There's no OSAS

[JRKH]

This is an addition to the above post.

Let’s look at John 15: 7-8

IF you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

Here again, Jesus is Placing an IF on those people whom He Himself Chose and also reminding them they they must Prove themselves by bearing fruit.

No Fruit = No Glory to God = No Salvation.

Taking this one logical step farther:
No effort on my part = No Fruit = No Glory to God = No Salvation.

Then one step further we have:
No Grace from God = No effort on my part = No Fruit = No Glory to God = No Salvation.

And one last step equals
I turn away from God = No Grace from God = No effort on my part = No Fruit = No Glory to God = No Salvation.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

After following this thread and the arguments on both sides I have come to the conclusion that OSAS is nothing more than a “Catchphrase” which deflects us from the actual underlying Truths.

I do not mean this in a derogatory fashion to either side.

OSAS proponents can point to many Bible verses that seem to clearly support it, and when arguments are posed about a person who falls away, the standard response then is that “That person wasn’t ever really saved.” Which, of course, means that we, as mere humans, can never tell if a person (even ourselves) is “really” saved or not. The person who is a pillar of an OSAS church and absolutely certain of their own salvation, could next year turn out to “never have been saved” because, for some reason, they turn away from God.

Other Bible verses are put forward that just as clearly oppose OSAS and emphasize the need for works as well as faith. The OSAS person then simply says that a truly saved Christian will do these things naturally out of love of God, and that the “unsaved” can just as easily do good works which will avail them nothing if they do not accept Jesus.

What we are looking at is all externals. Why? Because we cannot know what is in the heart of any individual. How can we know what loving works some shy person may be doing in secret while they appear aloof or indifferent? How can we know what evil might be behind the public acts of an apparently generous person?

Only God can know, and does know, our ultimate fate. Only God can know if we can be truly saved. Only God can know what is truly in our hearts at any given time.

Brkn1 believes that he is saved by Jesus sacrifice and by the Grace he has been given by God. Who am I to argue this point? He also believes that he cannot lose his salvation because he is truly saved and a truly saved person wouldn’t do anything so horrible as to be unforgivable. In other words, he would never “blaspheme against the Holy Spirit”. In this case he may well be right, and be truly saved. For he is Doing the works spoken of in the NT. Not because “works save” but because his salvation places in him the “need” to do these things in imitation of our Lord.

While Brkn1 can, and certainly does, believe wholeheartedly in his salvation, what he cannot see is the sufferings and temptations that may be coming in the future. Nor can he know with absolute clarity how he will respond to these challenges. None of us can. So the upshot is that salvation is ultimately between the individual and God.

God can know all things in time, but the individual cannot. The individual must deal with linear time and the dim outlines of the future. So from God’s timeless perspective we are chosen from before time and are numbered among the elect. However from our perspective, we are always working out our salvation. Loving God and doing the work He sets before us. If I wish to be counted among “the elect’ then I must Accept God’s Grace in my Life and do all I am able to prove worthy of that grace.

Only God knows what my ultimate fate will be. I do not, and frankly I don’t want to know. If I know I am saved, no matter what, I would be afraid of what my loosed human nature might do given I am already forgiven. Likewise if I know I am damned, I would be afraid of what my loosed human nature might do since I cannot loose salvation that I cannot attain.

The final basic issue for all of us is that we cannot know our ultimate fate. No matter how we try to understand God through the Bible or the Church or through philosophy or anything else. We can only do our best to Love Our God and Serve Him. Our success or failure is squarely in His divine Mercy.

Peace
James

 

[heisenburg]

Going on the “they were never really saved to begin with” logic

How come someone was able to test them selves against scripture and show themselves as saved, yet later, they say they are not?

In Christ

 

[brkn1]

It’s good to see at least a little admission that OSAS has some Scriptural support.
There is quite an arsenal of Bible verses that could be pulled up, but I figured you already heard most of it before.
The main verses used to prove OSAS generally would be:
(John 3:15-21)
(John 10:27-30)
(John 11: 25-26)
There is no honest way to argue around these verses as I see it, but I would be interested in reading any attempts to do so.

I agree that only God, not us, can be sure about other people’s salvation.

I feel differently about wanting to know or be sure of my salvation now. I want to know for sure and I’m not talking about being sure using intellect or other human means to determine my assurance.
The reason Jesus said He would send a Comforter (the Holy Spirit) is just for this very reason. The Holy Spirit is to indwell and seal us forever in Christ. The Holy Spirit makes God’s Word and the Living Word alive and real to me.
God can make Jesus more real than one’s own sense of life by the Holy Spirit’s presence and guidance. He has done it for me, but you don’t have to take my word for it. I don’t expect you to believe it either, since as you said, that is between God and myself.

Just in case you want to accuse what I’ve said as being presumptuous, I would like to point you to David’s (Psalm 19). Read the whole psalm, but look especially at David’s prayer to keep him from being presumptuous (verse 13).
With that in mind, go to (Psalm 23). Look at how sure David is of his salvation as one of the Lord’s sheep.
Now read and try to understand exactly what assurance David had, when he said while still alive, “…: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.”
Even the Old Testament saints believed in OSAS, as I understand that statement.

May Our Gracious Lord bless and guide you into all Truth.

 

[Delgadoajj]

*Brkn1 Said:

Birth does occur in a moment. You are not born until completely out of your mother. That would be the moment. And you can’t go back and get unborn either!*

You really think so? I challenge you to ask any woman that has given natural birth to a child. :bigyikes: You better believe it that natural birth does not occur in a “moment”. Birth takes a loooooong time!!! My wife had two kids. The first one took 12 hours to come out!!! The second about 8 hours. She knows it is a process (me too - I was there), and not a moment or quick event like osas proposes. So your analogy is not at all convincing, nor correct.

Osas also doesn’t make sense and I would categorize it as an EVIL belief system (don’t worry about sin - no eternal consequences - yea right). So, you tell me that no matter what I do, I cannot loose Salvation? Man, that is like playing with fire!!! That is really like Russian Roullette. A belief system that doesn’t even require cooperation (not works) with God’s plan for salvation… Just think, is that something a company would use as a policy: don’t worry, as an employee of the company (born again) you have nothing to worry, just perform the way you want, you’ll still receive a pay check. The company would’t last long (God’s plan would’t work). Makes no sense… none. It goes against reason itself, and, of course, God is pure REASON.

I’m sure you are a rational person. Use that reason wisely. This belief system is not rational.

Jorge.

 

[brkn1]

Brkn1 Said:

Birth does occur in a moment. You are not born until completely out of your mother. That would be the moment. And you can’t go back and get unborn either!

You really think so? I challenge you to ask any woman that has given natural birth to a child. :bigyikes: You better believe it that natural birth does not occur in a “moment”. Birth takes a loooooong time!!! My wife had two kids. The first one took 12 hours to come out!!! The second about 8 hours. She knows it is a process (me too - I was there), and not a moment or quick event like osas proposes. So your analogy is not at all convincing, nor correct.

Osas also doesn’t make sense and I would categorize it as an EVIL belief system (don’t worry about sin - no eternal consequences - yea right). So, you tell me that no matter what I do, I cannot loose Salvation? Man, that is like playing with fire!!! That is really like Russian Roullette. A belief system that doesn’t even require cooperation (not works) with God’s plan for salvation… Just think, is that something a company would use as a policy: don’t worry, as an employee of the company (born again) you have nothing to worry, just perform the way you want, you’ll still receive a pay check. The company would’t last long (God’s plan would’t work). Makes no sense… none. It goes against reason itself, and, of course, God is pure REASON.

I’m sure you are a rational person. Use that reason wisely. This belief system is not rational.

Jorge.

There is a motivation for a born again person to perform even more than an “employee” that is only seeking a “paycheck” (salvation).
With the security of already being guaranteed a paycheck according to a signed and sealed contract, there is the loyalty and gratitude that follows, which should motivate a good employee to do as much as possible for the firm and especially for the wonderful and gracious Boss. All energy can be put straight into promoting the Boss and firm, without having to worry about getting fired for possible mistakes. There is the added motivation of promised bonuses for running the race well also.

Russian roullette seems to be a better description of living life never fully sure that the ending might be eternal damnation in perpetual torment if you possibly did not cross all the "t"s or dot all the "i"s properly before the moment of death; which may be a long drawn out process, but there is still going to be a final moment when death, as in birth, is over.

I suppose a rational person might invent purgatory to cover that contingiency. I think they call that a “parachute” in the business world.
Good luck with the game of roullette, but you might want to look into God’s Word to see if maybe you have been reading the wrong instruction manual made by another company.

 

[Ronald_E]

There is a motivation for a born again person to perform even more than an “employee” that is only seeking a “paycheck” (salvation).
With the security of already being guaranteed a paycheck according to a signed and sealed contract, there is the loyalty and gratitude that follows, which should motivate a good employee to do as much as possible for the firm and especially for the wonderful and gracious Boss. All energy can be put straight into promoting the Boss and firm, without having to worry about getting fired for possible mistakes. There is the added motivation of promised bonuses for running the race well also.

Russian roullette seems to be a better description of living life never fully sure that the ending might be eternal damnation in perpetual torment if you possibly did not cross all the "t"s or dot all the "i"s properly before the moment of death; which may be a long drawn out process, but there is still going to be a final moment when death, as in birth, is over.

I suppose a rational person might invent purgatory to cover that contingiency. I think they call that a “parachute” in the business world.
Good luck with the game of roullette, but you might want to look into God’s Word to see if maybe you have been reading the wrong instruction manual made by another company.

I wish I knew how to use quotes better, but I don’t take the time to learn. I never really think about OSAS, since it seems to be a distraction from Christ’s real message. I do not think about rewards earned in Heaven because it is a distraction. I see plenty of people guarranteed a paycheck and that is enough for them. In our culture we want certainty and cannot tolerate ambiguity.
If I believe in Jesus I have to go to the Cross. Everything He did and said related to the Cross. OSAS seems to be something that deflects from His message to us. He seems to want us to give up any right we have to ourselves, pick up our cross and follow Him into the unknown. OSAS seems to be a human construct to alleviate anxiety related to Jesus wanting us to give up everything for Him. OSAS seems to prevent clarity and maturation of the soul that can only be attained through the suffering that comes through Christ on the Cross.
I have to go now. More later.
God Bless.

 

[JRKH]

There is a motivation for a born again person to perform even more than an “employee” that is only seeking a “paycheck” (salvation).
With the security of already being guaranteed a paycheck according to a signed and sealed contract, there is the loyalty and gratitude that follows, which should motivate a good employee to do as much as possible for the firm and especially for the wonderful and gracious Boss. All energy can be put straight into promoting the Boss and firm, without having to worry about getting fired for possible mistakes. There is the added motivation of promised bonuses for running the race well also.
(snip)

Brkn1
I hope to address your other post later today but wanted to address your analogy here.

Even If I accept the argument that I cannot be fired.
What is to stop me from quitting?
What is to stop me from running down this gratitious boss and and wonderful oportunity for some percieved grievance?
If I do quit, and proceed to badmouth the comapny and owner, do the checks continue?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Brkn1
Before getting into the discussion below I want to reaffirm that I am not attacking you or your personal realtionship with God. My concern is that the concept of OSAS is very dangerous to minds which are not well formed. It is one thing for people versed in faith and the Bible to discuss the hows and whys of salvation, but if one is not trained or gifted enough to understand the nuances of how salvation works, they could be too easily led astray.

It’s good to see at least a little admission that OSAS has some Scriptural support.
There is quite an arsenal of Bible verses that could be pulled up, but I figured you already heard most of it before.

I am sorry to that I cannot return the compliment in that there is also “quite and arsenal” of Bible verses that just as cearly point away from OSAS. Many of which you have not refuted. Which leads to the next issue of who determines the interpretation when two, spirit filled Christians disagree?

The main verses used to prove OSAS generally would be:
(John 3:15-21)
(John 10:27-30)
(John 11: 25-26)
There is no honest way to argue around these verses as I see it, but I would be interested in reading any attempts to do so.

I’m sure what you mean is that “you believe” there is no way to honestly argue around these verses.

I also assume that since you have not addressed these, that there is no way to argue around these verses as well.
John 15: 7-8
IF you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
John 15:9-10
Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. IF you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
James 1:26
"If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, his religion is vain."

I agree that only God, not us, can be sure about other people’s salvation.

And in fact we, with our limited understanding, can only be sure of ourselves for the next instant. For we cannot know what may happen to us in the future, and while we may believe with all our heart and trust as a child trusts that we will always choose God, we cannot know with absolute knowledge that we will remain true.
If we do fail to remain true then we become like the others of whom it is said, “They were never truly saved to begin with”. So the argument regarding OSAS comes full circle.
So the question becomes, which teaching is of more benefit to God, His Kingdom and His Glory? Is it the teaching that says, come forward accept Christ to be saved and you can never lose your salvation no matter what might happen or sin you might commit? Or is it the teaching that says come forward and accept Christ to be saved, but then be on guard lest the evil one cause you to turn away from your salvation?

I feel differently about wanting to know or be sure of my salvation now. I want to know for sure and I’m not talking about being sure using intellect or other human means to determine my assurance.

I’m glad that you are sure of your salvation. I am not glad for they way in which you have that salvation. By that I mean that you do not want to use “intellect or other human means” (such as reason and logic I presume). This indicates that your assurance of salvation is based on an emotional response to Christ and your conversion. While I don’t mean to minimize or belittle this I have seen too many “seeds fall on rocky ground”, who sprout only to die off and it is mostly due to being unable to maintain that “emotional high”. OSAS Churches often rely on this emotional state and frequent alter calls to rededicate your life etc. It is all very emotive and emotions can be very dangerous when it comes to matters of spirit.

(Continued)

 

[JRKH]

(Continued)

The reason Jesus said He would send a Comforter (the Holy Spirit) is just for this very reason. The Holy Spirit is to indwell and seal us forever in Christ. The Holy Spirit makes God’s Word and the Living Word alive and real to me.

Very good and quite right. Jesus did Promise that his Father would send us the Paraclete, the Comforter. He also promised us a Church against which the gates of hell would not prevail. What he did not promise us was a book, a library. The first men to ever receive the Holy Spirit then began to build the Church, on oral teachings and traditions - and they never promised us a book either. It wasn’t until that first generation began to die that others recorded the Gospels, and later still (about 3.5 centuries) that Christ’s Church gathered and approved the canon of the Bible in the basic form we have today.
The Church, which Christ established on the apostles, has never taught OSAS. It has always held that, If you accept Jesus AND keep his commandments you will be saved. But now some small groups who choose to ignore the ancient, teachings of Christ’s established church, wish to play “cut and paste” with the Book which belongs to Christ’s established Church, and convince others that this book is not Catholic.

God can make Jesus more real than one’s own sense of life by the Holy Spirit’s presence and guidance. He has done it for me, but you don’t have to take my word for it. I don’t expect you to believe it either, since as you said, that is between God and myself.

Believe me Brkn1 I do not doubt for a minute your personal devotion to God and to Jesus our Lord. I just feel you are missing so much more that is available through His Church.
I would hope that in the love you have for God’s word you would eventually decide to look at the writings and teaching of the early Church Fathers. I believe that It would do nothing more than deepen your faith and help you grow in your Love for God.

Just in case you want to accuse what I’ve said as being presumptuous, I would like to point you to David’s (Psalm 19). Read the whole psalm, but look especially at David’s prayer to keep him from being presumptuous (verse 13).
With that in mind, go to (Psalm 23). Look at how sure David is of his salvation as one of the Lord’s sheep.
Now read and try to understand exactly what assurance David had, when he said while still alive, “…: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.”
Even the Old Testament saints believed in OSAS, as I understand that statement.

Presumptuos, No – Stubborn, Yes!! But that is OK. You’re no more stubborn than this bunch here.
We all pray and even sing with the same confidence David expresses here. Certainly I believe I am saved. Certainly I believe I will be in Heaven with our Lord. If I persevere to the end.

May Our Gracious Lord bless and guide you into all Truth.

And you my friend.

Peace
James

 

[Delgadoajj]

There is a motivation for a born again person to perform even more than an “employee” that is only seeking a “paycheck” (salvation).
With the security of already being guaranteed a paycheck according to a signed and sealed contract, there is the loyalty and gratitude that follows, which should motivate a good employee to do as much as possible for the firm and especially for the wonderful and gracious Boss. All energy can be put straight into promoting the Boss and firm, without having to worry about getting fired for possible mistakes. There is the added motivation of promised bonuses for running the race well also.

Russian roullette seems to be a better description of living life never fully sure that the ending might be eternal damnation in perpetual torment if you possibly did not cross all the "t"s or dot all the "i"s properly before the moment of death; which may be a long drawn out process, but there is still going to be a final moment when death, as in birth, is over.

I suppose a rational person might invent purgatory to cover that contingiency. I think they call that a “parachute” in the business world.
Good luck with the game of roullette, but you might want to look into God’s Word to see if maybe you have been reading the wrong instruction manual made by another company.

Sorry buddy, osas was an invention of the protestant reformation, never before heard of. Purgatory is very biblical. Where do you think Jesus went after he died??? To Purgatory. This is the only place because after he resurrected he told his disciples he had not been to his father in heaven yet.

The key word in your response is “should” as in “should motivate a good employee”. Man, talk about uncertainty! You sure used the correct word here. A good employee “should” do his/her best. However, even the best ones sometimes fail. Some of them even end up getting canned for bad behaviour or poor results. Hey, it’s their choice. If a company here on earth gives us a choice, how can God not!!! osas denies this choice to christians. There are consequences for cooperating or not with God’s plan of salvation.

In one of the parables Jesus tells his disciples, he says that a person with debt will be put in jail until he finishes paying the last penny. This is another proof of Purgatory. This has been a teaching from Christ himself and has existed forever after that. Whatever stains your soul or mine have will need to be cleansed in Purgatory. Our souls need to be stain-free before we can see God himself. osas is like putting a clean dress over a body that hasn’t been washed of the sins that keep accumulating over a lifetime as no discipline is required to keep the body clean. Even though the dress is clean, the body is filthy. It is filthy if the person wishes it to be that way. That is osas. Jesus provides through his Catholic church the means to keep our “bodies” (souls) clean. We can use these or not. It is our choice. He gives us the free will to choose. osas nullifies our free will, which is also irrational.

Osas is like communism in many ways. Communism leads to mediocrity since you are told you will have everything you need to live, so why try your hardest. Catholic teaching is more like capitalism, which leads to achievement, not by being afraid all the time like so many protestants incorrectly state of catholics, but by cooperating to make a better society. Remember: communism doesn’t work, never has, and never will, simply because it is an IRRATIONAL system. By the same token, osas will never work as Jesus never intended his plan of salvation to be based on an irrational system such as this. His plan of salvation is based on giving his grace to us through the sacraments of his church and us cooperating with him to build the his kingdom here on earth. This is not human “works”. Think about it, man. What I’m telling you makes a lot more sence than osas.

Jorge.

 

[brkn1]

Sorry buddy, osas was an invention of the protestant reformation, never before heard of. Purgatory is very biblical. Where do you think Jesus went after he died??? To Purgatory. This is the only place because after he resurrected he told his disciples he had not been to his father in heaven yet.

The key word in your response is “should” as in “should motivate a good employee”. Man, talk about uncertainty! You sure used the correct word here. A good employee “should” do his/her best. However, even the best ones sometimes fail. Some of them even end up getting canned for bad behaviour or poor results. Hey, it’s their choice. If a company here on earth gives us a choice, how can God not!!! osas denies this choice to christians. There are consequences for cooperating or not with God’s plan of salvation.

In one of the parables Jesus tells his disciples, he says that a person with debt will be put in jail until he finishes paying the last penny. This is another proof of Purgatory. This has been a teaching from Christ himself and has existed forever after that. Whatever stains your soul or mine have will need to be cleansed in Purgatory. Our souls need to be stain-free before we can see God himself. osas is like putting a clean dress over a body that hasn’t been washed of the sins that keep accumulating over a lifetime as no discipline is required to keep the body clean. Even though the dress is clean, the body is filthy. It is filthy if the person wishes it to be that way. That is osas. Jesus provides through his Catholic church the means to keep our “bodies” (souls) clean. We can use these or not. It is our choice. He gives us the free will to choose. osas nullifies our free will, which is also irrational.

Osas is like communism in many ways. Communism leads to mediocrity since you are told you will have everything you need to live, so why try your hardest. Catholic teaching is more like capitalism, which leads to achievement, not by being afraid all the time like so many protestants incorrectly state of catholics, but by cooperating to make a better society. Remember: communism doesn’t work, never has, and never will, simply because it is an IRRATIONAL system. By the same token, osas will never work as Jesus never intended his plan of salvation to be based on an irrational system such as this. His plan of salvation is based on giving his grace to us through the sacraments of his church and us cooperating with him to build the his kingdom here on earth. This is not human “works”. Think about it, man. What I’m telling you makes a lot more sence than osas.

Jorge.

Relax Jorge,
You are reading too much into my response using the employee analogy, which you were the inventor of, not me.

I was just rattling your cage to make a point about some of what you presented as a good argument, since I would never really present salvation as an employee and boss situation, seeing that I do not understand the salvation process requiring more than the faith in Jesus alone without our works as the Bible confirms.
My irrational attempt failed as you demonstrate with your response.
If it makes you feel better, I will now say that you win by default, since you are again presenting too much for a simple-minded irrational person, such as myself, to adequately respond to.

I’m sorry if this is not the response you hoped for, but you did sort of win I think.

 

[brkn1]

Brkn1

I am sorry to that I cannot return the compliment in that there is also “quite and arsenal” of Bible verses that just as cearly point away from OSAS. Many of which you have not refuted. Which leads to the next issue of who determines the interpretation when two, spirit filled Christians disagree?

I’m sure what you mean is that “you believe” there is no way to honestly argue around these verses.

The verses I asked you or any one else to explain were the following:
(John 3:15-21)
(John 10: 27-30)
(John 11: 25-26)

You can or will not do it I see from you answer.
Maybe the RCC catechism has the proper explanation that you could use.
I have responded to some of the verses presented by others in this thread. That included a “devastating verse to OSAS” as it was presented.
I promise to try to respond to at least a few more of your verses that you say prove your position, but that will be after someone makes an honest attempt to explain away one of the above three sets of verses.
You will notice that (John 3:15-21) does includes deeds, which you hold to. The only problem is that those deeds we do are “wrought in God”, which needs to be clarified if you think that means of ourselves, or that those deeds are what helps to save us.

 

[brkn1]

Brkn1
I also assume that since you have not addressed these, that there is no way to argue around these verses as well.
John 15: 7-8
IF you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
John 15:9-10
Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. IF you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

The key word in all of these verses is the word “abide”.
To undestand what is meant by this word, we go to the beginning of John 15.
We see in verses 1&2 that the Father is the Husbandman of the garden where Jesus is the True Vine. We are the branches that somehow got onto that Vine. The question now is, "How did we get on that Vine? The answer must be: “We were saved by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ.”
You have to agree that no one starts out as a branch on that Vine, since all are sinners that need to first be saved through the grace of God. Then they get put onto that Vine, but not before.

If a person is a branch on that Vine, they are now “abiding”.

Notice that v.2 has the Father taking away every branch IN CHRIST that is not bearing fruit. Remember that being IN CHRIST does not speak about any of the unsaved people of the world, who are NOT branches that EVER abide in the VINE.
DO NOT FORGET THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT BRANCHES (((((( IN CHRIST )))))) HERE!!!
These branches are NOT the same thing as the “man …AS a branch” later described in verse 6. Those men never did abide in the Vine, and they are cast “as a branch” “into the fire” by men in that description. That man is not described as a branch already in Christ, which is taken away by the Father.
Those branches in Christ, that do not bear fruit, will not receive any rewards in Heaven as Paul describes several times, but they still are saved or they would not be described as still “in Christ” in verse 2.
According to your beliefs, such a branch could not be described as “in Christ”, because they would have already lost their “in Christ” status by not bearing fruit.

Verses 7&8 are talking about fruitful branches that are privileged to do the Father’s Will, as they ask for God’s help to bear more fruit for Him as Jesus’ disciples. All the fruit is “wrought in God” here.

Verse 9&10 speak of even further abiding in Jesus’ love as one keeps His commandments, which one can not do of oneself, but only as one already saved in Christ: " without Me (Christ) ye can do nothing." v.5

More fruit in Christ and deeper abiding in His Love, along with the resulting love of one another makes our joy full here and later in Heaven.
The depth of our friendship with the Lord depends on how well a saved person obeys Him, but any lack in this does not cause an already saved person to get unsaved, since our salvation never originated from any of our works. Our lack might cause us to be taken away by God though, and there will be considerable loss of joy for us as a result. Salvation is the work of God. Look into Romans for confirmation of that.

Sorry for yelling.

In Christ

 

[Delgadoajj]

Relax Jorge,
You are reading too much into my response using the employee analogy, which you were the inventor of, not me.

I was just rattling your cage to make a point about some of what you presented as a good argument, since I would never really present salvation as an employee and boss situation, seeing that I do not understand the salvation process requiring more than the faith in Jesus alone without our works as the Bible confirms.
My irrational attempt failed as you demonstrate with your response.
If it makes you feel better, I will now say that you win by default, since you are again presenting too much for a simple-minded irrational person, such as myself, to adequately respond to.

I’m sorry if this is not the response you hoped for, but you did sort of win I think.

Thank you, you are very kind.

Jorge.

 

[Ronald_E]

I am going to make a comment here about the discussion in reference to OSAS and the John 15 verses. John 15 cannot be isolated from chapters 13 through 17 since this takes place during The Last Supper. These are the remaining 11 disciples after Jesus allowed satan to enter Judas and gave him permission to do what he must do.
Since this is the Last Supper it then must be related to the other Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke for a more complete picture of what Jesus it telling us.
In addition, The Last Supper then would connect to John 6 when Our Lord describes Himself as being the “…bread of life…” John 6:66 describes many of His disciples who had left Him because they could not accept or perhaps comprehend His Words.
It appears that Jesus is preparing the remaining 11 for the reality of their suffering that they must endure to fulfill their relationship with Him. He chose them to build the foundation of the Church and He seems to be telling them that they are the branches that remain to produce fruit. John 17:26 states “I made known to them your name and I will make it known, that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them.”
OSAS does not seem to apply here. It appears that Jesus is telling us in John 17 that we must be united in love as He and the Father are united in love; each in one another. He seems to be telling us that the only way to know that we belong to the vine is to observe whether or not we are connected to the vine that the apostles are connected to. It is by Grace that we are put into a Christ and the fruit that we produce or do not produce is determines if we are separated or not.
It seems that to produce good fruit we must do the right things. Jesus explains in His Last Supper what we must do to remain in Him and He in us.
I must go now. God Bless.

 

[JRKH]

Brkn1,
Let me start by saying that I think you are a fine apologist. Your posts are always a pleasure to read, even if I don’t agree with your conclusions. As to the “Yelling” – well – I guess things do get a trifle frustrating at times. Believe me – I’ve been there too.

I guess I’ll first try to address the “indesputable” verses that you posted:
(John 3:15-21) (John 10: 27-30) (John 11: 25-26)
I have no problem with these verses, stating that All Salvation comes from God, or that man can do nothing good outside of God. Certainly no catholc is going to dispute that we rely exclusively on God for our salvation. I even have no problem with the concept that God has already chosen us, since God exists outside of time and all past, present, and future are as one to Him.
So the central question in the OSAS debate in not in whether man is able to save himself since clearly he is not. That is as fruitless as the man lost in the middle of the ocean trying to swim to shore. Rather it is a question of how and what OSAS means within the human timeline and limited human understanding.
Thus the verses above can stand as they are and demonstrate that those whom God saves stay saved. What they do not demonstrate is that everyone who walks up the aisle during an “Altar Call” is really and truly saved.

The next issue then becomes, what does it mean to be saved? God has clearly answered this question as well. First we must believe in God and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Second we must keep His commandments. We must abide in Him. The NT is just as clear that “faith without works is dead” as it is that works outside of God are worthless. Both of these things, acceptance of Christ and keeping His commandments, you must agree, require an action on our part. These actions are efforts on our part to first open ourselves to God’s saving grace and second to bear fruit to Glorify God’s Kingdom.

Another analogy, and it is Jesus own, that points toward the need for our own efforts in cooperating with God’s Salvation is actaully the sheep and shepard. It is very true that Jesus is our Good Sheperd, and that His own know and follow his voice. But you’ll notice that, in order to follow His Voice we must do the walking. He did not say that his sheep would ride quietly, protected in the cart of salvation. If we must listen and follow His voice then we can also become lost or wander off.
He also promised us that he would lead us to green pastures, but once we get there it is we who must do the feeding. We must do His will. That is WE must Follow, We must Obey, We must be willing to bear fruit for God’s Glory.

In a general way I would like to call your attention to Jesus own testemony in a number of places where He people were cured. His response was, “Your faith has cured you”. Not ‘your cured because God chose you before time’, or anything else, just, “Your Faith has cured you”. Again this points to the need for our own effort; our own work in concert with God’s saving Grace.

I must take a break now as my wife needs me, and I have some difficulty keeping all my thoughts straight. I will look at and address your other posts later.

Peace in Christ my Friend
James

 

[JRKH]

The key word in all of these verses is the word “abide”.
To undestand what is meant by this word, we go to the beginning of John 15.
We see in verses 1&2 that the Father is the Husbandman of the garden where Jesus is the True Vine. We are the branches that somehow got onto that Vine. The question now is, "How did we get on that Vine? The answer must be: “We were saved by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ.”
You have to agree that no one starts out as a branch on that Vine, since all are sinners that need to first be saved through the grace of God. Then they get put onto that Vine, but not before.

If a person is a branch on that Vine, they are now “abiding”.

So far so good.

Notice that v.2 has the Father taking away every branch IN CHRIST that is not bearing fruit. Remember that being IN CHRIST does not speak about any of the unsaved people of the world, who are NOT branches that EVER abide in the VINE.

What does “take away” mean here? What would it mean to any vinter to say “take away the branches that do not bear fruit." It means to cut off. To remove and burn. To destroy as trash.

DO NOT FORGET THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT BRANCHES (((((( IN CHRIST )))))) HERE!!!

I’m not forgetting.

These branches are NOT the same thing as the “man …AS a branch” later described in verse 6. Those men never did abide in the Vine, and they are cast “as a branch” “into the fire” by men in that description. That man is not described as a branch already in Christ, which is taken away by the Father.

This is just plain wrong and a perfect example of “cut and paste” theology!
You are trying to change meanings within a coherent passage and that just cannot be done.
The Vine and the Branches analogy used by Christ is one His diciples would certainly have understood as meaning that unless you, as a branch, bear fruit you will be cut off by the father as indicated in verse 2. This meaning would have been perfectly clear to the apostles and has been just as perfectly clear to His Church ever since.

Those branches in Christ, that do not bear fruit, will not receive any rewards in Heaven as Paul describes several times, but they still are saved or they would not be described as still “in Christ” in verse 2.

So now you are telling me that a person can be saved, and go to heaven but still not receive any rewards? I’ll have to let someone else try to deal with this bit of theological gymnastics.

According to your beliefs, such a branch could not be described as “in Christ”, because they would have already lost their “in Christ” status by not bearing fruit.

Now your getting it, because as it is written, Faith without works is dead. Further in verse 2 God will cut us off for not bearing fruit.

Verses 7&8 are talking about fruitful branches that are privileged to do the Father’s Will, as they ask for God’s help to bear more fruit for Him as Jesus’ disciples. All the fruit is “wrought in God” here.

I surely don’t see how you can read that into this:
7If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples
In order for this to have the meaning you ascribe you would have to read the word “If” as “Since” which no translation I looked at, including “Youngs Literal Translation”, translates it thus. The term is translated consistantly as “If”.

(continued)

 

[JRKH]

Verse 9&10 speak of even further abiding in Jesus’ love as one keeps His commandments, which one can not do of oneself, but only as one already saved in Christ: “without Me (Christ) ye can do nothing.” v.5

You are correct in what you say that we abide deeper in Jesus’Love as we keep His commandments. But here again I must point out the the wors used is if. If we Keep His commandments we will abide, in his love.
So what can be the only logical conclusion if we do not obey His commandments. That we do not abide in his Love, and if we do not abide in God’s love we can bear no fruit and if we bear no fruit we will be cut off and burned as shown in verse 6.

More fruit in Christ and deeper abiding in His Love, along with the resulting love of one another makes our joy full here and later in Heaven.

Agreed

The depth of our friendship with the Lord depends on how well a saved person obeys Him, but any lack in this does not cause an already saved person to get unsaved, since our salvation never originated from any of our works. Our lack might cause us to be taken away by God though, and there will be considerable loss of joy for us as a result. Salvation is the work of God. Look into Romans for confirmation of that.

Our salvation certainly originates with God. Without God there can be no salvation. In fact without God we wouldn’t exist to be saved so there is an end to that.
However, I have to admit confusion here since, on one hand you say that our failures cannot cause an already saved person to get unsaved, then in the next sentence you say that God can take us away and there will be a “considerable loss of joy”(???).
Yet the Vine and Branch analogy clearly states one is cut off and to be cut off means to be burned and destroyed. Loss of Joy – I’d say so.

Now you see that we, as two God fearing Christians, so strongly disagree on the interpretation of scripture, how do we ultimately resolve this? Can we assume that the HS is giving us both such different interpretations? Can both be right? Where is the authority that can settle this for us?

I have to look to the origin and history of Christianity in Christ. And to the one Church who has a single, continuous historical line back to the pre-canon days. To the Church founded by the people of Christ’s own choosing, who wrote the documents under the guidance of the HS and therefore have the first and best understanding of the origonal and intended meanings and teachings.

Peace
James

 

[brkn1]

However, I have to admit confusion here since, on one hand you say that our failures cannot cause an already saved person to get unsaved, then in the next sentence you say that God can take us away and there will be a “considerable loss of joy”(???).
Yet the Vine and Branch analogy clearly states one is cut off and to be cut off means to be burned and destroyed. Loss of Joy – I’d say so.

Peace
James

When I say that God takes us away, I am referring to verse 2 of (John 15): “Every branch (IN ME) that beareth not fruit HE (the Father) taketh away,…”
What “taketh away” must mean, is that the Father takes that “branch in Christ” away in death to Heaven or the Father sets that “branch in Christ” aside temporaily until death, or until that “branch in Christ” gets sufficiently convicted by the Father’s chastening , that the “branch in Christ” confesses and receives forgiveness so that the “branch in Christ” can again abide in the Vine. The Father is not described as casting the “branch in Christ” here as you assume. The “man” in verse 6 is. That “man” is only described “as a branch”, not a “branch in Christ”, as verse 2 says.

If you insist that the “man” in verse 6 is the same person as the “branch in Christ” of verse 2, then that means that as soon as you or any person sins and is no longer abiding in Christ, they must IMMEDIATELY be cast into Hell, with no chance of confessing sins and being forgiven.

I hope I am being more clear in this post. There is logic to it if you look carefully at it I think.

In Christ