There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[Reformed]

That presents no problem to Catholic theology. All those given by the Father for glorification will come to Christ and none will be lost. It’s just a variant of the passage from Romans 8. All those predestined for glory will be called, justified, glorified. The problem is that not all of those who are justified are predestined to glory, as illustrated by passages like John 15 and Hebrews 6.

God Bless,
Michael

I don’t follow your position. Please help me understand it?

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - The Holy Scriptures

 

[M0nkey]

I Am the Bread of Life

He is talking about His real presence in the Eucharist.

… Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

Again, His presence is very real in the Eucharist. He is the embodiment of the manna that came down from Heaven and our Fathers (in the faith, the Jewish people) ate.

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

I take it your theology does not allow for literal interpretation. The Son of Man came down to be obedient to the Father so that we may live. Just as Adam through disobedience brought death into the world. The Son of Man came and through obedience brought life into the world.

So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

This is a hard teaching to accept, as it has to the Jews. The Eucharist has been and will always be His true presence. Therefore, you must eat His flesh and drink His blood.

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

• John 6

The 12 Apostles come from the 12 tribes of Israel. This gives us insight as it can only mean the whole Church, or the One True Church.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, those whom the Father foreknew, those who were chosen before the foundations of the world to the praise of His glory.

I would suggest to start reading that whole passage in full context, not take one snip of it and interpret it as you like.

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - The Holy Scriptures

God calls us to His purpose. He does not demand, nor force us into conversion. We in return must answer to His call and say yes, just as Our Lady said yes to God, so we too must say yes to Him.

 

[Philthy]

What you say here, Phil, doesn’t even address the subject.

Of course it does - what you mean to say is you dont understand why I presented it.

If you’re not a true believer you’re to do nothing with it - it doesn’t pertain to you. If you are, you’re to believe it. If you can’t understand it, then you’ve got a problem - a BIG one (1 Cor. 1:14).

This sure clears it up: either I perfectly “understand it” to mean what you say it means, or I do not and then…what, exactly? Should I try to understand it? That cant be right - that would be a work if Im not mistaken, and we all know that individual efforts and cooperation with Gods promptings obviate your notion of sola fide.
Then again, scripture tells me: Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that you may discern what God’ will is: what is good and pleasing and perfect.

And the resurrection of Christ is not just an historical event celebrated at Easter.

I forgive you for this malicious, irrelevent and unprompted comment. I hope that you actually find the peace which you claim to already have.

 

[Reformed]

Would the Council of Trent condemn the Apostle Paul for his great confidence and assurance that nothing can seperate Him from the love of God in Christ Jesus? Please notice that Paul stated that nothing in all creation (including himself and Satan) would be able to seperate him from being in Christ.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 8

How about rejoicing with me in Christian unity with “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!”.Isn’t God much bigger, and His grace much superior than your ability to apostate?

2 Corinthians 12:9

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/funny-pictures-joy-water-elephant.jpg

Rejoice in the Lord with me in Christian Unity (John 17)!

 

[mikeledes]

I don’t follow your position. Please help me understand it?

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - The Holy Scriptures

Sure! How does the “Golden Chain” begin? After foreknowledgse comes predestined. How does it end? It ends with glorified. So this passage is about those who are predestined for glorification. Catholics believe - and Augustine taught - that all those who are predestined will be called, justified, and glorified. To this number, none can be added and none can be lost. That’s why the Catholic Church teaches that the number of those elect for glory is immutable. However, the fact that the Bible indicates that a truly justified person can be lost (John 15, Romans11, Hebrews 6 & 10, etc.), means that not all of the just belong to the group mentioned in passages like John 6 and Romans 8. That’s why a Catholic can affirm the truth expressed in Romans 8 and John 6 and also accept the truths revealed to us in verses like John 15 and Hebrews 6 as written.

Passages like John 6 and Romans 8 are problematic for Arminians. In the Arminian system, it is really man that elects himself and God’s role is to make this election formal. It’s sort of like the role of the Queen of Great Britain. A law becomes a law when it is signed by the Queen, but real executive and legislative power is in the hands of the Prime Minister and the Parliament. So Arminians must engage in elaborate explanations to explain these passages away.

Passages like those John 15, Hebrews 6 & 10, Ezekiel 18 & 33 are problematic for Calvinists. John 15 is a good case in point. Calvinists offer two contradictory interpretations of that passage. Some, like yourself, believe that the branches in question are not true Christians. Others believe that the branches are true Christians and that “taken away” and “cast into the fire and burned” is not a reference to hell. So we end up with the following explanations. Jesus expressly says ‘in Me’ in verse 2 but He really doesn’t mean ‘in Me’, but apparently he means “in me” in the other verses in that chapter. Or “'Cast into the fire is nota reference to hell”, despite the fact that everytime Jesus uses that phrase during His preaching ministry He always uses it as a reference to eternal damnation. Or “The ‘righteous’ in those passages in Ezekiel are not really righteous,” despite the fact that God Himself has described them as such and has even reaffirmed it in one passage by saying “he shall surely live.” Or “The ‘renew again to repentance’ verse in Hebrews 6 is not referring to real repentance,” despite the fact that the words “renew” and “again” are used and that renewing again to false repentance makes absolutely no sense.

So, for Catholics, those passages in Romans 8 and John 6 refer to those elect for glory. All of the predestined will be called, justified, and glorified. However, not all of the justified are numbered among the predestined and these are the ones referred to in passages like John 15, Hebrews 6 & 10, Ezekiel 18 & 33, etc.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/funny-pictures-joy-water-elephant.jpg

You must really love that cable channel, “Animal Planet.”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

You must really love that cable channel, “Animal Planet.”

God Bless,
Michael

That is one happy creature of God, isn’t it? How’s your joy in the Lord? We are commanded to rejoice in the Lord always. To be happy in the Lord is very serious business according to Scripture. Have you read much of John Piper and Christian hedonism? Good biblical God-centered thelogy grows our joy in the Lord. Unbibilical man-centered theology robs our joy in the Lord. Truth matters (John 17:17).

 

[mikeledes]

That is one happy creature of God, isn’t it? How’s your joy in the Lord? We are commanded to rejoice in the Lord always. To be happy in the Lord is very serious business according to Scripture. Have you read much of John Piper and Christian hedonism? Good biblical God-centered thelogy grows our joy in the Lord. Unbibilical man-centered theology robs our joy in the Lord. Truth matters (John 17:17).

I have great joy in the Lord and I always rejoice in the truth, that’s why I’m Catholic. I am familiar with John Piper and his Desiring God Ministries, though I am not familiar with that particular work.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

I have great joy in the Lord and I always rejoice in the truth, that’s why I’m Catholic. I am familiar with John Piper and his Desiring God Ministries, though I am not familiar with that particular work.

God Bless,
Michael

I have no way to know with complete certainity who’s in Christ. But I know there is a remnant in the Catholic Church. I think we have much in common brother.

 

[mikeledes]

I have no way to know with complete certainity who’s in Christ. But I know there is a remnant in the Catholic Church. I think we have much in common brother.

Thanks. Do Calvinists have complete certainty that they are of the elect?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

How about rejoicing with me in Christian unity

with “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!”.Isn’t God much bigger, and His grace much superior than your ability to apostate?

And yet such a separation is possible according to the Bible:

There can be false professors in the “visible church,” but there can never be false professor in Christ, spiritually united to Him. In John 15, what does the vine represent? For your argument to stand, the vine must represent the church or the people of God. However, Jesus clearly defines His own terms:

1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches;

As per Christ, the Vine does not represent a congregation, organized body, or "visible"church. The vine represents the person of Christ. There is not a single time in John where Jesus uses “I AM” to mean any person, place, or thing other than Himself. Hence, Christ is using metaphor to describe spiritual realities, not earthly ones. Mere membership in a congregation represents an earthly reality if one is not spiritually united to Christ. So since the Vine stands for Christ, the branches stand for those who are united to Christ - having become members of His Body - just as a branch is united to Christ and is a member of the vine’s “body.” That’s why Christ explicitly identifies the “branches” as representing the remaining apostles and no one will question that they have been spiritually united to Christ, just as a branch is united to the vine.

Regarding the branches that are “taken away,” it is Christ Himself who describes them as being in Me, not “in My Church” or “in a Christian congregation.” Who is “me?” Christ! So the branch in me is a person in Christ.

Now if “in me” means “my visible body”, then - to be consistent - every time Jesus uses “in me” in John 15, He means “in my visible body.” Otherwise, we end up with a completely arbitrary way of defining terms, making verse 2 the only time in John 15 where “in me” means “my visible body.” And when we replace every “in me” with “my visible body,” we end up with utter nonsense:

**2"Every branch in my visible body that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in my visible body, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in my visible body.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in my visible body and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in my visible body he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

So is Christ saying that we must abide in His visible body to bear fruit? That the power to bear fruit comes from merely maintaining membership in a congregation? So if we remain members of a congregation, we will not be thrown away and cast into the fire? That makes no sense. If “in me” means having a vital spiritual union with Christ in verses 4, 5, 6, why does mean “membership in my visible body” in verse 2?

In addition, Christ uses the word abide (Gk “meno”). The William MacDonald’s Believer’s Bible Commentary correctly defines “abide” as meaning “stay where you are.” “Meno” in Greek means to continue in the place, condition, or state one is already in:

studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3306

A couple of examples where this word is used in the Bible are:

Acts 16:15

And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay ."

1 Corinthians 7:9, 20

9but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband ), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

So in order to abide or not abide, one must first be in the place or condition abide is making reference to. You must first enter a house before you can abide/remain/stay in it. So if a person does not abide in Christ, it means that they were in Christ first. Otherwise, how can you cease to continue or remain in something you were never a part of.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

How about rejoicing with me in Christian unity with “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!”.Isn’t God much bigger, and His grace much superior than your ability to apostate?

Ezekiel 3:20-21

**20"Again, when a righteous man **turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
21"However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself."

Ezekiel 33:13

**13"When I say to the righteous **he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.

If a person is righteous he or she has obvioulsy received the gifts of faith and justification. Who is describing this person as righteous in these passages? GOD! Therefore, this person is righteous in His sight. This is reaffirmed by the phrase “he will surely live.” That phrase means Divine approval and is only used when God is referring to someone truly righteous (Ezekiel 3:21, 18:17, etc.) or to a wicked person who has truly repented and has been forgiven (Ezekiel 18:21). God will never approve someone who is a false professor. In the above case, the person has become presumptous and turned away from his righteosness after receiving approval from God ("when I say to the righteous he shall surely live…). The truth expressed by Ezekiel is reaffirmed by Jesus in:

Luke 12:40-46

40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
41 Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Note that the servant begins faithful and wise - that’s why he’s given a position of authority over the other servants - but then abuses his authority and turns to a licentious life. What is his end? Eternal damnation. Now combine this with passages like John 15 and Hebrews 6.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

Thanks. Do Calvinists have complete certainty that they are of the elect?

God Bless,
Michael

Here is a link to John Piper’s ministry if anyone cares.

desiringgod.org/

I think assurance varies per person, and per season in a person’s life. I think even our joy in the Lord fluctuates too (if we are truthful). I believe Charles Spurgeon struggled with assurance as well as other faithful Christians. My wife struggles with assurance as compared to myself. I see assurance as a gift of God and a grace. However, if we fall back into a sinful lifestyle, there can’t be authentic assurance without repentance. Maybe Peter’s consel of making our election and calling sure is wise to follow, don’t you think?

 

[mikeledes]

Here is a link to John Piper’s ministry if anyone cares.

desiringgod.org/

I think assurance varies per person, and per season in a person’s life. I think even our joy in the Lord fluctuates too (if we are truthful). I believe Charles Spurgeon struggled with assurance as well as other faithful Christians. My wife struggles with assurance as compared to myself. I see assurance as a gift of God and a grace. However, if we fall back into a sinful lifestyle, there can’t be authentic assurance without repentance. Maybe Peter’s consel of making our election and calling sure is wise to follow, don’t you think?

Are you certain that you are of the elect?

God bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

The reason I push for confidence and assurance in the Lord is for our joy in the Lord. If we do not see the person and work of Christ as sufficient for us, our love for God will dimish with guilt and fear. My confidence is never in myself, but in God alone as He is faithful and just to keep His Word…for His own glory and name sake. I see the error of Roman Catholicism as the extreme opposite of the error of easy believism.

1 John 4:18

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

 

[mikeledes]

The reason I push for confidence and assurance in the Lord is for our joy in the Lord. If we do not see the person and work of Christ as sufficient for us, our love for God will dimish with guilt and fear.

But is this assurance or confidence absolute or infallible? Are you certain you are of the elect?

God bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

But is this assurance or confidence absolute or infallible? Are you certain you are of the elect?

God bless,
Michael

We are as certain by our affections for God. If someone who professed Christ and looks like the real thing, and falls back into the world later in life and becomes dominated by the flesh…there should be no assurance. Evidence of being converted is true repentance and leaving the idols of the heart and back to God as our ultimate joy and treasure. Scripture reveals that repentance and discipline is granted to us from God. It is a return back to faith in the promises of God in the person and work of Jesus Christ in our behalf. But, isn’t that the true Christian life for all of us in degrees? What does John tells us at the end of his 1st letter?

 

[East_and_West]

We are as certain by our affections for God. If someone who professed Christ and looks like the real thing, and falls back into the world later in life and becomes dominated by the flesh…there should be no assurance. Evidence of being converted is true repentance and leaving the idols of the heart and back to God as our ultimate joy and treasure. Scripture reveals that repentance and discipline is granted to us from God. It is a return back to faith in the promises of God in the person and work of Jesus Christ in our behalf. But, isn’t that the true Christian life for all of us in degrees? What does John tells us at the end of his 1st letter?

He tells us that there is such a thing as mortal sin and that prayer is not enough to deal with it.

 

[East_and_West]

We are as certain by our affections for God. If someone who professed Christ and looks like the real thing, and falls back into the world later in life and becomes dominated by the flesh…there should be no assurance. Evidence of being converted is true repentance and leaving the idols of the heart and back to God as our ultimate joy and treasure. Scripture reveals that repentance and discipline is granted to us from God. It is a return back to faith in the promises of God in the person and work of Jesus Christ in our behalf. But, isn’t that the true Christian life for all of us in degrees? What does John tells us at the end of his 1st letter?

How do I know I have “true” repentence versus “false” repentence?

 

[Reformed]

He tells us that there is such a thing as mortal sin and that prayer is not enough to deal with it.

I’m speaking of the last thing the Apostle John writes to us.

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. 1 John 5