you guys trying to say?

That John 20:21-23 shows that Jesus says the apostles can forgive or retain sins.

Does this have to do with the claim of apostolic succession?

Not yet. First we need to finish with John 20:21-23 and the implications of what it means for men to be able to forgive sins.

There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Amen! … We differ on the ability of a person to be ‘in’ Christ, then afterward fall away and no longer be ‘in’ Christ.
Your claim is that this cannot happen.
If this is so, why oh why does Jesus tell the apostles to forgive or retain sins.

Does the Roman Catholic Church have the power to forgive sins to any who do not believe in the gospel of God?

Of course not. This is not even close to the claim.

I think Rome does not know what to do with Christians who trust in Christ alone in regards to their status with God.

If you trusted in Christ alone, you would listen to ALL he said.
Jesus is truth.
As stated by Pax, the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.
We agree that the bible is the inerrant Word of God.
If you trusted in Christ completely, you would listen to his Word and his Church (as scripture says to).
You attempt to do the impossible, divorce scripture from the church He founded.
The results of doing this are clear over the last 500 years.
Clarity of the truth is quite muddled across Christianity.

A clear example is that we cannot get agreement on John 20:21-23.
Clear text that you refuse to acknowledge because of the implications to your theology.
None of the scripture you share is in opposition to the clear meaning of John 20:21-23.

Quit fighting off-topic items such as apostolic succession and how priestly sacramental confession is practiced today.

Let’s keep the conversation on the apostles themselves for now.

michel

 

[Pax]

Righteousness is infused within the Christian. When we are justified, we are washed, sanctified, regenerated, and brought into friendship with God. We are given the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit dwells within us. This righteousness is given to us as a free gift of God by the merits of Jesus Christ’s salvific work on the cross. It is unearned and it is by grace that the believer is able to accept God’s gracious gift of faith.

The believer is not passive in so far as the believer “freely” accepts the gift and believes. This freedom explains why not all people come to faith even though God desires that all men be saved.

When God justifies us we are thus made adopted sons and daughters of God and we are brothers and sisters in Christ. We become part of the household of God. We become family members. He is our God and we are His people.

We are not only freed from original sin, but we are cleansed from personal sin as well. Moreover,** we are freed from committing sin**. This important aspect of justification and life in the Spirit comes through in many places in scripture. Righteousness is not only a gift when we are born again, but it is now our way of life in the Spirit. We are done with living in the flesh for we walk in the light and live in the Spirit. We no longer live in the flesh.

This is why in Revelation 22:11 John says in regards to the coming judgment “Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.” Righteousness is given and then righteousness is lived.

As members of God’s household we no longer live in sin. Sin and life in the Spirit are incompatible. “The wages of sin is death, but but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” If we choose to remain/abide in the household we do not live in the flesh. If we remain/abide in Christ we do not live in the flesh. If we choose to leave the household and decide to return to a life in the flesh we will die in our sins. Scripture tells us, “nothing unclean” will enter heaven.[Rev 21:27]

Our righteousness is of God by way of his grace. We are as it says in Eph 2:10 “his[God’s] workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Even before we were justified God prepared the good works which we are to walk in. All of our works which are part of the justification spoken of in Eph 2:8-10 are by the grace of God. These are his gifts. Life in the flesh is from Satan. We can live in the household to the greater glory of God or we can leave the household and return to a life in the flesh and reap accordingly.

2 Peter 2:19-22 puts this latter point this way:

“They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved. **For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. ** For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.”

 

[moondweller]

ralphinal:

I am missing a step in your logic. If Jesus told them that as the Father has sent me, I send you and he said whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven and whose sins you retain, they are retained, does that not give them the authority to fogive sins?

No. Actually He doesn’t say if you forgive the sins of any they will be forgiven. If you retain the sins of any they will be retained. He says they “have been,” as in, have previously been. This carries the sense of proclamation.

You’re missing a step in my logic because you add a step of your own (confession).

 

[Reformed]

It does come down to imputed and infused grace, doesn’t it? I believe we are infused with grace as in sanctifying grace for those who are already adopted children of God. However, our justification is (name removed by moderator)uted to us because our basis is on the grounds of Christ’s righteousness alone (perfect righteousness). If you guys consider that you are adopted children of God, why do you think that our all powerful Father in Heaven will loose some of His adopted children whom Christ purchased? Do you believe the work of Christ is not sufficient enough, powerful enough, or effectual enough for some of God’s adopted children? Paul has already claimed the title of chief sinner. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. So, why can some in Christ be lost? It cannot be because of personal sins since Christ already saved the greatest proclaimed sinner. I believe God incarnate destroyed the work of the devil. I think you answer to these questions are doctrines created by the magestrium and do not come from God. The person and work of Christ is 100% effectual to all whom the Father gave Christ to rescue from their sins. Why such a low view on the person and work of Christ for those whom God foreknew? Again, consider the Scirptures:

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 8

 

[moondweller]

cazayoux:

Granted, all power is from God. Don’t you think God can give power to men? Didn’t the apostles heal and drive out demons using the power given to them by Jesus?

This is a misconception. No man is given such power in that the power now organically resides in the man and he uses it at will. Men can be used by God (conduits) to perform His power through them, but they are not given the power. God is no fool. This is shown by example when Jesus sent out His disciples to preach the gospel of the kingdom (not the gospel of salvation through faith in Christ) and gave them authority to heal and cast out demons (Matt. 10). But later they had no power to cast out a demon in a boy (Matt. 17). Neither the authority nor the power was their own. Jesus Himself walked on this earth not as God, but as a man used by God to do His will:Luke 5:17 "One day He was teaching; and there were {some} Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting {there,} who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and {from} Jerusalem; and the power of the Lord was {present} for Him to perform healing.

okay … so you don’t like the word power.
Did Jesus tell the apostles themselves to forgive or retain sins of others?

I already answered you. But you did not answer mine:

moondweller:

I answered your question. Now here’s a couple for you? Is there anything said about forgiving or retaining sins based on confessing them in that verse? And can you show me by example where the Apostles acted as priestly Confessors?

You make it sound like confessing your sins isn’t found in scripture. We’ll get to sacramental confession soon, but first admit that scripture tells us to confess our sins.

Matt.3
[6] and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mark.1
[5] And there went out to him all the country of Judea, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

This was the ministry of John the Baptist to the nation of Israel. He was not an Apostle sent out with the message of the cross of Christ and the proclamation of the forgiveness of sins through faith in Him (Acts 10:43). He was preparing the way of the coming of Messiah to their nation, not declaring the sacrificial work of the Messiah.

Jas.5 [16] Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

Already addressed this verse. This is not said in the context of confessing sins for the purpose of Divine, judicial forgiveness.

1 John.1 [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This statement is not addressed to believers but unbelievers. The word for confess here is omologômen and means to acknowledge sins. The personal pronoun “we” is expressed in a general sense, not specific. * In context* John was addressing those who denied even the concept of sin (i.e., gnostics). In verse eight he says: “If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us (hence, an unbeliever).” In verse ten he states: “If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar (because God says ALL sinned, in Adam, and are continually falling short of the glory of God), and His word is not in us” (again, the mark of an unbeliever). John is not teaching sacramental confession in these passages. Not even close. Nor does he ever, in his writings, advocate personally confessing sins to him for absolution. Nor does Paul or Peter or even James. Nor does Luke record such occurrences in his historical account in the Book of Acts.

It’s just not there, caza. This all developed AFTER the Apostolic age and apart from Apostolic teaching and the gospel of grace proclaimed by them.

 

[Reformed]

It does come down to imputed and infused grace, doesn’t it? I believe we are infused with grace as in sanctifying grace for those who are already adopted children of God. However, our justification is (name removed by moderator)uted to us because our basis of our peace with God is on the sole grounds of Christ’s righteousness alone (perfect righteousness). If you guys consider that you are adopted children of God, why do you think that our all powerful Father in Heaven will loose some of His adopted children whom Christ purchased? Do you believe the work of Christ is not sufficient enough, powerful enough, or effectual enough for some of God’s adopted children? Paul has already claimed the title of chief sinner. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. So, why can some in Christ be lost? It cannot be because of personal sins since Christ already saved the greatest proclaimed sinner. I believe God incarnate destroyed the work of the devil. I think you answer to these questions are doctrines created by the magestrium and do not come from God. The person and work of Christ is 100% effectual to all whom the Father gave Christ to rescue from their sins. Why such a low view on the person and work of Christ for those whom God foreknew? Again, consider the Scirptures:

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 8

 

[Reformed]

Pax…please consider the truth of Romans 5:

Peace with God Through Faith

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

 

[Pax]

It does come down to imputed and infused grace, doesn’t it? I believe we are infused with grace as in sanctifying grace for those who are already adopted children of God. However, our justification is (name removed by moderator)uted to us because our basis is on the grounds of Christ’s righteousness alone (perfect righteousness). If you guys consider that you are adopted children of God, why do you think that our all powerful Father in Heaven will loose some of His adopted children whom Christ purchased? Do you believe the work of Christ is not sufficient enough, powerful enough, or effectual enough for some of God’s adopted children? Paul has already claimed the title of chief sinner. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. So, why can some in Christ be lost? It cannot be because of personal sins since Christ already saved the greatest proclaimed sinner. I believe God incarnate destroyed the work of the devil. I think you answer to these questions are doctrines created by the magestrium and do not come from God.
…
…

Salvation can be lost. I gave you a little scripture from Peter to demonstrate the point but there is an awful lot more. I have personally researched more than 65 passages of scripture that demonstrate the provisional nature of salvation and the fact that it can be lost. I can give these to you if you want them. Just PM me with an email address and I’ll send you the file.

It is not a matter of God not having the power to save us. He has the power and has exercised it in the redemption of the whole world. That does not mean that everyone is saved. God saves through the redemptive work of His son, but God also preserves our freedom in the process. That is why salvation is referred to as a gift as opposed to a “mandatory, imperative, and irreversible declaration.”

Catholics agree that there is a juridical sense in justification. There may be more agreement here than you realize especially since you believe in an infusion of grace.

The expressions by the Church concerning God’s plan of salvation and one’s freedom to choose to turn from His gifts are not made up. It is all in scripture.

 

[Reformed]

Salvation can be lost. I gave you a little scripture from Peter to demonstrate the point but there is an awful lot more. I have personally researched more than 65 passages of scripture that demonstrate the provisional nature of salvation and the fact that it can be lost. I can give these to you if you want them. Just PM me with an email address and I’ll send you the file.

It is not a matter of God not having the power to save us. He has the power and has exercised it in the redemption of the whole world. That does not mean that everyone is saved. God saves through the redemptive work of His son, but God also preserves our freedom in the process. That is why salvation is referred to as a gift as opposed to a “mandatory, imperative, and irreversible declaration.”

Catholics agree that there is a juridical sense in justification. There may be more agreement here than you realize especially since you believe in an infusion of grace.

The expressions by the Church concerning God’s plan of salvation and one’s freedom to choose to turn from His gifts are not made up. It is all in scripture.

What does it mean to be a new creature in Christ? What is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in effectiveness of being transformed? Please consider the book of Hebrews too.

Ezekil 11 and 36

Israel’s New Heart and Spirit

14 And the word of the Lord came to me: 15 “Son of man, your brothers, even your brothers, your kinsmen, [2] the whole house of Israel, all of them, are those of whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, ‘Go far from the Lord; to us this land is given for a possession.’ 16 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: Though I removed them far off among the nations, and though I scattered them among the countries, yet I have been a sanctuary to them for a while [3] in the countries where they have gone.’ 17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’ 18 And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. 19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose heart goes after their detestable things and their abominations, I will [4] bring their deeds upon their own heads, declares the Lord God.”

22 Then the cherubim lifted up their wings, with the wheels beside them, and the glory of the God of Israel was over them. 23 And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city and stood on the mountain that is on the east side of the city. 24 And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me in the vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to the exiles. Then the vision that I had seen went up from me. 25 And I told the exiles all the things that the Lord had shown me.

I Will Put My Spirit Within You

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. [1] 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

Jer 31

The New Covenant

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

 

[Reformed]

What does it mean to be a new creature in Christ? What is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in effectiveness of being transformed? Please consider the book of Hebrews.

Ezekil 11 and 36

Israel’s New Heart and Spirit

14 And the word of the Lord came to me: 15 “Son of man, your brothers, even your brothers, your kinsmen, [2] the whole house of Israel, all of them, are those of whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, ‘Go far from the Lord; to us this land is given for a possession.’ 16 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: Though I removed them far off among the nations, and though I scattered them among the countries, yet I have been a sanctuary to them for a while [3] in the countries where they have gone.’ 17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’ 18 And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. 19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose heart goes after their detestable things and their abominations, I will [4] bring their deeds upon their own heads, declares the Lord God.”

22 Then the cherubim lifted up their wings, with the wheels beside them, and the glory of the God of Israel was over them. 23 And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city and stood on the mountain that is on the east side of the city. 24 And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me in the vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to the exiles. Then the vision that I had seen went up from me. 25 And I told the exiles all the things that the Lord had shown me.

I Will Put My Spirit Within You

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. [1] 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

Jer 31

The New Covenant

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

 

[moondweller]

Pax:

We are not only freed from original sin, but we are cleansed from personal sin as well. Moreover, we are freed from committing sin.

This is an erroneous statement:Rom 6:7 “…for he who has died is freed from sin.”

Rom 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Rom 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.Nowhere does Paul teach that the believer is freed from “committing” sin. That is your own added concept. Paul states that the believer has been “freed from sin” having been co-crucified with Christ, co-buried with Him and raised to new life “in Him.”

Christ not only died FOR our sins, after our sins were imputed to Him on the cross, as our Substitute “He died to (unto) *sin, once for all” (Rom. 6:10). Those were our sins and they were buried with Christ, once for all. He rose to new life apart from those sins to which He died unto. Paul then states:Rom 6:11 Even so consider (reckon) yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.This all has to do with the believer’s (Divinely revealed) new position/identification in the risen Christ. His new position in the “last Adam.” All who the believer was in the first Adam (dead in trespasses and sins) was crucified with Christ, buried with Him, but subsequently raised to new life with the risen Christ, and seated with Him in the heavenly:Eph 2:4-6 “But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,”

Col 3:1-4 "Therefore if (since) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory."This is the life of faith the believer is called to live as exampled by Paul himself:Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."No man on this earth is “freed from committing sin.” But the true believer, now in the risen, glorified Christ, has been “freed from sin.” This is Divine revelation. It is how God now sees him.

This side of the cross sin is not the issue, but belief.John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”…says Jesus.Rom 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus…says Paul.

He is “freed from sin” having died with Christ to it and raised to new life in/with Him.*