M
mikeledes
Guest
Hi Triuneunity! I’m glad to see that you have not left the building!
How does a Lutheran defend confession and absolution?God Bless,
Michael
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
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How does a Lutheran defend confession and absolution?God Bless,
Michael
M
moondweller
Guest
I’ve read your posts, Pax. None of the Scriptures you present teach that men are ever “freed from committing sin.” Those verse state that the true believer,now in Christ, is free from the power of sin in one’s life. Free from the enslavement of sin. It’s what separates the believer from the unbeliever still dead (spiritually) in Adam.
No Apostle ever taught that a believer is “freed from committing sin,” but instead John write:1 John 2:1-2 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin (IOW, they’re not slaves to sin). And if anyone sins (IOW, sinning is still a reality), we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world."The propitiatory sacrifice of Christ judicially dealt with ALL the believer’s sins, once for all.
I have adequately pointed out to you the Apostolic doctrine which clearly states that the true believer has died with Christ who (as our Substitute) died unto/to sin (our imputed sins to Him), through His vicarious death on the cross, once for all, and the true believer, positionally, died with Him and was, subsequently, raised to new life with/in Him:Col 3:1-3 “Therefore if (since) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.”
Eph 2:4-10 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."The Apostolic teaching is:Rom 6:7 “…for he who has died is freed from sin.”
Rom 6:18 “…and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.”
Rom 6:22 "But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome (which is immediate), eternal life."Not at all “freed from committing sin.” One would have to be free from this yet unredeemed body for that reality to occur - which is a future reality (Phil. 2:20-21).
The true believer is no longer in Adam, but now in the risen Christ (the “Last Adam”), who died “to sin” (our sins) once for all and was raised to new life (and we with Him). That’s why Paul could confidently write:Rom 8:1 “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
M
moondweller
Guest
That passage states nothing about their forgiving sins “in Jesus’ name.” You’re adding that to the verse. Secondly, there is no presupposition of confessing sins to the Apostles indicated in that verse. And as I’ve pointed out before, nor is there ANY historical evidence that such activity ever occurred.
What you are doing, however, is imposing on that verse a developed, post Apostolic doctrine. IOW, a doctrine that cannot be traced back to them.
Already addressed this verse. You may go back and read it.
This verse does not at all support your argument.
I did explain my view. Go back and read it. You have yet to provide any historical account where men lined up to confess sins to the Apostles for absolution or the fear that they might be retained by them (which obviously would have occurred on a daily basis - ALL DAY). And you have yet to show where the Apostles actually taught such a doctrine or even passed such a subjective power on to others. Neither elders (overseers) nor deacons were instructed to hear confessions.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Confession is necessary as a fruit of repentance. That is to say, without repentance and contrition, no faith is truly present. While we do not require a confessor, because the means of grace in absolution is delivered by a pastor, it is normative that the person confess their sins publically. This may be done privately, or as part of corporate worship in the act of contrition said during the liturgy.Hi Triuneunity! I’m glad to see that you have not left the building!
God Bless,
Michael
Absolution is the proclamation of the gospel; that Jesus has died for our sins and reconciled us to God; if we believe this, we are saved. The words of the absolution state it succintly; “Upon this your confession, I, as a called and ordained servant of the word, forgive you all your sins, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”
We would use the same chief text of John 20 for this. At least, the Small Catechism does. It is an announcement of something that is already true. That Christ has reconciled us to God. Absolution is the ministry of reconciliation because it must be appropriated subjectively by the individual.
P
PerryJ
Guest
Didache:
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life” 4:14
On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" 14:1
This is around the year 70 AD. There is historical evidence of confession.
M
mikeledes
Guest
So Lutherans do not believe sins are remitted in confesssion and absolution?God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Neither does the passage say “proclaim that sins have been forgiven.” That is being added to the text. The verb (forgive) applies to the subject (apostles) and is a word of action. That’s basic grammar. To preach forgiveness of sins is one thing. To forgive sins is another. The former is passive, the latter is active. And they cannot forgive sins unless they hear them. That’s the only way they can if the person is repentant. Consequently, for the apostles to forgive, there must be confession.
And can you tell me which post you explain what retaining sins mean? I only see your explanations on what forgiveness means.
God Bless,
Michael
M
moondweller
Guest
Please! Don’t just throw things out. It states NOTHING about confessing sins to an individual FOR absolution or that they might be retained by him.
M
moondweller
Guest
You’re dancing, Mike. And you have yet to give me an example of sins being retained by an Apostle upon confession of them. You admit to never even having any of your confessed sins retained.
L
Love_is_Patient
Guest
Thank you for your response. I appreciate that you took the time to answer me.
To continue our conversation, I guess I’m having a hard time reconciling this:
With this:
It just seems to me, and I might be misunderstanding you, that there is no need for hope here. You’ve already got assurance that you’re saved, no matter what you do.
Why is hope important for Calvinist Christians?
God bless,
Love is Patient
R
Reformed
Guest
If Protestants trust in man made religions, then how can the Magestrium call us your seperated brethren? I didn’t know man made religions can save sinners.
R
Reformed
Guest
Interesting question. I know there is a difference between hope and faith, but they seem very related. We walk by faith and not by sight. And we know faith pleases God. Hebrews 11 is about faith too. Let me get back to you on hope. Or, share your belief on hope. Thanks!Thank you for your response. I appreciate that you took the time to answer me.
To continue our conversation, I guess I’m having a hard time reconciling this:
With this:
It just seems to me, and I might be misunderstanding you, that there is no need for hope here. You’ve already got assurance that you’re saved, no matter what you do.
Why is hope important for Calvinist Christians?
God bless,
These are some of my favorite chapters in the Bible. I noticed the word hope is used. Maybe hope increases our faith, but I’m not sure.Romans 5
Peace with God Through Faith
5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we [1] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith [2] into this grace in which we stand, and we [3] rejoice [4] in hope of the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Future Glory - rom 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Maybe I found the answer in the Bible!
By Faith -Hebrews 11
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
M
mikeledes
Guest
There is no dancing here. The point is that you claim that when Jesus says to the apostles" If you forgive the sins of any," he is merely talking about the preaching or proclamation of forgiveness. Jesus does not say that. He says if you forgive, not if you preach forgiveness. If Jesus meant mere preaching forgiveness, he would have said that. And if that is what Jesus meant, what he said would absolutely make no sense:
23 If you *preach the forgiveness of sins *, they are forgiven them…
So is Jesus saying to preach the forgiveness of sins to those whose sins have already been forgiven? That makes no sense. Besides, what Jesus says here is related to what he told the apostles earlier:
Matthew 18:18
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Regarding retaining sins, a confessor withholds absolution when there is good reason to believe the person is not truly repentant. It’s not that he forgive certain sins and retains the others. Now can you point to the post where you explain how apostles retain sins?
God Bless,
Michael
R
Reformed
Guest
Please give me the Roman Catholic view in a nutshell in regards to Catholic Priests forgiving sins. If I don’t go through a Catholic Priest for forgiveness, are you saying that my sins are not forgiven in Christ? I’m just trying to follow you guys on this one.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Yes, they are. Without confession and absolution sins would not ordinarily be remitted.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
So how is it a proclamation of sins that have already been forgiven?
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
The sacrament of confession is for those who have committed sins after they have been baptized. The Catholic Encyclopedia states the following:
**No Catholic believes that a priest simply as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; but He can and does exercise it through the ministration of men. Since He has seen fit to exercise it by means of this sacrament, it cannot be said that the Church or the priest interferes between the soul and God; on the contrary, penance is the removal of the one obstacle that keeps the soul away from God. **
We believe that God exercises His power to forgive through the sacrament of confession.
God Bless,
Michael
R
Reformed
Guest
Since Protestants do not have the sacrament of confession, what happens to the sins of Protestants?
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
We divide justification into two categories; objective and subjective. Objective justification was accomplished on the cross. Christ reconciled mankind to God the Father. In this sense, it is a proclamation of sins already given. However, it is not of subjective value to the individual until faith in that proclamation is given through the means of grace (which would include absolution). The means of grace create faith in the subjective individual, thus applying the objective to them.
Proclamation = Christ has died for the sins of the world, repent and believe (objective).
Absolution = Christ has paid for your sins and forgiven YOU (subjective).
R
ralphinal
Guest
That view would not be problematic to Catholics, I don’t think. I may be wrong.
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