There's no OSAS

[The_GreyPilgrim]

This doctrine (OSAS)stems from the doctrine of “Sola Fide”-Faith Alone-and I contend that both OSAS & SF are unbiblical and scripture proves it.

Now I know that I’m going to get heat for the above statement and a flood of proof texts that says I’m wrong. Namely:

Galatians 3:11
Galatians 3:24
Romans 3:28
Romans 10:9-10
Acts 16:30-31
John 3:16
1 John 5:13
Ephesians 2:8-9

For every one of those texts my answer will be: Amen! I believe!

But I ask any of you where in any of those texts does the word “alone” follow the word “faith”.

And if I may I have a scriptural response for every one of those passages above:

My Response:

Galatians 3:11-------------------->Romans 2:13
Galatians 3:24-------------------->James 2:24
Romans 3:28J-------------------->ames 2:20
Romans 10:9-10-------------------->Matthew 7:21
Acts 16:30-31-------------------->Matthew 19:16-17
John 3:16-------------------->Hebrews 12:14
1 John 5:13-------------------->Philippians 2:12-13
Ephesians 2:8-9-------------------->Ephesians 2:10

1 Corinthians 13:13 "Faith, hope, and love abide these three but the greatest of these is…faith?

No, it says the greatest is love, not faith.

1 Corinthians 13:2 "If I have all faith so as to move mountains

(now that is some really powerful faith and according to Sola Fide it should be enough but is it?)…
…, but have not love, I AM NOTHING."

The Catholic Church teaches a doctrine that we are saved by Grace alone working THROUGH Faith and Works. We are saved by nothing but God’s free gift and our response to this gift is the act of believing and trusting in Him and the act of Loving Him and our neighbors as He has loved us. Nowhere does the Church teach that our works will save us, it is on the indvidual believer to live His life in love, prayer, and service to God and his fellow man. And in the end it is up to God and God alone to determine whether or not that person enters the eternal beatitude. And if the question is asked of that person by God why He should allow that person into heaven the answer will be because of Jesus’ death on the cross for me; not because of my faith, not because of my works, but because of what Jesus did for me and I did what Jesus told me to do.

Now if we are not saved by Faith Alone OSAS begins to fall apart.

OSAS claims that once you are saved that the sin you commit cannot seperate you from God.

Yet look at Romans 7:15
“For I do not do what I want, but I do the very things I hate.”

And 1 Cor 9:[27] but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Now you can say that Paul was one saved individual. Yet in all his letters, which mind you were written to those who were believers-those who according to SF & OSAS were saved-yet he wrote constantly about sin: Romans 12:21 & 15:15; Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 6:18 & 11:17-22 & 15:12; Ephesians 4:25-32 & 5:5; Colossians 3:25

See also:
James 2:1 & 4:1-4; Matthew 5:31-48 & 6:1-7; 1 Peter 1:1-2 & 2:1, 2 Peter 1:1 & 3:17

Other problems with OSAS:
What about enduring to the end?
~ Matthew 10:22
~ Hebrews 10:35-36
~ Hebrews 12:1

Hope? If you have 100% assurance of salvation why do you need hope?
~ Romans 8:24-25
~ Romans 15:13
~ Romans 5:2

It seems obvious that Paul didn’t have absolute assurance:
~ Philippians 3:10-13
~ 1 Corinthians 9:26-27

Other verses that wouldn’t make sense if Protestant view is true:
~ 2 Corinthians 13:5-6
~ 1 Thessalonians 5:23
~ Philippians 2:12
~ Hebrews 4:1,11
~ Colossians 1:21-23

The “Book of Life”
~ Revelation 20:15
~ Psalms 69:28
~ Revelation 3:1-5

If once one is saved that salvation cannot be removed why would king David ask God to do something that he knew couldn’t be done? Why would David ask God to blot out someone’s name from the book of life if he knew it couldn’t be done?

And finally:
~ Hebrews 10:38
~ Ezekiel 33:12-19
~ Ezekiel 18:21-24
~ 1 Timothy 4:1
~ John 2:11 with John 6:16-22, 66 They-his disciples- believed in Him, then they rejected Him.
~ 2 Timothy 3:16- (Just incase one tries to say that the OT no longer applies to the NT)

 

[Ronald_E]

This doctrine (OSAS)stems from the doctrine of “Sola Fide”-Faith Alone-and I contend that both OSAS & SF are unbiblical and scripture proves it.

Now I know that I’m going to get heat for the above statement and a flood of proof texts that says I’m wrong. Namely:

Galatians 3:11
Galatians 3:24
Romans 3:28
Romans 10:9-10
Acts 16:30-31
John 3:16
1 John 5:13
Ephesians 2:8-9

For every one of those texts my answer will be: Amen! I believe!

But I ask any of you where in any of those texts does the word “alone” follow the word “faith”.

And if I may I have a scriptural response for every one of those passages above:

My Response:

Galatians 3:11-------------------->Romans 2:13
Galatians 3:24-------------------->James 2:24
Romans 3:28J-------------------->ames 2:20
Romans 10:9-10-------------------->Matthew 7:21
Acts 16:30-31-------------------->Matthew 19:16-17
John 3:16-------------------->Hebrews 12:14
1 John 5:13-------------------->Philippians 2:12-13
Ephesians 2:8-9-------------------->Ephesians 2:10

1 Corinthians 13:13 "Faith, hope, and love abide these three but the greatest of these is…faith?

No, it says the greatest is love, not faith.

1 Corinthians 13:2 "If I have all faith so as to move mountains

(now that is some really powerful faith and according to Sola Fide it should be enough but is it?)…
…, but have not love, I AM NOTHING."

The Catholic Church teaches a doctrine that we are saved by Grace alone working THROUGH Faith and Works. We are saved by nothing but God’s free gift and our response to this gift is the act of believing and trusting in Him and the act of Loving Him and our neighbors as He has loved us. Nowhere does the Church teach that our works will save us, it is on the indvidual believer to live His life in love, prayer, and service to God and his fellow man. And in the end it is up to God and God alone to determine whether or not that person enters the eternal beatitude. And if the question is asked of that person by God why He should allow that person into heaven the answer will be because of Jesus’ death on the cross for me; not because of my faith, not because of my works, but because of what Jesus did for me and I did what Jesus told me to do.

Now if we are not saved by Faith Alone OSAS begins to fall apart.

OSAS claims that once you are saved that the sin you commit cannot seperate you from God.

Yet look at Romans 7:15
“For I do not do what I want, but I do the very things I hate.”

And 1 Cor 9:[27] but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Now you can say that Paul was one saved individual. Yet in all his letters, which mind you were written to those who were believers-those who according to SF & OSAS were saved-yet he wrote constantly about sin: Romans 12:21 & 15:15; Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 6:18 & 11:17-22 & 15:12; Ephesians 4:25-32 & 5:5; Colossians 3:25

See also:
James 2:1 & 4:1-4; Matthew 5:31-48 & 6:1-7; 1 Peter 1:1-2 & 2:1, 2 Peter 1:1 & 3:17

Other problems with OSAS:
What about enduring to the end?
~ Matthew 10:22
~ Hebrews 10:35-36
~ Hebrews 12:1

Hope? If you have 100% assurance of salvation why do you need hope?
~ Romans 8:24-25
~ Romans 15:13
~ Romans 5:2

It seems obvious that Paul didn’t have absolute assurance:
~ Philippians 3:10-13
~ 1 Corinthians 9:26-27

Other verses that wouldn’t make sense if Protestant view is true:
~ 2 Corinthians 13:5-6
~ 1 Thessalonians 5:23
~ Philippians 2:12
~ Hebrews 4:1,11
~ Colossians 1:21-23

The “Book of Life”
~ Revelation 20:15
~ Psalms 69:28
~ Revelation 3:1-5

If once one is saved that salvation cannot be removed why would king David ask God to do something that he knew couldn’t be done? Why would David ask God to blot out someone’s name from the book of life if he knew it couldn’t be done?

And finally:
~ Hebrews 10:38
~ Ezekiel 33:12-19
~ Ezekiel 18:21-24
~ 1 Timothy 4:1
~ John 2:11 with John 6:16-22, 66 They-his disciples- believed in Him, then they rejected Him.
~ 2 Timothy 3:16- (Just incase one tries to say that the OT no longer applies to the NT)

What else needs to be said?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Are you giving your approval to brkn1’s theology?

Al-Masih Qam!
Andrew

##** Yes **

 

[JRKH]

Please forgive me if I am repetitive. I just scanned the posts. For me the word faith as a gift of grace from God encompasses the totality of God. I have been saved from my own ignorance and way of perceiving and acting. Faith saves me from myself. Faith gives me the passion to know God more deeply and to act from that relationship with God.
Faith moves me beyond fearful and selfish concerns about death and going to heaven or hell. Those are selfish concerns based on the flesh and my attachment to the flesh as my identity. Faith gives me the passion to move away from myself and to see the beauty of God in moments that may seem meaningless to others.
To be saved is to live now and to know God now. Every moment I am not aware of God and my love for God I am back in the flesh and dead.
I have to be saved from myself every moment just as St. Paul talked about being in the flesh and doing what he did not want to do.
You know the verses better than I do. Faith is the totality of God.
I think that OSAS diminishes God and prevents a deeper understanding. OSAS seems to create division and if a concept creates division and does not enlighten does it bear fruit?

Ronald,
Very Well Said. Thank you.

 

[JRKH]

WOW - - -
Thanks Guys. Especially Grey Pilgrim.
I’m going to spend some time today going over your references.

Of course I believe both brkn1 and Phil to be sincere in their Love for God and for Jesus and don’t want them to feel “ganged up on”, but I sure appreciate the support.
I’m not a chapter and verse man, and I definately don’t care for playing “dueling verses”.
The Gospels and the Epistles need to be looked at in their whole and understood in the context of the time they were written and the intent of the writer.

Peace
James

 

[Fisher]

I wonder how protestants explain this passage:
Mtt 10,22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
To the end…
Almost 5 centuries of contradicting the Scripture is definitely too much.
God bless.

you are saved or you are not its that simple. Eternal security is taught in the word of God (Bible). Read Mat 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them,** I never knew **you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I never knew you he did not say I once knew you or I knew you yesterday or I knew you for a wile He said I never knew you.

See you must be born again

Eph 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:** in whom also after that ye believed**, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” To claim that a believer can lose salvation is to say that one who is a new creature (i.e., born again) in Christ can become an old creature again. There is NO such teaching in the Scriptures. “Once saved, always saved” is Biblically correct. The whole matter is put to rest by Romans 4:5 … “**But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” **

 

[Fisher]

You can know all about someone like say so one like Michael Jeffrey Jordan
Born: 2/17/63 in Brooklyn, N.Y.
High School: Laney (Wilmington, N.C.)
College: North Carolina
Drafted: Chicago Bulls (1984)
Transactions: Signed with Washington Wizards, 9/25/01
Height: 6-6; Weight: 216 lbs.
Honors: Six-time NBA champion (1991-93, 1996-98); MVP (1988, '91, '92, '96, '98); 10-time All-NBA First Team (1987-93, 1996-98); All-NBA Second Team (1985); Defensive Player of the Year (1988); Nine-time All-Defensive First Team (1988-93, 1996-98); Rookie of the Year (1985); 14-time All-Star; All-Star MVP (1988, '96, '98); One of 50 Greatest Players in NBA History ('96); Olympic gold medalist (1984, '92).

and if Mike walked into a room an seen you standing there would he know you?

See Jesue wants a relationship with you He wants to know you.
not a religion. I dont care how much you know about Jesus it wont matter one bit if you stand before him and he dont know you!

 

[JRKH]

you are saved or you are not its that simple. Eternal security is taught in the word of God (Bible). Read Mat 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them,** I never knew **you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I never knew you he did not say I once knew you or I knew you yesterday or I knew you for a wile He said I never knew you.

See you must be born again

Eph 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:** in whom also after that ye believed**, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” To claim that a believer can lose salvation is to say that one who is a new creature (i.e., born again) in Christ can become an old creature again. There is NO such teaching in the Scriptures. “Once saved, always saved” is Biblically correct. The whole matter is put to rest by Romans 4:5 … “**But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” **

While we appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut here I suggest you take the time to read through the posts, or at least skim them.
In particular I would steer you to Grey Pilgrims recent post. (I think it is #97. If not it’s close to that) He offers many Bible references.

Peace
James

 

[JoeyWarren]

brkn1 said; How could Paul declare: “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (2 Tim.4:18), if Paul was not completely sure that he was already permanently saved and completely in the hands of God, even before entering God’s presence? That is OSAS talk from Paul.

Will and Shall are not verb modifiers to indicate an absolute thing is to happen. Will and Shall are futurative and contingency verb modifiers.

The context of

“And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

is very much different from

“And the Lord delivers me from every evil work, and **preserves **me unto his heavenly kingdom, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

The context of shall and will is in essence “a hope”

People have developed a modern slang definition of “Will” and “Shall” that says it is a guarantee and it is going to happen PERIOD. That is not sound at all.

 

[brkn1]

Will and Shall are not verb modifiers to indicate an absolute thing is to happen. Will and Shall are futurative and contingency verb modifiers.

The context of : “And the the Lord (shall deliver) me from every evil work, and (will preserve) me unto His heavenly kingdom.”
(2 Tim. 4:18)

is very much different from: " And the Lord (delivers) me from every evil work, and (preserves) me unto His heavenly kingdom."

The context of shall and will is in essence “a hope”

People have developed a modern slang definition of “Will” and “Shall” that says it is a guarantee and it is going to happen PERIOD. That is not sound at all.

Hi Joey,

I like the word (futurative) that you use in regard to Will and Save.

You also bring in the essence of those two words as being in the context of (a hope) .

My reply would be to define what the Bible says is the absolute essential of what is required for salvation, which is Faith.

(Hebrews 11:1) “Now FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
We see the hope that you pointed to in regards to what FAITH is made out of.
Neither FAITH nor HOPE has any true meaning without both existing together at the same time. There is no need for faith if there is no hope; and hope is useless to anyone without faith. especially in regards to Salvation.

FAITH needs to be further defined as a (substance) or (evidence).

(Hebrews 10:34) “For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing IN yourselves that ye HAVE in Heaven a better and enduring (substance).”

You will immediately go down to the next four verses to confirm the idea of: (cast not away), (might receive the promise),(draw back), which supports your viewpoint.
I go further to the next verse (Hebrews 10:39) as totally negating the idea that Paul is saying that true faith could involve such a possibility of losing that faith.
“But we ARE NOT of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

Jesus told us to store our treasures in Heaven and compared such storage to those treasures we might have on earth.
Jesus said that earthly treasures will get corrupted and lost, but not those treasures we store in Heaven.
IF we could somehow lose that salvation that allows us to store treasures in Heaven, then it follows that we will then have the possibility of losing those treasures in Heaven, IF we can lose the gift of eternal salvation after once possessing it.
The contradiction presented by Jesus’ claim and command in this regard, is proof enough that the IF is an incorrect assumption.
Treasures in Heaven can never be lost, or Jesus would not have told us to store them there for safe keeping. It must follow that the gift of eternal salvation can’t be lost either, or those treasures WILL be lost also.

Your brother in Christ, brkn1

 

[JoeyWarren]

Treasures in Heaven can never be lost, or Jesus would not have told us to store them there for safe keeping. It must follow that the gift of eternal salvation can’t be lost either, or those treasures WILL be lost also.

You don’t know with absolute certainty that you have stored up treasures in heaven. At the very best you can only hope you have stored up treasures in heaven.

 

[JRKH]

Checking out the references listed earlier led me to some more.

James 4:8 - “Draw Close to God and he will draw close to you. Cleanse your hands you sinners; purify your hearts you backsliders.” James is calling for us to work.

In James 5:9-12 he refers to his readers twice as brothers and twice warns them to avoid behavior that will result in their condemnation.

James 5:19-20 My brothers, the case may arise among you of someone straying from the truth and another bringing him back. Remember this: The person who brings a sinner back from his way will save his soul from death and cancel a multitude of sins.

Also look at
1 Peter 1:8-9 “Although you have never seen Him, you love Him, and without seeing, you now believe in Him, and rejoice with inexpressable joy touched with Glory ** because you are achieving faith’s goal, your salvation.**”

1 Peter 1:17 “In prayer you call upon a Father who judges each one justly on the basis of his actions”

1 Peter 5:8 "Stay sober and alert. Your apponent the devil is prowling like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

2 Peter 3:17 "You are forewarned, beloved brothers. Be on your guard lest you be led astray by the error of the wicked and forfeit the security you enjoy.

These seem pretty powerful scriptural evidence against OSAS to me.

 

[brkn1]

You don’t know with absolute certainty that you have stored up treasures in heaven. At the very best you can only hope you have stored up treasures in heaven.

For the sake of argument, I will agree with what you say about myself not being sure that there might be just the slightest treasure in Heaven stored in my name.

Still, there is a problem with the idea that no one has any treasure stored for them after they obtain the initial “state of Grace”. A person in the state of grace should be able to store at least some Heavenly treasure as he /she prays to God and praises and thanks God for that Grace.
The prayers of the saints are called incense to God in Revelation… That qualifies as treasure and that is what God wants us to do as we worship Him in Spirit.

In any case, someone must have treasure in Heaven and if that person should ever fall and lose that state of Grace (salvation), then they have , in effect, lost that Heavenly treasure also.
Jesus compared Heavenly treasure to earthly treasure as not something that can be lost.
Following the logic presented here requires that once a saved person gets the least treasure into Heaven, he can’t become unsaved or that Heavenly treasure is also lost, which contradicts Jesus’ claim that such Heavenly treasure is incorruptible.

 

[brkn1]

Checking out the references listed earlier led me to some more.

Also look at
1 Peter 1:8-9 “Although you have never seen Him, you love Him, and without seeing, you now believe in Him, and rejoice with inexpressable joy touched with Glory because you are achieving faith’s goal, your salvation.”

These seem pretty powerful scriptural evidence against OSAS to me.

I chose these verses because your bible seems to translate the Greek differently than the KJV bible I use:

(1 Peter 1:8-9)KJV
8. “Whom having not seen, ye love; in Whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:”

1. “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.”
   There is quite a difference in meaning in this version, though I can understand where the word “achieving” would make your version more attractive according to your viewpoint.

I’m interested in how your bible version translates the following earlier verse in the same chapter? :

(1 Peter 1:5) 4."…you," 5.“Who are (kept) by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

“kept by the power of God” is God’s work, not our work.

Peter’s salutation also uses the word “Elect” in v.2 of this chapter, which does not provide a good context for anyone seeking a work-based interpretation.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
Checking out the references listed earlier led me to some more.

My translation came from the NAB.
Regardless of the specific translations, you will still note that the verse speaks to receiving the “End of your faith”. Then goes on to declare “Even the…” to me these do not speak to a “done deal” but rather a hope through perseverance.

I’m interested in how your bible version translates the following earlier verse in the same chapter? :

(1 Peter 1:5) 4."…you," 5.“Who are (kept) by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

“kept by the power of God” is God’s work, not our work.

My version is not much different:
"4…you, 5 who are guarded with God’s power through faith; a birth to a salvation which stands ready to be revealed in the last days.

So God keeps us under his protection through faith. Is that His faith in us, or our faith in Him?
The logical assumption is it is our faith in Him.
So what Happens if i lose my faith in Him?

Peter’s salutation also uses the word “Elect” in v.2 of this chapter, which does not provide a good context for anyone seeking a work-based interpretation.

Which only proves that he, Peter is speaking to an audience of Christians and he is trying to teach and admonish them to stand firm in their Faith so as not to fall away and lose their salvation.

For the present I will assume that the other verses I referenced as well as the ones that Grey-Pilgrim posted are nurishing food for thought.

As always
Peace my Friend
James

 

[JRKH]

There have been quite a number of verses and passags posted here that point each way.
So it is clear that God WANTS us to be saved. He WANTS to save us, but that He cannot, or will not, if we don’t choose to be saved. Or to put it a little differently, If we choose not to be saved.
It is just as clear from some of the verses that, we can still turn our back on our salvation. We can fall away; We can toss our salvation away; We can die spiritually.

Given that dicotomy of statements within the Holy Bible, what are we to discern? The conclusion can only be that which the earliest Church Fathers taught from the very beginning nearly 2000 years ago.
That we are saved only by our faith in Jesus Christ, and we can do nothing to improve upon what God has offered us. That so long as we remain strong in that faith, even unto death, we shall attain that reward which is the salvation which God gives to us freely. However, if we turn away from God; if we do not guard and strengthen that faith and salvation which God has given to us, He will deal with us justly and that justice could well result in His cutting us off from His body.

Now I may not have precisely presented the Church’s teaching on this issue, but I do the best I can.

The upshot of all of this is that we may not be able to “prove” worthy of salvation, but we sure can “prove” unworthy. So we must:
**“Stay sober and alert. Your apponent the devil is prowling like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.” **(1 Peter 5:8)(NAB)

 

[wisdomseeker]

you are saved or you are not its that simple. Eternal security is taught in the word of God (Bible). Read Mat 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

**22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
****23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew ****you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.I never knew you he did not say I once knew you or I knew you yesterday or I knew you for a wile He said I never knew you.
See you must be born again

Eph 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:** in whom also after that ye believed**, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” To claim that a believer can lose salvation is to say that one who is a new creature (i.e., born again) in Christ can become an old creature again. There is NO such teaching in the Scriptures. “Once saved, always saved” is Biblically correct. The whole matter is put to rest by Romans 4:5 … “**But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” **

How do you explain those passages in bold? who is to know for sure they have salvation since they all believe in the Lord, do work for the Lord as the passage says. doesnt many among do these things? who is to say for sure i am pleasing the Lord for i am doing His will? so we can only hope some of us are.

what do understand as being born again?

 

[JRKH]

Is Judas Saved?

For in Acts we have:
For he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry." (Acts 1:17)
and
And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." (Acts 1 : 24-25)

Judas is clearly shown to have had a part in the ministry of the Apostles. He followed Jesus and accepted Jesus, though he misunderstood Jesus mission. Yet, by turning away from Jesus and betraying him Judas fell.

Peace
James

 

[guanophore]

(Hebrews 10:34) “For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing IN yourselves that ye HAVE in Heaven a better and enduring (substance).”

You will immediately go down to the next four verses to confirm the idea of: (cast not away), (might receive the promise),(draw back), which supports your viewpoint.
I go further to the next verse (Hebrews 10:39) as totally negating the idea that Paul is saying that true faith could involve such a possibility of losing that faith.
“But we ARE NOT of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

I agree, to the extent that each one chooses to remain with Christ. But, the text is clear that it is possible to cast away, be cut off, or draw back unto perdition.

 Jesus told us to store our treasures in Heaven and compared such storage to those treasures we might have on earth.

Jesus said that earthly treasures will get corrupted and lost, but not those treasures we store in Heaven.

There is no implication there that we will inherit the promise if we draw back unto perdition.

1 Peter 1:3-5
By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Not every person comes into their inheritance, even though it may be preserved for them. A person can have an untimely death, or a person can squander the inheritance, just as the prodigal son did. Salvation is not revealed until the last time.

IF we could somehow lose that salvation that allows us to store treasures in Heaven, then it follows that we will then have the possibility of losing those treasures in Heaven, IF we can lose the gift of eternal salvation after once possessing it.

I agree that one cannot lose the eternal gift of salvation once posessing it. However, our posession is incomplete until that final day. Up until we pass from this life into the next, the possiblity exists that we can be cut off. No one can snatch us out of his hand, but we can sure jump out.

Phil 3:12-16

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren,** I do not consider that I have made it my own;** but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

This is why we conceive that we have not yet arrived, and in humility “strain forward” so that we will inherit the very great and precious promises.

It is not that we “lose” what we have been given, it is more a matter of not yet attaining the full measure of the promise. Jesus makes it clear that some seeds fall on the ground, sprout, then wither.

The contradiction presented by Jesus’ claim and command in this regard, is proof enough that the IF is an incorrect assumption.
Treasures in Heaven can never be lost, or Jesus would not have told us to store them there for safe keeping. It must follow that the gift of eternal salvation can’t be lost either, or those treasures WILL be lost also.

No, this is not a correct conclusion. The treasures in heaven are imperishable, but we on this earth are not. It is possible to become separated from the inheritance. It might be more useful to think of salvation as a river. All are invited to enter. Some enter all the way, some only to the ankle. Some go into the water, then get out and walk away. As long as we are on this earth, the possibility to return remains.

Your brother in Christ, brkn1

May you come to the treasures you have stored up!

 

[guanophore]

In any case, someone must have treasure in Heaven and if that person should ever fall and lose that state of Grace (salvation), then they have , in effect, lost that Heavenly treasure also.

Jesus compared Heavenly treasure to earthly treasure as not something that can be lost.

Following the logic presented here requires that once a saved person gets the least treasure into Heaven, he can’t become unsaved or that Heavenly treasure is also lost, which contradicts Jesus’ claim that such Heavenly treasure is incorruptible.

The treasure will remain in heaven, but the person will not come into posession of it. It is incorruptible, as everything that in heaven is so. But we are still on earth, and therefore, corruptible. I agree that once a person is saved, they get the least treasure in heaven, but the salvation that began in us at baptism is incomplete while we are on this earth.

Rev 3:3-6
3 Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and** I will not blot his name out of the book of life**; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

A person who becomes justified in the sight of God has their name written in the Book of Life. If he does not keep what he received and heard, then his name will be blotted out.

I chose these verses because your bible seems to translate the Greek differently than the KJV bible I use:

(1 Peter 1:8-9)KJV
8. “Whom having not seen, ye love; in Whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:”

1. “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.”
   There is quite a difference in meaning in this version, though I can understand where the word “achieving” would make your version more attractive according to your viewpoint.

I’m interested in how your bible version translates the following earlier verse in the same chapter? :

(1 Peter 1:5) 4."…you," 5.“Who are (kept) by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

“kept by the power of God” is God’s work, not our work.

Peter’s salutation also uses the word “Elect” in v.2 of this chapter, which does not provide a good context for anyone seeking a work-based interpretation.

Have you been erroneously informed that Catholics believe that salvation is “works-based”?

It is true that being kept by the power of God is His work, but there is also work that we do along with Him. Many leave v. 10 out of the forumula in Eph. 2:8-10.

God is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. We have a responsibility to work together with God’s grace, so that we can come into our inheritance. Salvation does not occur to us passively.

2 Peter 1:4-7
5 For this very reason **make every effort **to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

Any human effort, apart from God’s grace, will yield no virtue, would you not agree?