There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[mikeledes]

Since Protestants do not have the sacrament of confession, what happens to the sins of Protestants?

God is not limited to the sacrament of confession in order to forgive sins.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

We divide justification into two categories; objective and subjective. Objective justification was accomplished on the cross. Christ reconciled mankind to God the Father. In this sense, it is a proclamation of sins already given. However, it is not of subjective value to the individual until faith in that proclamation is given through the means of grace (which would include absolution). The means of grace create faith in the subjective individual, thus applying the objective to them.

Proclamation = Christ has died for the sins of the world, repent and believe (objective).

Absolution = Christ has paid for your sins and forgiven YOU (subjective).

Thank you for clarifying! So confession and absolution in Lutherans involves the application of th objective to the one who is confessing and the means is the absolution given by the pastor?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[TriuneUnity]

Thank you for clarifying! So confession and absolution in Lutherans involves the application of th objective to the one who is confessing and the means is the absolution given by the pastor?

God Bless,
Michael

Yep

 

[mikeledes]

Yep

So the Lutheran view is not that different from the Catholic view in the sense that forgiveness actually occurs in confession and absolution. Thank you very much!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[TriuneUnity]

So the Lutheran view is not that different from the Catholic view in the sense that forgiveness actually occurs in confession and absolution. Thank you very much!

God Bless,
Michael

Yes; Baptism, the Lord’s Supper, etc, are also the same means of grace applying the benefits won on the cross for us.

 

[PerryJ]

God is not limited to the sacrament of confession in order to forgive sins.

God Bless,
Michael

True with special circumstances correct?

For example one does not have the ability to get to a Priest. (I am referring to mortal sins.)

One committing a mortal sin; but, not being culpable.

Perhaps a Protestant that does not understand the sacrament.

If a Protestant or Catholic knows and understands the sacrament still rejects the sacrament would they be forgiven for a mortal sin?

 

[Pax]

I’ve read your posts, Pax. None of the Scriptures you present teach that men are ever “freed from committing sin.” Those verse state that the true believer,now in Christ, is free from the power of sin in one’s life. Free from the enslavement of sin. It’s what separates the believer from the unbeliever still dead (spiritually) in Adam.

No Apostle ever taught that a believer is “freed from committing sin,” but instead John write:1 John 2:1-2 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin (IOW, they’re not slaves to sin). And if anyone sins (IOW, sinning is still a reality), we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world."The propitiatory sacrifice of Christ judicially dealt with ALL the believer’s sins, once for all.

I have adequately pointed out to you the Apostolic doctrine which clearly states that the true believer has died with Christ who (as our Substitute) died unto/to sin (our imputed sins to Him), through His vicarious death on the cross, once for all, and the true believer, positionally, died with Him and was, subsequently, raised to new life with/in Him:Col 3:1-3 “Therefore if (since) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.”

Eph 2:4-10 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."The Apostolic teaching is:Rom 6:7 “…for he who has died is freed from sin.”

Rom 6:18 “…and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.”

Rom 6:22 "But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome (which is immediate), eternal life."Not at all “freed from committing sin.” One would have to be free from this yet unredeemed body for that reality to occur - which is a future reality (Phil. 2:20-21).

The true believer is no longer in Adam, but now in the risen Christ (the “Last Adam”), who died “to sin” (our sins) once for all and was raised to new life (and we with Him). That’s why Paul could confidently write:Rom 8:1 “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

Believe what you wish, but I stand by the scriptures and the clear meaning of the translations that I presented. Your spin is but your own.

 

[Pax]

You’re dancing, Mike. And you have yet to give me an example of sins being retained by an Apostle upon confession of them. You admit to never even having any of your confessed sins retained.

Just because Mike hasn’t had any of his sins retained, does not mean that others that lack a sincere repentance have not. You lack logic and common sense when dealing with this issue.

 

[Reformed]

True with special circumstances correct?

For example one does not have the ability to get to a Priest. (I am referring to mortal sins.)

One committing a mortal sin; but, not being culpable.

Perhaps a Protestant that does not understand the sacrament.

If a Protestant or Catholic knows and understands the sacrament still rejects the sacrament would they be forgiven for a mortal sin?

Very interesting. Sacred tradition requires more sacred tradition to deal with the original sacred tradition issue. It must be nice to makeup doctrine when issues arise. , and to declare it infallible. I understand why it is so important to claim apostolic succession and the infalliblity of the chair for Roman Catholicism. However, the Word of God (Holy Scriptures) does not change because God is immutable.

 

[ralphinal]

Very interesting. Sacred tradition requires more sacred traditon to deal with the original sacred tradition issue. It must be nice to makeup doctrine when issues arise. , and to declare it infallible.

No. It is not that complex.

If someone makes an invalid confession, they do not have any of their sins forgiven and they add a new one to it.

Look at it this way: is human cloning wrong according to scriptures?

 

[Reformed]

No. It is not that complex.

If someone makes an invalid confession, they do not have any of their sins forgiven and they add a new one to it.

Look at it this way: is human cloning wrong according to scriptures?

So, what’s an invalid confession since only God knows our heart?

1 John

The Word of Life

1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing these things so that our [1] joy may be complete.

Walking in the Light

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[ralphinal]

So, what’s an invalid confession since only God knows our heart?

If you intentionally do not confess a sin. You are trying to trick God in that case

Now, is human cloning a sin according to scriptures?

 

[Reformed]

If you intentionally do not confess a sin. You are trying to trick God in that case

Now, is human cloning a sin according to scriptures?

I’m not sure in regards to cloning. Roman Catholicism is quite a religion.

 

[ralphinal]

I’m not sure in regards to cloning. Roman Catholicism is quite a religion.

yes, it is wonderful.

Wow, so scripture is silent on HUman cloning? So it is wrong to do it or not?

See, that is the issue with sola Scriptura. The world changes but luckily, the Word of God does not. How do you apply the Word to situations that the Ancients could not comprehend?

 

[Reformed]

yes, it is wonderful.

Wow, so scripture is silent on HUman cloning? So it is wrong to do it or not?

See, that is the issue with sola Scriptura. The world changes but luckily, the Word of God does not. How do you apply the Word to situations that the Ancients could not comprehend?

I try not to go beyond what is written. Sometimes the wise thing to do is to be silent when Scripture is silent. I know that is a foreign concept for Rome. That is what a religion is about, a man -made attempt to appease deity. Debating and discussing issues with some Roman Catholic Christians is very similar to discussing and debating issues with LDS Christians.

 

[ralphinal]

I try not to go beyond what is written. Sometimes the wise thing to do is to be silent when Scripture is silent. I know that is a foreign concept for Rome. That is what a religion is about, a man -made attempt to appease deity.

So, as far as you are concerned, I can whip up a batch of Ralphs and use them to conquor the world? Or to do dirty jobs that I do not like?

God gave us the Church to help us stay close to him as time changed. That is logical.

There are many moral evils out there that the Bible does not talk about. How do we know which is which?

 

[cazayoux]

Very interesting. Sacred tradition requires more sacred traditon to deal with the original sacred tradition issue. It must be nice to makeup doctrine when issues arise. , and to declare it infallible.

Like the sacred Tradition of the canon of scripture.
And the Church declares it infallibly.

(Sorry for the long pause in the conversation on my end … long, intense work days)

now where were we …

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

moon keeps asking for a verse that shows people lining up to the apostles for sacramental confession. he even says that this cannot be found historically, which is the opposite of the truth. moon himself stated that the church introduced the wrong teaching of confession to a man very early in the church. i’m sure moon meant that confession to a man cannot be seen in scripture.

Let’s not jump the gun, however.
We still have not gotten past what the apostles are being told in the scripture above.

you and moon suggest that the apostles are being told to ‘declare’ sins forgiven. This is not what the text says.

The text says that it is the apostle that will forgive or retain sins.
Of course, this is through the power of the Holy Spirit (as we see in verse 22). This is also true of the apostles healing and performing miracles. The apostles healed, but it was through the power of the Holy Spirit.

moon states that thinking someone confesses their sins to an apostle is a stretch and is being read into the scripture.

I, and others, state that if the apostles are to do what Jesus said, they first have to KNOW what the sins are.
Is this a stretch?

Jesus didn’t give them the ability to read minds, so how will they know the sins … so they can then make the decision to forgive or retain?

THIS is the question we need a Calvinist to answer.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Debating and discussing issues with some Roman Catholic Christians is very similar to discussing and debating issues with LDS Christians.

not that again.

 

[mikeledes]

Yes; Baptism, the Lord’s Supper, etc, are also the same means of grace applying the benefits won on the cross for us.

So, being Lutheran, you would agree that John 20:23 assumes confession? Otherwise, how can the apostles forgive or retain sins if they don’t know if the person is repentant? The passage is veru clear. The verb (forgive) refers to the subject (you/ apostles). It says nothing about a mere preaching of forgiveness.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

So, what’s an invalid confession since only God knows our heart?

1 John

The Word of Life

1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing these things so that our [1] joy may be complete.

Walking in the Light

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If the person did not truly repent, then it is invalid, even if the priest gives the absolution. The absolution depends on repentance.

God Bless,
Michael