There's no OSAS

[brkn1]

WHOA… slow down hoss… the fundamental attribute of humanity is present in ALL people, not just christians, and that includes the free will and the thinking ability to forgive others. Removing the humanity of “others” is a dangerous proposition… it’s a first step towards condoning social or physical violence towards them.

You have only the need to look at how Jesus treated the gentiles, romans, tax collectors, etc, to see that the bible itself is horribly against the position that you just took here.

The fundamental attribute of humanity before being saved is that they are “children of wrath” and unable to do any real good of themselves in God’s eyes, even if it appears to be good by others. Only God is good as Jesus stated.
A saved person does not look at and act against his fellow man the way you describe by your absurd assumption and statement.

 

[brkn1]

Actually that isn’t what I was asking.
My question is, What significance is there in the line forgive us as we forgive for a person who is saved and cannot lose their salvation?

Peace
James

Forgiving others does not save us as you assume here. We are supposed to forgive others in obedience to God, not because it will cause God to save us, especially if God has already saved us. You simply can’t earn your salvation by works and the Bible confirms that. All of the works of yourself are as worthless rags before God, if it is not God working through you first to do good works.

 

[brkn1]

Calvinist Total Depravity doctrine, another doctrine as ilogical as Eternal Assurance rears her ugly head.

In my opinion that Total Depravity leads to distrust and bigotry. The usaved are not fully human beings and cannot be trusted because since they are not saved cannot do any good.

Where did you come up with the lie about the unsaved not being considered fully human. It is just an opinion on your part to make for a silly argument using a straw man, which you can easily defeat.

 

[vocatio]

James 1:26 “If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain.”

 

[holy_wood]

OSAS is obviously a lie, after reading scripture you have to be imbecilic to conclude otherwise.

** Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice**

**1 Cor. 4:4 **- Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. **Paul is not presumptuous **about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.

1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory “once saved, always saved.”**

2 Cor. 11:2-3** – Paul writes, “I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ.” The Corinthians already had a sincere devotion to Christ, for Paul wrote to them earlier in the letter, “you stand firm in your faith.” (2 Cor. 1:24). They are already “saved.” But Paul warns them that they can fall away just like Eve fell away (and, remember, Eve was created without sin!) This is another verse that is devastating to the belief of “once saved, always saved.”
**
Gal. 5:1 – Paul writes that the Galatians are free in Christ, but warns them to stand fast, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. You cannot be severed from Christ if you were never connected to Christ.** This warning applies to those who are connected to Christ in faith.

Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God’s grace. You cannot be severed from something unless you were previously connected to it.

Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling.** If “once saved, always saved” were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling? **What is there to fear if salvation is assured?

Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.

**Heb. 3:12 **– **the author warns the Hebrews to take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. **We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.

Heb. 3:13-14 – the author warns the Hebrews that they need to exhort one another every day, so that none of them may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Paul teaches that we share in Christ, but only if we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

**Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.

** Heb. 10:36: - we have the need of endurance, so that we may do the will of God and receive what is promised. **There is no need for endurance to get what is promised if salvation is assured.
**
1 Peter 1:14 – Peter warns that, as obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance. Thus, you can first be ignorant, then receive the truth and become obedient, and later revert back to the passions of your former ignorance.

2 Peter 2:20-22 - we can escape the defilements of the world through Jesus (predestined to grace) and then become entangled again therein.

2 Peter 3:16-17** - we can be the beloved of God and then lose our stability and carried away with the error of lawless men****.**

**1 John 1:7 **- if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.

**1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.
**
John 8 - look to yourselves, that you **may not lose what you have worked for. ** You can lose the grace you currently have.

Ezek. 3:20; 18:24; 33:12,13,18 – the Lord clearly teaches us in these verses that a righteous man can turn away from his righteousness and commit iniquity. He was righteous (there is nothing about having phony righteousness), but he fell away and chose unrighteousness. When he does, his prior good deeds shall be forgotten, and he shall die.

see also,

Heb. 4:1; Heb. 4:6,11; Heb. 6:4-6; Heb. 10:23-29

 

[promethius95945]

The fundamental attribute of humanity before being saved is that they are “children of wrath” and unable to do any real good of themselves in God’s eyes, even if it appears to be good by others. Only God is good as Jesus stated.
A saved person does not look at and act against his fellow man the way you describe by your absurd assumption and statement.

no person is a child of wrath. ALL people are children of God, and He loves each of his children omnibenevolently. You preach AGAINST Jesus when you go against His teachings on how to treat the romans, samaritans, tax collectors, and gentiles.

This line of thought is not only unchristian, but also fundamentally dangerous: “they’re not humans like us” has been the battle cry of jihaad, holocaust, slavery, klans, and even the latter crusades.

A saved person does not “act against his fellow man”? what do you think you just did when you just swathed non-believers… as “children of wrath” rather than children of God? You just dehumanized a great portion of humanity into beasts.

 

[JRKH]

OSAS is obviously a lie, after reading scripture you have to be imbecilic to conclude otherwise.

see also,

Heb. 4:1; Heb. 4:6,11; Heb. 6:4-6; Heb. 10:23-29

Holy_Wood,
Your post is most interesting and provides a great deal for brkn1, our bother in Christ to consider.

However I would caution you to refrain from using such terms as imbecilic when refering to anothers argument. Brkn1 may be in error, but the error is an honest one and to refer to him in a derogatory fashion only drives a wedge between us. This serves the evil one who rejoices at our infighting. It also is against Jesus admonition to love one another and to greet each other in Charity.

In all charity,
James

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
Actually that isn’t what I was asking.
My question is, What significance is there in the line forgive us as we forgive for a person who is saved and cannot lose their salvation?

Brkn1,
I am making no assumption as you seem to believe. I am trying to understand.
In the Lords Prayer, certain “models” are set out as to how we should pray. Included in this is the line about forgiveness and forgiving. I do not see how this line can be reconsiled with OSAS and your answers so far have not been convincing.
I have no illusions about my ability to “save myself” but I also have no illusions about my need to take an active role in my salvation, just as you did when you asked God to save you.
I believe you are an honest Child of God and follower of Christ. Your responses here have been most charitable and accomodating. I want to thank you for that. These discussions can become quite “testy” at times.

Now to the point. In this line of the Lords Prayer I am not “saving myself” but rather simply asking God’s just judgement on me based on my own treatment of others. It speaks to an active rather than passive role in my own salvation. As an example. It is as if I am lost at sea, floating in the ocean and a rescue helicopter comes and drops a rope. I must grab that rope and hold on or I will not be saved. Have I rescued myself? No, Have I assisted in my own rescue? Yes. How? By believing in the power of the helicopter and doing those things that are in my power to do.
It is not enough for me to simply say I did not break the commandments, but rather I must forgive any who, by breaking commandments, injure me. Will this save me? Am I saving myself? No because God Saves. He is the essential component. Am I assisting in my own salvation? Yes because I am doing those things that I am able to do which Glorify God.

I looked this up on Studylight.org and found it interesting:

Debts here, therefore, mean sins, or offences against God-- offences which none but God can forgive. The measure by which we may expect forgiveness is that which we use in reference to others. See Psalms 18:25,26; Matthew 18:28-35; Mark 11:25; Luke 11:4. This is the invariable rule by which God dispenses pardon.
(Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament – From Studylight.org)

I included the link above in case you haven’t seen the website. I have found it quite useful.

I honestly believe that much of what we christians wind up arguing about is symantics and emphasis. It’s pretty obvious that the Hebrews aren’t the only “Stiff Necked People” around.

Peace
James

 

[Ronald_E]

James, Thank you for that excellent post. The Lord’s Prayer is so perfect to remember as our foundation. God Bless. Ron

 

[promethius95945]

Brkn1,
…
In the Lords Prayer, certain “models” are set out as to how we should pray. Included in this is the line about forgiveness and forgiving…

not to mention the line that says “…And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil…”

If OSAS truly exists, and people can be “truly and irreversably” saved, then there is no reason for any believer to ask God to deliver him from evil… while one could argue that a “saved” person could still be tempted, no one could argue against this: if you’re already saved absolutely, you’re already delivered from evil. So either Jesus knew what He was talking about here (and I think He did), or we take Brkn’s word for it over both the bible and thousands of years of church teaching.

 

[holy_wood]

Holy_Wood,
Your post is most interesting and provides a great deal for brkn1, our bother in Christ to consider.

However I would caution you to refrain from using such terms as imbecilic when refering to anothers argument. Brkn1 may be in error, but the error is an honest one and to refer to him in a derogatory fashion only drives a wedge between us. This serves the evil one who rejoices at our infighting. It also is against Jesus admonition to love one another and to greet each other in Charity.

In all charity,
James

fair enough.
It is possible that Brkn1 may not have know about those verses.

 

[JRKH]

fair enough.
It is possible that Brkn1 may not have know about those verses.

I’ll let him speak for himself on that.
However I have repeatedly heard Sola Scriptura converts marvel at how they could have been so well versed in the Bible, and yet not seen the verses that ultimately led them into the church.

Peace
James

 

[brkn1]

Holy_Wood,
Your post is most interesting and provides a great deal for brkn1, our bother in Christ to consider.

However I would caution you to refrain from using such terms as imbecilic when refering to anothers argument. Brkn1 may be in error, but the error is an honest one and to refer to him in a derogatory fashion only drives a wedge between us. This serves the evil one who rejoices at our infighting. It also is against Jesus admonition to love one another and to greet each other in Charity.

In all charity,
James

I hope to be able to respond more tonight regarding what I see the problem is about OSAS to Catholics and many Protestants among others.
I don’t expect to convince anyone of my belief in OSAS, but it will at least give everyone an idea of why I believe in OSAS. There will be the added bonus of giving those who disagree with me more fodder to respond to.

I am interested if anyone, especially Promethius95945 could point me to Scripture that clearly supports post#46 : “No person is a child of wrath and ALL people are children of God.” I missed that idea in my reading the Bible.

Thanks for being a voice of moderation and charity, even though you strongly disagree with my position.

In Christ, brkn1

 

[JRKH]

I hope to be able to respond more tonight regarding what I see the problem is about OSAS to Catholics and many Protestants among others.
I don’t expect to convince anyone of my belief in OSAS, but it will at least give everyone an idea of why I believe in OSAS. There will be the added bonus of giving those who disagree with me more fodder to respond to.

I am interested if anyone, especially Promethius95945 could point me to Scripture that clearly supports post#46 : “No person is a child of wrath and ALL people are children of God.” I missed that idea in my reading the Bible.

Thanks for being a voice of moderation and charity, even though you strongly disagree with my position.

In Christ, brkn1

Thank you for the kind words.
From your posts I sense an intelligent person who is interested in the Truth, is willing to discuss things and even likes a bit of spirited debate.
Whether we “convert” each other here is less important than the “food for thought” that we supply to each other.

Peace
James

 

[holy_wood]

I hope to be able to respond more tonight regarding what I see the problem is about OSAS to Catholics and many Protestants among others.
I don’t expect to convince anyone of my belief in OSAS, but it will at least give everyone an idea of why I believe in OSAS. There will be the added bonus of giving those who disagree with me more fodder to respond to.

I am interested if anyone, especially Promethius95945 could point me to Scripture that clearly supports post#46 : “No person is a child of wrath and ALL people are children of God.” I missed that idea in my reading the Bible.

Thanks for being a voice of moderation and charity, even though you strongly disagree with my position.

In Christ, brkn1

Mind responding to post #45 at all?

Or post the verses you think support OSAS.

 

[brkn1]

Mind responding to post #45 at all?

Or post the verses you think support OSAS.

I will respond to the most "devastating " verse as you put it:

You say (2 Cor 11:2-3) is devastating to OSAS, but I fail to see how you can fully come to that conclusion. Paul is talking about the minds of the church members, not their already saved souls.
The mind is only a part of the soul; it is not the soul itself.
An Alzhimers patient would lack a soul, if only an uncorrupted mind was necessary for the existence of the actual soul.
A saved soul can still have a mind that is not completely correct in its understanding of the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ. The thief on the cross likely did not depend on his mind understanding Christ completely, in order to become saved. God did that work of eternal salvation as He does for all of us.
Paul is jealous that some false teacher would come into the church and corrupt the correct simple Gospel of Christ.
Jesus already warned about this and Jesus said that His sheep would know His voice (truth) and immediately (or eventually) flee the false shepherds. An eternally saved person will be guided by the indwelling Holy Spirit to reject those corrupting false apostles, who present more than the simple Gospel of believing in Jesus alone for salvation.

As far as (Phil 2:12), why don’t you include the next verse13 to understand what Paul is talking about?
“For it is God which worketh IN you to will and do of His good pleasure”, so that you can later work OUT that work God put INTO you first. Of course you must work OUT the work that God first worked IN you carefully (with fear and trembling).
Verse 12 says we work OUT, it does not say we work IN,which is God’s work, but our work is OUT. I 'm trying to be clear about Who does the actual work of salvation. It is God’s work, not ours. We just follow through with the fruits of the Spirit afterwards.

 

[holy_wood]

I will respond to the most "devastating " verse as you put it:

You say (2 Cor 11:2-3) is devastating to OSAS, but I fail to see how you can fully come to that conclusion. Paul is talking about the minds of the church members, not their already saved souls.
The mind is only a part of the soul; it is not the soul itself.
**
Does one accept Christ into there heart with ones mind?

How about reject him?**

The thief on the cross likely did not depend on his mind understanding Christ completely, in order to become saved.
**
He understood that he was the messiah. Complete knowledge is not necessary this is true.**

As far as (Phil 2:12), why don’t you include the next verse13 to understand what Paul is talking about?
“For it is God which worketh IN you to will and do of His good pleasure”, so that you can later work OUT that work God put INTO you first. Of course you must work OUT the work that God first worked IN you carefully (with fear and trembling).
Verse 12 says we work OUT, it does not say we work IN,which is God’s work, but our work is OUT. I 'm trying to be clear about Who does the actual work of salvation. It is God’s work, not ours. We just follow through with the fruits of the Spirit afterwards.
**
It sounds like your rejecting free will here. God works through us and instills in us the grace necessary to do his will but we at any moment can refuse to cooperate with that grace.**

The other verses I posted truly have no problem to your theology?

John 15

I am the true vine; and my Father is the husbandman.

Can you be a branch if your not a Christian?

What is your interpretation of the parable.

 

[brkn1]

Can you be a branch if your not a Christian?

What is your interpretation of the parable.

I noticed that you stopped short of the next few verses in the parable of the vine and branches in (John 15).

You emphasized “If you keep my commandments…”. (v.10)
Here is the commandment: (John 15:12)…“This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.”

Jesus often spoke of this commandment of loving others, especially the brethren in Christ.

How does (John 15:5) fit into your free will understanding of doing ANY work towards your salvation?
I would especially be interested in your understanding of “…the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do NOTHING.” How do you begin to use your free will to choose to follow God, when Jesus says that you can do NOTHING of the sort without already being in Him?
In other words; without already having been saved by God’s Will alone, not by your “free will”.

 

[brkn1]

I noticed that you stopped short of the next few verses in the parable of the vine and branches in (John 15).

You emphasized “If you keep my commandments…”. (v.10)
Here is the commandment: (John 15:12)…“This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.”

Jesus often spoke of this commandment of loving others, especially the brethren in Christ.

How does (John 15:5) fit into your free will understanding of doing ANY work towards your salvation?
I would especially be interested in your understanding of “…the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do NOTHING.” How do you begin to use your free will to choose to follow God, when Jesus says that you can do NOTHING of the sort without already being in Him?
In other words; without already having been saved by God’s Will alone, not by your “free will”.

Before anyone gets all excited assuming that I"m denying the existence of free will in humans, I would like to make it clear that I do not deny that humans are endowed with a free will by God. The Bible does not deny free will in humans either.

What I do see the Bible saying, is that our free will is not capable in any way of chosing God, without God having first chosen us.
God having first chosen the elect eliminates any claim on the part of that elect that they chose God or even caused God to chose them. God’s Will would not be sovereign if we could affect His Will in any way.
I do not pretend to understand it or the “mechanics” of how salvation is only the “work of God”, but the Bible says that salvation is strickly God’s work, not ours.

(John 15:16) “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, He may give it to you.”

I see the bringing forth fruit and later asking the Father in Jesus’ Name as involving our free will, but our free will does not contribute to God’s Sovereign Work of choosing to save us.
God does it this way, so that His gift of Grace is completely His Gift. We do not have to fully understand it (and I don’t), but is that is how the Bible presents it.

God is not “our Chosen God”, until we are first completely His chosen (the elect of God).

 

[JRKH]

(Snip)

(John 15:16) “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, He may give it to you.”

I see the bringing forth fruit and later asking the Father in Jesus’ Name as involving our free will, but our free will does not contribute to God’s Sovereign Work of choosing to save us.
God does it this way, so that His gift of Grace is completely His Gift. We do not have to fully understand it (and I don’t), but is that is how the Bible presents it.

God is not “our Chosen God”, until we are first completely His chosen (the elect of God).

First of all, your arguement here strikes me as very close to Pre-destination. Am I mistaken?

Secondly I think we have issues with John 15. Particularly as it might relate to OSAS. It is your understanding that John 15:16 relates to God Chosing us and not us choosing God. But that is taking it completely out of context. Jesus is teaching and instructing His Apostles. He is refering to choosing the the 12 to be His Apostles specifically, this passage does not refer to God’s choosing “the elect”.

Third: Lets look at John 15:9-10

Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. IF you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

So IF they keep the commandments they abide in Jesus Love.
And IF they stop keeping the commandments they are no longer abiding In Jesus Love.
If I do not abide in Jesus Love can I be saved???

Peace
James